I am looking for educated comments and advice concerning electrical contractor repair practices, regarding sliced wires and home runs. My situation is as follows:
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My all-electric “Gold Medallion Home†was built in the late 1960’s and was wired to specifications set by the local power company. Electric Heating, hot water and appliances were serviced by dedicated wiring. I recently had a severe electrical fire in my home caused by an outside power transformer failure.
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As a temporary fix, in order to get me back into my house in the shortest amount of time, my electrician cut and spliced approximately 20 wires into sporadically placed junction boxes in my garage/workshop ceiling. To meet code, these junction boxes are very visible and accessible.
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My insurance company is now refusing to pay to complete the job by replacing the spliced wires with home runs which I had prior to the fire. My insurance company feels that the additional costs to move forward are unreasonable. The electrician should have just done permanent home runs from the start and if the current repair meets code, which it does, should be acceptable.
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My home owner’s policy states that the company is liable to “repair the property with equivalent materials, bringing such to the same general condition as existed just prior to the loss or replace the property with substantially identical propertyâ€.
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My analogy is if a homeowner had seamless vinyl siding prior to a fire, they should not have to settle replacement siding showing seams. I feel that 20 sporadically placed white junction boxes covers in my sheetrock do not constitute a finished grade ceiling and spliced wires should not be considered equivalent to home-runs (I have already had one failure which was immediately repaired).
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My personal feeling is my electrical contractor did what he was supposed to do. He got my family back into our home and my place of work, in the shortest amount of time by installing the temp junction boxes. Now that my home/office is livable and functional, the splices should be replaced with home-runs bringing the home back to the conditions that existed prior to the fire.
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Has anyone else spliced home-runs as a temporary or permanent fix and why?
If you were my contractor what would you have done?
What would you do if you were in my situation?
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No information gathered from this web site will be treated as being the opinion of an ‘expert witness, and I recognize that I do not have anyone’s permission to present such information as evidence in any type of legal dispute.
Thank you all in advance for your opinions, comments, help and debates.
Replies
This being romex, I'd think long and hard about the amount of demolition and disruption it would take to restore all those home runs to unspliced condition. Unlike conduit, you have to rip the place to shreds from the garage to the first box on each of those 20 circuits. This is a very major mess for what is an aesthetic rather than a functional issue.
If this were my house and I were doing it myself, the first thing I'd look at is the possibility of putting in a sub-panel in the garage to which those 20 lines could be routed without the little splice boxes. A single feed from the main to the new panel, all in the garage, would make an acceptably neat final product, and the new panel location may even be more convenient, especially if the existing main panel is on the exterior.
All this is very hard to say just speculating over the internet, without seeing the actual building. BTW, were your neighbors also hit by the transformer problem? How have they fared with insurance, if so?
-- J.S.
I don't think your vinyl siding example applies. If you spliced the siding you would SEE it. Who's going to see this wiring splicing. The issue is that it is safe. And if modern code says it is then I wouldn't worry about it. Like John says your going to have far more things to worry about if they have to rip your place apart to make uninterupted runs."The purpose of life is rapture. Here and now"
Thanks for your replies,
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I also agree with John that a sub-panel would be more aesthetically pleasing and probably ½ the cost compared to re-wire demo and reconstruction. But this is a tough one way beyond aesthetics.
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I have a concern regarding NEC code 314.29, stating that all junction boxes must be accessible. I understand the logic and extra expense in having to locate a buried splice if there is a failure. But the code seems to imply that there is a safety concern. Otherwise I could bury the boxes with fire rated sheet rock.
Would a sub-panel be more reliable than a splice?
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Considering that the most likely place to have a failure is in a junction box, I feel like I now have 20 potential failures where I had none prior to the fire. Also, because the junction boxes must be visible, where none existed before, there may be an actual diminution of the homes value to home appraisers or potential home buyers.
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Unfortunately for me, my house was the only one hit by the power surge. It’s one for the story books. A Mylar balloon from a town parade wrapped itself around a transformer causing a down wire and all its voltage to go directly to my service box located inside my garage/workshop. I do not know why my insurance company is giving me a hard time when it is so obvious that I was not at fault.
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Since I hired my own electrician, they are placing blame on him for doing a temp fix.
Any fuel for fighting them would be appreciated.
> Would a sub-panel be more reliable than a splice?
Both are so very reliable that It's hard to speculate on which would have the advantage. Whatever it is, the difference is too small to bother considering. My guess is that since breakers are more complex than splices, and do go bad sometimes, that the splices would be better. But as I said, not by enough to influence the decision.
As it is, if you have an attic over this, 4Lorn1's idea of just flipping the boxes would be an excellent solution. The boxes are already a sunk cost, a sub panel would be an upgrade. The only consideration as far as resale goes is that this would make it more difficult to convert the garage into finished space. Only you can determine how likely that is to be of any importance.
-- J.S.
quote:
"The only consideration as far as resale goes is that this would make it more difficult to convert the garage into finished space. Only you can determine how likely that is to be of any importance".
Another great point!
Thanks and keep them coming.
See, you've gotten some pretty good replies here from experts. [Told you so.] Welcome to the forum.
Obviously you've had some damage and it's the insurance company's duty to restore it. You have two objectives: 1) get it restored ASAP in order to regain use of your home office and 2) get it restored to the original condition. #1 is like the insurance paying for a rental car or a motel. #2 would necessitate tearing down half the structure simply to run some new home runs. I don't think that is practical.
~Peter
Doesn't jc have some issue of liability with the utility co?? and not just his insurance?I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
As far as the insurance claim goes, you made a small boo-boo. Now the ball is in your corner.
You had the electrician do a "temp" fix to get you in your house as fast as possible. The insurance company doesn't pay for "temp" fixes like this, and then come back and pay to have it re-done correctly. They pay for one or the other. Most likely, you will have to have the wiring re-done at your expense, and try hard to get the insurance company to pay the difference between what they would have paid and what they did pay. Or you can leave everything as is and live with it (no expense that way).
You should have ran all of this by the insurance adjuster BEFORE the electrical work was done. Now, you have a fight on your hands. Insurance companies DO NOT like letting go of money.
This info is coming at ya from experience. As far as the wiring installation itself, listen to the rest of these guys. They know what they are talking about.James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
The insurance co is supposed to pay for "temp" fixes to make the home habitable, or pay for lodging elsewhere. I don't think the ins co is off the hook.
You must first get a definition of "temp fix" and make it fit into their version of "habitable". I have never once been able to get an insurance company to pay for a "temp kitchen" hookup (temp sink and stove hookups) when I was rebuilding a fire damaged kitchen. They would pay X amount for the kitchen repairs, and if the cost of the temp stuff, along with the actual remodeling/repairs exceeded their payout, then the homeowner was liable for the extra costs. It is going to be based on what your policy states about such repairs. Most of the people around here have minimum coverage for their homes due to the extreme high cost of homeowers insurance. They are trying to protect themselves against major catastrophic losses, and are not too worried about the smaller claims. Most have deductibles around $1,000.00 or more, so repairs for small items are not in their best interest anyway.
I have dealt with insurance companies for many years, and the only temp fixes they would even consider would be things like covering damaged roofs or siding (mainly to prevent further damage, not to make home habitable). They never paid for temp electrical repairs, or temp plumbing repairs and then paid for permanent repairs. They just pay X amount for the repairs.
When the issue of water and electric come up, if the home doesn't have it, then it is not habitable. Whether or not your policy covers temp living quarters is a policy by policy basis. Not all have it. If the policy does have it, then it will boil down to the insurance adjuster and the homeowner coming to an ammicable agreement - ahead of time. After the fact is kinda late.
And this is what leads most homeowners to court to fight the insurance companies. James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
I think that what is typical in the policies is emergency repairs to prevent futher damage.That is not what was done here.Now there something else. Most polices also pay for replacement housing while the house is being repaired.Now it could be argued that by doing tempary repairs that they could return to the house sooner and thus reduce the replacement housing cost.But that should be worked out in advanced.
I don't believe the HO stated what region of the country he lived in but, if it is a cold weather region, the temporary repairs might well have saved the water system and fixtures from freezing, thus preventing further damage.
Formerly just 'Don' but not the 'Glassmaster Don' or the lower-case 'don'.
Bill, Ernie & Don
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Great comments and more fuel for my arguments. Keep them coming.
Just FYI, I live in <!----><!----><!---->New Jersey<!----><!---->. It was 5 degrees the other night and we are just recovering from a blizzard.
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I seriously want to thank everyone here on this post for their continuing time, knowledge advice and support. I already feel more knowledgably and confident in arguing my case with the appropriate parties.
Also, In case you are not aware of it, this Taunton Press Forum should really be appreciated . I have been booted off of Mike Holts Forum for asking the same questions and yesterday when I registered for the ECN Forum received the following reply:
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Re: New Registration request
I know the question you want to ask, and it's not appropriate at ECN either.<!---->
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I guess their moderators are also clairvoyants! <!---->
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If you’re ever in my town, drinks are on me!
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JC
20 boxes is a bit too much.
Both of those forums are for professional electricians. No wonder you got booted out.
Now I have this:Say you get a ding in the fender of your '94 Ford Capri. 1/4" deep and an 1" wide and some paint flaked off. The shop could pull out the dent or fill it with Bondo and spray it with some appropriate paint.
But it won't be a perfect match. And, besides, the metal is fatigued. So they search around and find a spare fender in a warehouse in Lexington, Kentucky. It takes two weeks to get it delivered. They install it and you find that the Mountain Sea Blue still doesn't match because that fender has been sitting in a cardboard box inside a warehouse for ten years whereas the rest of the car has been sitting in whatever there is of the New Jersey sun and the rain and the mosquitos for the same years.
So you insist upon being made whole. Now you need an entirely new car. I think you're asking too much. Don't mis-interpet my analogy too far. A good splice in a box may be 99% as good as an unbroken wire whereas 50% capacity would be sufficient.
Maybe you could insist on something less than the 20 boxes. But the added expense of tearing down drywall and replacing the entire homerun and then resheetrocking and painting would not make you much more than 1% better.
We all have insurance premiums to pay. I have spoken.
~Peter
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Your point is well taken though and thanks for the laughs.<!---->
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if the splices are soldered, and wire nutted, I wouldn't worry about the splice ..
Actually, there is some evidence that soldering degrades the quality of the splice. Tends to fail over the long haul (eg, after 40-50 years).
the electrical code summary I have says that a solder joint is still the best, of course you have to use the proper materials and methods ..
The problem is that solder can crystalize over time. Especially in your classical slightly-too-hot light fixture box, the solder will crystalize as the different parts of the alloy migrate into clumps.
I think you need a lawyer.
JC,
John gives good advice.
My opinion--the spliced wires are functionally equivalent to unspliced runs. If the splices are properly made, the circuits with the splices are no more prone to any future trouble than an unspliced cable. Because this is a garage, the presence of blank cover plates isn't the issue it'd be in living space.
However, there are some other considerations here:
1. does the wall or ceiling in which the splice boxes are located separate the garage from the house? If so, it is probably fire-rated.
Various codes limit the area of openings in a fire-rated wall. For instance, there can't be more than xx square inches of opening per 100 square feet of wall. An electrical box (even a steel one with a steel cover plate) is considered an opening in the fire-rated wall system. There are also limitations or prohibitions to having electrical boxes opening to opposite sides of the wall within a certain horizontal distance (usually in the same stud bay).
2. is the original branch circuit wiring copper or aluminum?
Aluminum branch circuit wiring (for 15 and 20 amp circuits) was used from the late '60s to the early '70s. Making the connection from the old aluminum conductors to copper wire is an expensive job to do correctly.
Proper Al to Cu splicing requires specialized materials and tooling (AMP's Copalum system) to meet Consumer Products Safety Commission criteria for safety. It's usually more cost-effective in the long run to replace the aluminum wiring with copper. There are techniques that can be used as stop-gap measures to splice Al to Cu, but the Copalum system is the only recognized method.
3. if the effects of the fire (heat, soot, or the water used to put it out) touched any part of the wiring system, that part should be examined visually and tested to verify that it is undamaged.
Soot in particular can be almost invisible, and yet coat cables, wires, and the terminal screws of an outlet, switch, fixture, or equipment. The residue can compromise electrical insulation effectiveness and cause problems. These problems can appear soon after the fire, or later.
If none of these considerations apply, I'd say that what you imagined was going to be temp repair is now the permanent one, as far as the insurance co. is concerned.
Is your beef with the multitude of blank cover plates, or are you concerned with the splices? If the latter, just make sure that the electrician did the job right, then don't worry about it.
If I was checking the splices, I'd do some visual spot checks, then I'd do voltage drop testing on each circuit using specialized testers (see the online extra "More on old wiring" on the FHB website).
If you want more info on testing possibly fire-damaged wiring, e-mail me. I've done some of that work, and the test equipment and experience to interpret the results aren't common, and don't come cheap.
Good luck--
Cliff
Cliff,
Thank you very much for your time and excellent comments.
I truly appreciate your comment regarding fire rated wall openings. The garage is attached to my house and the ceiling separates the garage from my master bedroom where I sleep. I will research this with my local fire code inspector. My garage is 13 x 20 with approximately 20 junction boxes in the ceiling. Maybe this will come into play.
My original branch circuit wiring is copper and my electrician did have megometer testing performed to check the insulation integrity.
My real beef is that I am not getting equal quality to what I had prior to my fire, which every homeowner should be entitled to in their insurance coverage.
I am concerned that the visible boxes or even an extra sub-panel exposes the history of the fire, making potential buyers unsure and therefore diminishing the home value. I have confirmed this with several Realtors.
Also, I do feel that the overall integrity of my dedicated wires have been breeched and potential problems exists where none existed before. These boxes are located directly below where I sleep and I already did have one spark and fail.
I have been searching previous posts on the safety issues regarding spliced wires and their related codes. It seems that there are very strong opinions and endless debates over the safety and quality comparisons between the splice and the home-run.
The following is from member PM22 whom in posting 46282.63 has some great comments which must be taken into consideration:
“Splices are always less dependable than an unbroken wire or cable. If there is a problem, 99% of the time, it will be in the splice. That is why splices need to be accessible -- so they can be inspected. In the rare case when the cable is punctured by a nail or piffen screw, the insulation scraped off by a burr left on conduit cuts or even a manufacturing defect, then troubleshooting will require access to both ends of each piece of cable.<!----><!---->
Let's look deeper into the mechanics of a splice, typically done with a wire nut. Do you pretwist? Imagine a stack of 1963 pennies. Each flat surface is making full contact with the next flat surface. This is the condition of an unspliced wire. Now arrange two or three or four of these pennies side by side, grouped. They are touching only at one mathematical point. The contact area in a splice, 3 dimensional, would still be only a twisted straight line or helix or spiral. A lot less surface area contact than an unbroken wire. [How about hexagonal shaped wires?]<!---->
In a wirenut, there will be some conductance between the copper conductors and the steel spring inside the wirenut. You can analyze this to your heart's content but remember you are involving dis-similar metals and in damp conditions, you get corrosion, different rates of expansion in heat and so on.<!---->
This brings up the subject of the integrity of the insulation. In an intact wire, the insulation is continuous, providing not only electrical insulation but also protection from the elements. In a splice, the protection is interrupted exposing the copper to the atmosphere, and in case of flooding and hurricanes, to water. In a dry area, this isn't much of a problem for a long time but it still must be inspected. <!---->
Also bring up the point about heating and cooling cycles, especially if daughter has a hair dryer [don't understand this - hair will naturally dry itself in an hour or two]. Again the heating and expansion will have a more deleterious effect on a splice than an intact, un-manipulated piece of wire.”
Thanks again for your reply and wishes--
I wouldn't worry about the integrity of splices. The one sparking raises my eyebrow as to the workmanship of the job done so far but this is likely more to do with a single lapse than a chronic situation. Unless otherwise indicated.A high quality wire nut connection properly applied is designed to exceed the electrical characteristics of the wire itself. Copper wire has a round cross-section but not for long. A good connection has something close to half an inch of stripped wires run parallel and them deformed together. The contact areas are not mathematical points or lines. They have considerable width. The contact area is larger than the cross-section of the wire itself.Used to be this would get taped up or soldered and taped. Now a wire nut makes the mechanical connection and insulates the assembly. The spring in the wire nut is square in cross section and is plated to limit corrosion. Merrette makes a nut with a copper plated spring I like just because it seems and sounds 'right'. The spring expands while winding round the copper wires and and binds them together tightly. The square edges dig into copper greatly increasing the grip of the spring and the contact areas. Good quality wire nuts have a strong insulating cap. One of the reasons I like "Scotchlock IIs". Their thick caps are very sturdy and resistant to wear, wires move and vibrate as they are loaded and unloaded, and the flexible skirts eliminate 'shiners', exposed copper at a connection and take up little extra room. Most major brands are good but, as with most trades, everyone has their favorites. Less logic in it than sentimental and emotional attachment.Used to be the springs were molded tightly into place along their length. What they called a 'dead spring'. The spring couldn't expand much. Heat cycling sometimes loosened connections. Now all the major brands have a space in the plastic around the spring. This allows the spring to expand at the grouped wires are twisted in place and to freely expand and contract as the wires 'breath'. As the conductors contract while cooling the spring takes the slack and keeps the connection tight.Generally corrosion is not an issue. There are silicone filled nuts that give extra corrosion resistance. These are popular and a good idea in chemical plants and near pool chlorinizers and similar. Some are rated for direct burial. A very rough environment.The one weakness in these connections is human error and mechanical abuse. Proper use of connectors, to keep the cables connected to the box and not pulling on the electrical connections, and staples is important and often neglected.
nuttin like a nice safe connection...........................I ain't even goin there!I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
JC,
You're welcome, happy to help.
The fact that the electrician used a megger to evaluate the wring is excellent. It's the tool for that job. It's an instrument most often used to test the insulation on large motor windings, so residential-only electricians don't typically use it.
As far as the old post to the effect that "if a circuit fails, it's probably at a splice", ja that's right. But please don't infer the contrapositive (or whatever in the heck it is) to be true--that all splices fail. 4lorn1 is right on the money about modern wirenuts and especially the Scotchlock. Properly done, I believe there's more copper-to-copper contact in a good "compression connector" splice (i.e., a wirenut) than in the cross-section of the original conductor.
When I make splices that have to be bomb-proof, I use a crimp-on connector system by Ideal/Buchanan. It's a soft copper sleeve that's crimped onto a well-twisted splice. The crimping is done with a special 4-way indent crimp tool (the C-24). Then a special insulator cap snaps on. It's an "irreversible" connection. With a dab of silicone caulk or conductivenon-flammable grease in the splice cap, it's moisture resistant.
I'm not saying that having the runs replaced is wrong, it's just that in my opinion, the splices do provide wiring equivalent to the home runs. If you want to eliminate the splices because they raise concerns, it'll probably be at your expense. Or maybe you just need to kick it up another level or two at the insurance company.
Also--don't know where you live, you haven't provided any info in your profile. But in California, real estate laws require the seller to disclose anything that may affect the value of the property. So your concern about the many j-boxes possibly tipping off a buyer about the fire is kind of interesting. If the building is repaired, why should anyone care about an old fire? I've seen plentyof houses where there's evidence of an old fire (like scorched but not strucurally compromised joists) that the current owner has no idea of. If the damage has been repaired, who cares?
Best of luck,
Cliff
That was a referral to one of my old posts. I hope I didn't imply that wire nuts were unsafe. I just wanted to make the point that an unspliced, intact wire is better than a splice. Simply because there is more that can go wrong.
4Lorn,I still stand by my geometrical argument. The area of a straight line is still zero although arguably more than that of a point. Sure the wires may be flattened somewhat and thus increase the contact area but I allege that there is still a contact between two surfaces which would be vulnerable to contamination. Furthermore, the insulation barrier is broken which may allow those little electrons to drip out and mischievous oxygen molecules to sneak in an do their thing. But, over all, splices are necessary or else we couldn't get anything done.
~Peter
We specialize in these repairs.
I cannot comment here.
If you would like to discuss this further, email me and then we can talk about this on the telephone.
[email protected]
carpenter in transition
Code, and common sense, demands the junction boxes be accessible. From the sound of it, I have been in similar situations, I suspect that the electrician you hired went out with high hopes that the situation could be handled with a few, two or three at most, boxes. A fair compromise of aesthetics of the ceiling and the desire for a quick and efficient conclusion.
In such cases it is easy, with a limited assessment, to think your going to knock it out with a few cut-in boxes only to find out the extent of the damage is greater than initially estimated. Ending up using a procedure better suited to a few damaged home runs to a project better handled in another manner. hard to tell, from afar the progression of the job and who knew what when.
Junction boxes must be accessible. But they don't have to be accessible from inside the garage. Those boxes could have been installed on the bottom web of the trusses pointing up into the attic. A bit more trouble but the insurance companies seldom, I have never seen a case as long as it was done with some efficiency, balk at the small added costs.
Another point is that some savings can often be had by pulling all the runs coming from similar directions into a really large junction box. I use the box and cover from a 100A or 150A panel I have replaced, most electricians have a few dozen of these hanging around the shop so they are effectively free. Once mounted with a few screws the NM cables and home runs are tailed in through connectors and any open KOs plugged in the normal manner. If present the ground bar can be used to make up these connections. A big help if there is a conduit run down to the panel as it saves all those grounds.
If the home runs are still in cables are made up H-H, N-N, G-G. The tails are kept long and looped smoothly into the box. The cover is screwed down and the door screwed shut. Makes for an interesting, and neat as the box is up in the attic and accessible from the attic, installation. Done in a workmanlike manner I have never had any problems from even the pickiest inspectors even though there are several finer points they could gripe about like the 'intended' use of the box.
Unfortunately this doesn't help you much. Had the electrician gone with a truly temporary installation, floating boxes and draped cables clearly in violation of the normal code but allowable, for 30 days, under the 'temporary, emergency and testing' rules, the final installation would be covered.
Instead the electrician made a judgment call and put boxes up through your garage ceiling. This, as far as the insurance company and inspectors are concerned, is a final and permanent installation. I have made similar calls but usually with some consultation with the HO if at all possible. Sometimes we have to 'wing' it.
A possible solution would be to invert the boxes so they are accessible from within the attic. It might be doable with no, or little, rewiring needed. Maybe not. If the electrician ran the cables with 'pull loops', an extra 8" or so of slack of looped cable outside the box that is not required and more trouble, your in luck as it will go more quickly.
Either way your going to have a lot of holes in you garage ceiling. A good drywall man can patch these so they are not visible once the ceiling is painted.
Sounds to me like the change will have to be paid for by either you or both you and the electrician, under the logic he should have consulted more to find your preference. All he can say is 'no'. I suspect it will depend on how difficult, costly and time consuming, the job might be. Things like how the cables were run into the boxes and how easy access is to and in the attic have a big influence.
Expecting to pay for it yourself and going for sympathy concessions may be your best course. Depends on how sympathetically express your displeasure at the present situation and how tight the contractors budget, and reputation for friendly and cooperative service, is.
If the job has been signed off on, especially if it was signed by you, the insurace company is unlikely to shift in you favor. Unless you can make enough of a stink or have leverage. Good luck.
Again, excellent comments and advice.
I truley do appreciate your wishes and time spent!
Why are you dealing with your homeowners policy? Have your attorney speak with the power company. Bet your fixed right by the end of the week.
Initially, I did meet with three individual attorneys. Not one would go after the town that held the parade with the balloons.<!----><!---->
One was willing to go after the Electric Co. but I would have to pay to hire a credible “Point of Fire Expert” and “Electrical Engineer” The cost of these two consultants plus the legal fees would most likely be greater then the repair. And the electric company would most likely blame it on an act of God. “God controls the wind that blew the balloon etc…. <!---->
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Does anyone have experience in suing an electric Company? I’d be interested in hearing about it.<!---->
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Maybe I can go after the balloon manufacture….<!---->
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I may seek legal advice against the insurance co. As a homeowner with a first time claim, I received absolutely no direction or advice from my Insurance Co. just “send us the bills and we’ll take care of it”. And now this.<!---->
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I truly believe my electrician did the right thing by the temp fix. Being 3 months away from the house was detrimental to my child and home based business.<!---->
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I wish I knew of this site months ago…..<!---->
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Thanks for the tip Peter (yes you told me so)!
All you folks rock!<!---->
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JC-<!---->
Public service Commission
State's Attorney GeneralI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
You might want to contact a Public Adjuster.They work as your agent to negotiate with the insurance company and they are familar with the ways of the insuracne company.I don't know if there is enough money it for this, but it would not hurt to find out.They typically work on a percent of what is collected.
But did you approach the power company directly? Most pay for overvoltage as a matter of policy, not how it happened, just the fact it did (or could). My experience is dated, but have someone research the policy first and then approach with the claim.
received absolutely no direction or advice from my Insurance Co
So you are also shopping for a better insurance company, too, right?
The second company will not help with this pre-existing situation--but you may not get much sympathy from the present insurer. Having seen what a bunch of Texans have gone through with State Farm is what prompts me to prod you on this.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
You are correct about former condition and to add to your ammunition box ,all junctions made in wire cause heat,and that not only at the junction,but in the motor beyond because it is being strained by the lack of energy required to charge its capacitors, and its field,it will also put out less horse-power...causing wear on the entire appliance...
SCRIBE ONCE CUT ONCE!
"You are correct about former condition and to add to your ammunition box ,all junctions made in wire cause heat,and that not only at the junction,but in the motor beyond because it is being strained by the lack of energy required to charge its capacitors, and its field,it will also put out less horse-power...causing wear on the entire appliance..."WHAT???Bill, BEE
Coyote,<!----><!---->
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Oh Boy, I have a feeling your comment is going to generate a flood of debates…
Thanks<!---->
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JC<!---->
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It sounds as though neither of you ever ran an extension cord to an air compressor or electric paving breaker to discover,even though you are using a nice big cord,yuo find the power out-put of the appliance or equipment is greatly diminished.As for heat in wiring connections I'm more than certain of that being a fact...
I speak from over 26 years of boiler room and other trades experience,much of which I picked up from masters of those trades.[Licensed masters too,not just self proclaimed] If you think I am a newbie here that is also wrong, since I changed my screen name. I've been on this forum over a year...SCRIBE ONCE CUT ONCE!
A properly made connection will not have any significant voltage drop or heating.If it did that toaster would only work in the first recept of the several that are installed on the same small appliance circuit in the kitchen.Fortunately extension cords are not used for wiring kitchen appliances or electrical heating.
Edited 1/27/2005 4:15 pm ET by Bill Hartmann
Thanks Coyote.
I also found a Technical Article on "Voltage Drop" pointing to high resistance connections and low voltage problems associated to poor splices and loose or corroded connection.
http://www.psihq.com/iread/faqvolt.htm
quote:
"The NFPA reports [1] that from 1988-1992, there was an average annual total of 446,300 fires in homes, resulting in 3,860 Deaths and $4.4 Billion property damage. 42,300 (9%) of these fires were caused each year by Electrical Distribution Systems. The largest portion of fires caused by electrical distribution systems (48%) were caused by faulty fixed wiring, receptacles and switches.
Bill, Your right, A perfect splice under perfect enviromental conditions will have no problems. But IMHO, Every splice is a point of potential failure or danger and I now have 20 more potential problems than I had prior to my fire.
Edited 1/27/2005 4:27 pm ET by JC
Edited 1/27/2005 4:44 pm ET by JC
Probably ought to stay on the sidelines for this one, but the "stack of pennies" analogy prompted me to reply.
It's not a point or line contact, as others have pointed out, and the contact width doesn't need to be that wide.
AWG 12 wire has a diameter of .0808 inches, cross-sectional area of .00513 in^2. If a wire splice mates 1/2" on each wire, the contact area need only be .0103 wide. That's 1/8 of the wire diameter. Hard to imagine the contact area being smaller than this. The numbers for AWG 14 are similar in proportion. The contact length is also likely longer than 1/2", but you get the idea.
I think you're overestimating the danger in splices. As someone pointed out earlier, it's really a workmanship issue. A poorly installed splice (or receptacle, or breaker, or ....) can cause problems. I'm sure that's what the "faulty fixed wiring, receptacles and switches" refers to.
A properly installed splice should give you no more cause for concern than a properly installed outlet.
You might also consider that even your home runs have splices in them, if any of your receptacles or switches required a pigtail.
It might be worth a try to approach both the POCO and city, explain your plight, and ASK for assistance. Demands, accusations, threats probably won't work. But a polite request might. Couldn't hurt anything to try, unless you've already burned that bridge.
"Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."Jon
Your right. More wire, until we have superconducting wiring available, will always add resistance to a circuit. Connections, splices or terminations, should add little more than an equivalent length if conductor to the circuit. Human error being the determining factor in how close to this theoretical value the actual connection comes. In practical terms this means connections add additional resistance to the circuit.Resistance amounts to heat and a loss of power and efficiency in electrical circuits. Potentially causing motors driven appliances and tools to run hotter, less efficiently and to wear more rapidly than they should. Your right on this. It is true enough.What you have wrong is the scale. Well made, even sloppily done ones, typically have resistance measured in micro-ohms. Millionths of an ohm. A few milli-ohms, thousandths of an ohm, at most. You would have to have a whole lot of connections, all defective in some way, in series to seriously effect the overall circuit resistance significantly.While one very poor connection, very sloppily made and corroded, could have enough internal resistance under load to cause a significant voltage drop this negative effect would be short lived. This sort of resistance would cause the connection to completely fail under load in a very short time. The connection would melt, arc and clear in minutes. That or short out in the junction box and trip the breaker. Another reason for boxes around connections. Far too short a time to significantly increase the wear on appliances. The applience would stop working entirely so no more wear.Your right. Adding junction boxes to allow for replacement of the damaged home run likely added some resistance to the circuits. Assuming the work was done in something resembling a 'workmanlike manner' the tiny amount of added resistance in the circuits is not enough to change the performance or longevity of anything on those circuits in any significant or noticeable way. Your right. There is a difference. But it is mostly theoretical. In real terms so blindingly small it would be difficult to detect with normal test equipment in the field. Much less measure in terms of increased wear or lowered performance of anything running on the circuits affected.
"""until we have superconducting wiring available"""
we got it ...
but gold is expensive...
and the nitrogen immersion tanks lend themselves to problems...
proud member of the FOR/FOS club...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I think In Ideal conditions,if we were to learn a "bell connection" [basically a wire knot] and employ solder and shrink wrap,we might achieve the best connection possible under circumstances and cost and trouble aren't too high...SCRIBE ONCE CUT ONCE!
The irritating thing is that the industry is perfectly capable of coming up with a much more reliable connection technology. (In fact, I'll bet you that several good candidates are sitting in various labs across the country.) A combination of factors, including liability issues, but probably more due to the code bureaucracy, is preventing any advances here.
but probably more due to the code bureaucracy, is preventing any advances here.
What's that mean??
Hah, hah,ha........................I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Firebird,Dan means here that,too little[in our opinions] attention to craftsman's, technician's and sadly, even fully degreed engineer's opinions are fully considered in adapting building codes.[just try visiting a site for buildg codes] they are such pigs!
They don't consider techies and "ojt'ers in their [CASTE]!SCRIBE ONCE CUT ONCE!
Actually the industry is not capable of "coming up with a much more reliable connection technology". Many things have been tried. Largest reason major new methods are not more forthcoming is that the present methods are so very good. In terms of safety, reliability, performance, cost and the ability to be performed in the field and by semi-skilled labor quickly the present methods are quite good. Human fallibility being the controlling factor. You might be surprised the various method that are allowed. Wire nuts are just the tip of the iceberg.Actually the 'code' has little to say on the method used to make connections beyond the method be be "identified for the purpose and conditions of use" for connections and "conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy."Solder is allowed as long as they are made "mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then be soldered".Simply put with all considerations, and many more I neglect to mention, good quality wire nuts properly installed are very good. You can make up 'Western Union' splices and solder the connections if you wish. Some AHJs will let you and they, not the code, will by your major hurtle. Of course to make such a splice takes a lot of steps. Fail to complete any of these steps in good order and the splice will be below the standards of even a sloppily done wire nut connection.Once you make your splice and solder it your going to have to insulate it. And this insulation has to be, per code: "covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the conductors". Expect to spend more time laying on this insulation. Better get it right because if you miss or blow a step you were better off with the wire nut.There are very good reasons why most wiring uses wire nuts. They are effective, quick and cheap. You could spend a whole lot more time making connections by soldering, brazing or crimping, don't forget the insulation, and end up with something that isn't as good, or as safe, as a simple wire nut that took a fraction of the time to install. Especially if your paying for this work to be done.You, or anyone, come up with better methods or devices, remember all the categories, and your invention will be accepted with open arms. No need to revert to dark conspiracy theories or ominous stories of bureaucracies to explain the industry using a single method for the vast majority of connections.
I was mostly referring to the AHJs, I suppose. Many won't accept a new method until it's "proven", and of course you can't "prove" a new method unless it's accepted enough for it to develop a track record.Wire nuts are bulky, tricky to install right, and time-consuming to install, when you consider the stripping, extra cramming due to the bulkiness, difficulty working in a tight spot, etc.A connector like ScotchLoc comes close to being an improvement, but they have less than ideal contact area, and are limited in terms of the number of wires you can join. But if there were a decent financial incentive someone could easily improve on ScotchLoc.
Edited 1/27/2005 11:41 pm ET by DanH
There are some standardized tests any device has to pass. Laboratory standards. Engineering standards. This testing is expensive compared to a household budget but in business terms it isn't much.Once your product passes these standards it can be used by any electrician. 'Ideal' has a line of connectors that are small plastic boxes where the conductor is stripped and the copper inserted into a spring loaded clamp. You can buy them presently at many hardware stores. The local AHJ has no issue with these units if you wish to use them.From what I understand from the stock man at the big box they are not selling well. A few get bought by HOs doing projects but the contractors, the big hitters in terms of usage, have avoided them. Reason being that these units look suspiciously like the mechanism used on some receptacles. A mechanism that is both accepted by code and most AHJs but most reputable electricians avoid. This type of connection is seen as failure prone, unreliable. Some term these sarcastically as 'job security'. UL lists them and they are unlikely to cause a fire. That doesn't mean they work for long.Construction people are fairly conservative in their methods, if not always their politics. Electricians have sixty plus years experience with wire nuts. Wire nuts started as a marginal product but have improved to the point that even the cheapest ones are now pretty good. Very rare to find a connection failure with wire nuts that is not related to either using the wrong product or sloppy installation.Most in the electrical trade prefer to let others give these new push-in connectors a go. They don't want to use a product that saved a few minutes wiring a house only to spend months bird-dogging call backs due to failed connections. Not when their reputation and financial security of their company is on the line. Not for such a marginal and nebulous benefit.Give it a decade or so. If these products are still around they will have been used on less critical connections. Most likely they will have been improved through use, some failure and continued redesign and consultation with people in the trade. Who knows, they could take over the market. I have my doubts. IMHO it is a questionable design based on a dubious principle of operation. The shine is still on this new line. Give it a few years and we can talk.
Actually, the AHJ can refuse to approve just about anything they want to, at least in some localities. If they "don't trust" a connector, it can't be used.
Your right the AHJ can approve , or disapprove of anything. Says so right in the code.One of the reasons some inspectors would turn down a soldered job is that they know that soldered joints are detail dependent. Failure to: clean the wires to death, wind the connections properly, use the right flux and solder, use the right amount of heat, keep the connection still while it cools or to insulate the joint leaves a poor connection. This takes time and attention to detail at every single joint. Time and money pressures further lower the probabilities of it being done right every time.Wire nuts are simple and robust in comparison. Strip, align, twist up(If your a perfectionist or old timer) spin on a cap, tighten firmly and check for shiners. The wire nut spring cuts through surface oxidation. It tightly grips the wires and expands as the wires expand with heating under load and takes up the slack as they cool. The connection stays tight and sound. Whole thing is a lot less finicky, prone to human error, and time consuming.
I think the best compromise in wiring connections[till other technology comes along] would be a crimped lug and cap or another sort of swaged joint then a good old wire nut...SCRIBE ONCE CUT ONCE!
In small sizes crimped lugs sometimes loosen under heat cycling. Seen this a lot in ground connections. AHJ and a lot of electricians thought crimp sleeves to be superior so crimps were preferred on ground connections. Later experience, IMO and some others, has shown the error of these assumptions.The heat build up caused by the loosening joint, unlike a spring which can take up the slack the crimps, once expansion has overcome the band, cannot recontract, and a little corrosion quickly doom the connection.larger crimps, something like #8 or #6 and above, seem to be largely immune to such effects. These are also gauges that wire nuts become impractical. In these cases crimps, particularly high pressure sleeves, and lugs are far superior. The later having the advantage of being removable and, many times, preinsulated.
Yeah, heat cycling is one problem, simply getting a good quality crimp is another. A better approach would be a crimped connector that incorporated springs internally, so the crimping really just tightened the springs.One thing I was thinking about last night is if the proper insulation-piercing connectors were available (probably coupled with a change is wire design) it would be possible to make, eg, a duplex outlet connection without having to cut the wire. This means fewer connections and hence improved reliability. Not to mention some significant time savings.Re the wire nut, it could probably be improved by making it in two parts, one part which you would slide over the wires, and a second part which you would then screw over the first. If the first part consisted of a ring with holes in it and a metal cone in the middle, the second part could tighten the wires against the cone. Special wrenches would hold each piece, so that the wires don't get twisted during the operation. (Yeah, some twisting is good, but it often gets out of hand.) Would be especially good for 5+ wires, where wire nuts become iffy.
You might have an idea there with: "crimped connector that incorporated springs internally, so the crimping really just tightened the springs"."insulation-piercing connectors" IMHO this idea has less merit. There is an entire line of insulation or piercing or 'displacing' connectors. The displacement version typically uses a slot calibrated to a particular wire size. The insulated wire is forced by some mechanism down into the slot. The force, friction and pressure displacing the softer insulation while the harder conductor is caught in the cramped space.IMO the most successful of these is used in TELCOM applications. The connector being a compact plastic unit filled with a silicon grease. Pliers are used to force a plunger down to make the magic work. These work great. The plastic exterior and grease make the connections very weather resistant and reliable in the application intended. Low voltage, low amperage applications with a very limited range of wire sizes.Attempts to use this displacement technology in line voltage applications where amperage is much higher has been, IMHO, much less successful. Mobile homes have used what we call 'modular devices' that use this method and eliminate the need, per code, the need for a separate box as the devices have a plastic enclosure. Quick and cheap to install these units are handy for mobile home manufacturers. Most electricians I think of as good consider these to be beneath contempt. The only good thing about a home done in these is that they are essentially 'job security'. When, not if, they go bad an electrician will have a job.There are piercing connectors that have jaws that look like sharks teeth. These are used on large conductors. Typically #1 and above. You situated the connector on the insulated conductor and hold in place while you tighten a couple of bolts. Finish by torqueing to a set value or until the calibrated head breaks off. Advantage also being they automatically insulate the connection. Quick and dirty they claim to be reliable in industrial and POCO applications. It will take ten years or more to tell.Not sure the slightly greater effort of stripping the conductor and inserting it into a preinsulated lug is that much greater. And these lugs have a long record. a couple of decades, of good reliability.In my view insulation and piercing connectors are still too young a technology to be used in the more demanding power circuits, as opposed to less demanding communications lines.
The problem with the typical insulation displacing connector is that the contact must be sharp (and thin) to cut through the insulation. This reduces the contact area fairly severely.
But some specialized electronic connectors are applied after first using a special tool that chews away the insulation. Something similar could be done on a specialized power cable to clear the contact areas. Then the contact could be optimized for making the connection, vs having to be designed for insulation piercing.
Granted, connectors of this style would remove a lot of the "art" from wiring, but could potentially improve productivity and reliability.