Hey Guys,
Good site. You all have some pretty good info here!!! I searched the archives here and poked around at USG.com, but can’t find a solution to my problem.
I’ve got an updated 2 story commercial building ca. 1945 with retail space on the first floor and an apartment on the second. The ceiling is 5/8″ type “x” GWB, on 1×4 stripping, on 2×10 floor joists (no insulation), with 3/4″ 1×6 diag. subfloor, with 1x T&G pine flooring. All electrical is in flex PVC conduit.
The sound transmission is horrible! You can literally hear conversations between floors. What do you guys think would be the easiest most cost effective solution? I’m thinking drop ceiling w/ insulation or ??? Wasn’t there a T&G board out there years ago that looked like frozen white spaghetti? Does anyone remember it from classrooms? Something along this line would allow me to just install extension cover plates on all the j-boxes and not have to switch out all my light fixtures. BTW I really hate drop ceilings!, but if it has to be it has to be.
Thanks
Replies
Well I`ve done work in condos and had to repair floors in some cases and they had by code poured cement over the floors i think for fire code regulations ,it was like an 1`` to 1 1/2`` thick and it laso worked well towards sound proofing( just a little tid bit of info) If the floors above are open underneath i would think about adding a double layer of 5/8 blue board and that would also go along way to sound proofing.
The 1x pine floor is really nice heart pine from the 1940's. No concrete topping allowed.
Drop ceilings do very little. The Journal of Light Construction in the current issue has an excellent article on sound abatement.
Thanks, I'll search that out. I'm really looking for a way to do something from below (ceiling treatment). Both spaces are finished and in use. I wonder if the"spaghetti board" was asbestos?
my experience is different... drop ceiling (standard commercial 2x2 0r 2x4 tiles ) with the 6" fiberglass insulation (in 2x4 tile size) has a huge effect on sound... case in point... had a standard commercial metal building (wrapped with the standard white backed insulation) that in a rain storm you couldn't talk on the phone or have a conversation... put in a dropped ceiling maybe an 18" drop laid the fiberglass on top and it was a huge difference...... don't know if it's code now... but at the time it was ok... where ever lights were we just put in 2 duplex recepticals in the 4" boxes... put plug in pig tails on all the drop in lights (2x4 lights) so that we could move lights at will...
p
That was my thinking as well on the sound issue. I just really don't like drop ceilings and don't like the added expense of new elec. fixtures. BTW I've only got 4 1/2" between the existing ceiling and the top of window casing at one wall.
edit to add: that's a great tip on the duplex/ plug-in pigtail for future changes, it is a rental office/retail space.
Edited 3/19/2006 7:06 pm ET by PhilGam
frozen white spaghetti?
It was called Tectum, IIRC, and was wood shreds (a lot like the old excelsior used for packing) covered with glue and pressed into panels. Like you say, used a lot in schools and such. I haven't seen it in a while.
Thanks Danno,
That's the stuff http://www.tectum.com/ I'll contact them Monday. It's wood fibers bound with portland cement.
I've used Homasote products for sound abatement with success. I built a home office for a guy once who had 4 boys and wanted to be able to work in relative silence. It turned out really well - the boys could be playing lacrosse in the family room next door and you could pretty much hear nothing from the office
Check this site:
http://www.homasote.com/sb.html
Thanks for the link. So I assume you installed it under the drywall? It says you can paint it with latex paint for a finish. I wonder about the joints? I'll have to go have a looksee tomorrow.
Phil,
If you add a layer of soundboard and another layer of 5/8" drywall to the existing ceiling, it will help a lot. To really solve the sound transmission, you will need very good detailing at your (extended) ceiling boxes.
Ideally, the boxes are sealed at the rear with caulk from the inside of the boxes, and at the ceiling line with a solid plate gasketed to ceiling, fixture wires passing through caulk at a nipple in the center. It depends on your fixtures, but those boxes will be a weak link in a pretty good ceiling, so detailing them well is essential.
Bill
Thanks for the sealing tip, I would have not thought that to be much of an issue. My back hurts already thinking of drywalling a 1000 sf. ceiling. So 1/2" homosote & 1/2" drywall, can you get a 1" trim ring (extension) for the j-boxes? I do know you can get a 1/2- 3/4".
I would like to find a material that wouldn't have to be finished, but that may be asking to much?
Edited 3/19/2006 6:08 pm ET by PhilGam
Do a google on - STC CEILING -You will get lots of information the performace of specific changes.Here is one.http://www.sdsc.edu/~nadeau/Rebuilding/About/AboutSoundproofingCeilings.htm
Ah-Ha it's all in knowing the lingo.
That's what's so nice about this internet forum thingy!!!
Thanks
Phil,1" trim ring is easy to get at a real supply house. You don't need the Homasote on the ceiling; regular cheap "celotex"-looking sound board will do fine, and it weighs less, too. It functions as a constrained layer, somewhat decoupling the two sheets of DW and damping them also.Bill
Similar to a thermal-break. A conc. blk. wall is cold for the "same reason" it carries sound.
Bayou66
I've worked with 7/8" hat channels before. I assume the resilient ("z"?) furring strips are similar, 1-1 1/4". I wonder what the Homosote(looks like super high density pressed paperboard) would look like cut into 4x4 panels with 45* routered edges, painted as per manuf., screwed to RFS that were screwed to the exst. clg. @ 24"oc.? Big ceiling tiles? that would be an 1 3/4" so a normal j-box could be mounted to the exst. one. I have a fish'in buddy that's an electrician. I'll call him tomorrow.
Sorry for a house keeping ?, but, when I come back to the forumn this thread is not listed, even after hitting show all messages. I have to do a search for it to show?
Edited 3/21/2006 12:12 pm ET by PhilGam
re: cutting homosote into 2x2 panels ...
Isn't that effectively the same as the 12" t&g staple-up ceiling tiles?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
No, that would be if you cut it into 1x1 pieces.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
smarta$$.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Concerning your back--
You can rent a drywall lift for not much money and I've found they are well worth it. Put the sheet on the lift, tilt it flat and crank it to ceiling, simple.
and Splat
Quote:
"....Ideally, the boxes are sealed at the rear with caulk from the inside of the boxes, and at the ceiling line with a solid plate gasketed to ceiling, fixture wires passing through caulk at a nipple in the center...."
Check out the attached photo:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid202/p2093cec73ba263fa15e5042841a37667/efc4e9eb.jpg
Gez!!! sloppy drywall work! I popped one of the fixtures off. There is at least 3/4"-1" of open space around the j-box. So I'm thinking stuffing insulation all arond the box then following the above advice.
Phil
That is illegal and unsafe the way that ceiling box is set. It also looks overfilled in the photo. I'd be removing it and replacing with a deep plastic 4" round box. Once you decide on your sandwich at the ceiling plane, you could do this to all the boxes and be both legal and at the proper height without box extenders.Check out the green glue mentioned in a recent post; it sounds promising.Bill
Bill
That was my first thought. How in the h*ll did this pass code. There are only 10 ceiling monted fixtures, so not that big of a deal. It looks to me like they stripped out the ceiling w/ 1x4's and left the old (as in 1945 dark green) J-Boxes at the original joist face, reused some of the old conduit and all the new was PVC. I'm going to get my fishin'/ elec. buddy over for a look-see! The boxes being overloaded??? There was what looked to me just rolled up extra wire? Each conduit run off of the box had 3-4 wires per run. I'm thinking insulate around box, caulk all inside box holes/ conduit connections, cover plate w/ pig-tail to fixture with sealed ceiling plate? Then one of the systems I mentioned above.
Anyway looks like we found the sound problem aye! :-)
The best way to reduce sound transmission is to reduce the contact that allows vibration to conduct its way thru. So, the best fix is resilient furring (strips at 24" o.c. or better) and another layer of gyp bd. Make sure strips are installed per spec., and you may want to have the system evaluated for the added weight by a licensed CA structural engineer. Another layer over the existing layer could help (offset seams of gyp. bd.). There is a new gypsum product I have seen that has a tiny metal layer that is designed to reduce sound as well.
Hi Phil We started working with a new product called quietrock and we have had great results with it for solving sound transfer problems. There web site is QuietSolution.com
Couldn't get anything even from google. If you know the site cut & paste a link.
Thanks
http://www.quietsolution.com/Products/Construction___Building/QuietRock/quietrock.html
DG/Builder
Drop ceiling won't help much anyway.
I'd suggest checking out whether the conduit is the problem. It may be that plugging the conduit ends with electrician's putty is all that's needed.
If that isn't it, another layer of drywall is probably the best next step. Probably installed on resiliant channels running at right angles to the joists.
happy?
>You can literally hear conversations between floors.
If that's the case there must be simple air transmission.
> The ceiling is 5/8" type "x" GWB, on 1x4 stripping, on 2x10 floor joists (no insulation), with 3/4" 1x6 diag. subfloor, with 1x T&G pine flooring.
Seems pretty typical. Are there any penetrations? heat pipe through the floors, duct work, shared duct lines, recessed lights, any ceiling fixture.
If the air can get through sound will too. Its amazing how much a difference it makes for the sound between rooms with a door closed versus a door open a 1/4". At a 1/4" the door might as well be wide open. You can put up the heaviest most elaborate sound proofing but a small air hole between areas will instantly make it worthless.
It all depends on what good enough is. If you just want to get rid of the voices then some spray foam might get you there.
If you want to get rid of footsteps then your life gets complicated.
spat
You can't hear what is being said, but you hear the mumbled conversation or the drone of a TV. Yes there are three surface mouted fixtures in that locale and I know for sure they are unsealed. The elec. putty @ the conduit and caulking the boxes would be an easy 1-2hr job. Thanks
I have an insulation supplier getting me prices on the 1" Tectum panels and (2)12"x48"x5/8" Armstrong accoustical planks which slide into a track which will be mounted to resilient furring channels. I'll post the results.
Thanks all for the good info.
Phil
Check out http://www.jlconline.com
They had an article in this months issue about sound proofing and sound reduction. Sealing transmission paths and decoupling were mentioned. They also gave recomendations for retrofits for several different levels of noise reduction, and some very good information on what it all means.
Dave
Dave
I'll read it tonight
Thanks
I did a lot of research when building a 'soundproof' room in my basement. There's a lot of information out there, one forum that is particularly useful is AVSForum.com - they have a forum on building a home theater. Anyhow I followed their advice and and astonished by my results - my room is almost dead silent - there's next to no sound bleeding from the rooms upstairs, including a bathroom.There are many things you can do, but if you do only one thing, I'd suggest another layer of drywall with a layer of Green Glue between the 2 sheets. The stuff is great, relatively low cost for the result obtained and is highly recommended by sound pros. More info can be found at http://www.audioalloy.com/.
Edited 3/20/2006 6:28 pm ET by bclasen
Sprayed in foam.