I bought some 5/8″ safety lines from my favorite pawn shop yesterday. Safewaze brand 50′ long– only problem is there are double action snap hooks on both ends.
I want to cut off the hooks off one end of both ropes and back splice the ends so my rope grabs can’t go beyond the splice.
Anyone got a good set of directions to accomplish this ? Thanks for the help.
Walter
Replies
The hollow needle and a marlin spike works for a clinch splice, open the weave and set the tag end into the braid.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
By the time he buy's all that stuff . He could buy a new rope. L O L ,,,, ; )
I can make a spliced eye in 5 mins or less with a Swiss Army Knife.
But hang my aszz off it? Maybe Knot..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Duane,
The spliced end is the free end- just don't want the metal snap hook banging around and busting up slates
Oh Ok..hell a propane torch and melt it!
Spit on your fingers before ya wadd it up into a ball, else the stuff sticks.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I 've grew up around the water ,my whole life. And have seen some fancy knot work, splicing has always been one of those thing done on the dock or at home with a couple buds and a case of beer. i cant tell you how many times i've walked into a clammer/lobster guys garage with a stack of line in the corner, waiting for winter the beer and a cracking wood stove. That when the splicing gets done. L O L ... and there weary of that damn rope when there on the water. All that aside they say , aaahhh grab the newer one , that one is spliced. point being when there money or a life involoved ...buy a new rope.
Stone soup...........Naive but refreshing !
i miss that reference......... i hope it was fun
Check out this website for great step-by-step instructions:
http://www.animatedknots.com/indexscouting.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
Don,
Thanks very much-- thats exactly what I needed.
Walter
Don,
On that site under rope care was the directions for the back splice I wanted.
Thanks again, Walter
Take a look at apparant-wind.com/knots. Even if it doesn't have splice instructions, it's a very cool site.
Kate,
Thank you -- I'll check it out tonite. Walter
I'm not positive I would use a splice to accomplish this function.
Although not as nice looking, a knot would accomplish your goal and provide a significantly bigger "lump" for stopping your rope grab.
Figure 8 would do it.
Or prettier - a double overhand knot (not sure that is the right name). Form an overhand knot and tuck the tag end through the loop one additional time - tighten.
Just a thought.
Jim
Jim,
You're right in one respect -- less chance for the grab to come past a knot, but I've done that with other ropes in the past and the knot tends to fetch up and make moving around on the roof cumbersome at times.
How about splicing a thimble into the end - big lump, but at least it is tapered with the skinny end of the resulting teardrop shape toward the running part of the line - might hang up less.
I'll quit thinkin' now.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Thats a good idea to try too.
Once I become more familiar with the techniques of the splicing I'll try that too.
Thanks
BTW, different types of rope can require very different splices.
Two friendly words of caution:
Use the double overhand instead of the figure eight as a stopper. The figure eight has been know to come undone. Unfortunately, rappelling off the end of a rope is a common cause of climbing accidents. The double overhand is used my most rock/tree climbers.
I wouldn't trust my life to used rope, unless you were SURE of it's history. You have no way of knowing if it's been exposed to chemicals or has already stopped a fall. Quality new rope is reasonably priced.
Good Luck,
jerry
Thanks for the heads up- these appear to have never been used. Probably bought by a roofer to have on hand then just did like most and never believed he had need to use them.
"...then just did like most and never believed he had need to use them."
Prolly an estate sale then. :-(
Edit: Ok, more seriously then, you might want to make sure that your backsplice will not pull through the throat of your arrestor's body when subject to fall forces. If your rope is slightly undersized to the device, it will likely pull through.
Edited 3/2/2008 2:37 am ET by Pierre1
Hey, dinosaur, care to help out the OP with a merchant marine pov here?
Hey, dinosaur, care to help out the OP with a merchant marine pov here?
Uh, yeah, I could do that--as well as from an HARR ('high-angle rope rescue') p.o.v.--but nobody's gonna like me much afterwards, I'm afraid.
WTF, maybe it'll save somebody's life. Sigh. Please don't shoot the piano player, folks....
The amount of faulty, dead-wrong, uninformed, false, and downright dangerous advice in this thread so far is scary. And what's even scarier is that a lot of it is coming from people on this board who I know either personally or by reputation to be highly intelligent and experienced...in their own fields of expertise.
None of whom I wish to piss off, either, I hasten to add...so my comments are gonna be as general as possible, and I am not going back to check on who said what. So don't, please don't, take it personally. I am not trying to dope slap anybody here; my only purpose is to debunk the #### before somebody like Slateman gets killed by his safety gear.
As a short preface to the rest of this, I should point out that my recent WTD article in FHB on rope was deliberately edited down (with my consent) so that we did not discuss the hundreds of different types of rope that can/are/could be used for safety gear because the subject is so huge that even a full-length article (as opposed to a 'What's the Diff' quickie) couldn't touch it without raising more questions than it answered. If you really want to understand rope and rigging, you need to do five years as an apprentice with a master rigger, read several whole books on the subject...and learn to do the math that goes along with it all.
Failing that, do what the rest of the world does: Buy gear that is certified by a recognised standards organisation (CSA, OSHA, NRRA, NFPA, etc.), use it strictly in accordance with the supplier's instructions, and retire and replace it religiously as indicated.
Now, not necessarily in order and with no reference whatsoever to who suggested what:
1. A backsplice should never be used as a safety stopper; if the line is the proper size for the device through which it is reeved (which it obviously must be for safety gear), the backsplice will not bulk enough to retain the device when shock loaded by a fall.
2. A 'Molly Hogan' splice is a temporary, emergency splicing technique for wire rope, and when done properly it is quite strong and dependable...within its design limits. I once towed a 900-foot tank barge in an Atlantic hurricane for two days on a Molly Hogan splice that I put into the frayed end of a 7" wire hawser after a big following sea surged the tug and broke it. But you can bet we were going dead slow ahead, just stemming the weather while waiting for another boat to come and take the barge off us. You should not put a Molly Hogan into fibre rope unless the eye and shank will be parcelled and served. (And if you're going to go to that much trouble, why not put in a proper sailor's or rigger's or sailmaker's eyesplice, according to the need.)
3. There is no such thing as NDT for rope; by that I mean to say you can't tell how stong a piece of rope is by looking at it, x-raying it, smelling it, tasting it, or anything else sort of breaking it. The only way to know the breaking strength of a piece of rope is to subject it to destructive testing, after which, obviously, it's no good to you anymore. That said, new rope is manufactured to specific design tolerances, and a minimum breaking strength (and hence SWL or Safe Working Load) is known...for that new rope at the time of its manufacture. But rope degrades over time from exposure to a whole plethora of things. What those things are depends on what fibres are used in making it, but the common multiplier is time. Therefore, the date of manufacture of any safety rope is essential knowledge, just as is the life history of the rope. That said, it should be obvious that no piece of gear purchased from a hock shop should ever be trusted, period.
4. The 'butane backsplice' someone mentioned will prevent synthetic rope from unravelling; however spitting on one's fingers before attempting to form molten poly/nylon is just asking for a nasty burn. Don't ask me how I found this out. This treatment will not provide any bitter-end bulk to prevent the line from unreeving through a device.
5. The use of fall-protection gear requires the understanding of something called the 'Fall Factor.' This is mathematically expressed as
length of fall DIVIDED BY length of rope fallen on
The maximum theoretical fall factor is 2. This means falling exactly twice the length of the total amount of rope the person has run out from the anchor or belay point. This will happen anytime your anchor or belay point is below you (unless it is so close to the ground that you hit that before the rope catches you). A fall factor of 2 puts the highest possible shock load on your gear...and on your body, too. Which is why your point of tie-in should always be above you....
In my experience most people who are obliged to wear safety gear do not understand this, but merely wear the #$%?&*?$% harness because the boss tells them to. Or worse yet, they wear it because they're scared of falling...but use it wrong and think it is protecting them just 'cause it's there. For instance, there is a good reason to use the dorsal attachment point instead of the waist tie-in loop on a harness...under some circumstances. But you have to know what they are.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 3/2/2008 6:56 pm ET by Dinosaur
6. Briefly, there are two ways to rig fall protection: belay, or static anchor. As to belay placement, for construction work fall protection there are almost no circumstances I can imagine where anything other than a top-rope system would be used. (This means that even if the belayer is on the ground, the rope protecting the worker in the air is lead through a block or fairlead anchored to a hard point above him.)
And I forget a bunch of other stuff. Like I said, I'm not looking to clobber anyone here, just shoot down some of the 'urban legends' about rope which can get people killed.
Anyway, the short answer for Slateman is two-fold:
1. Don't use the stuff you bought in a pawn shop.
2. If you buy a new, certified safety harness which presents you with the same problem of snap-hooks catching on and damaging the first course of slate, just overwrap the hooks with hockey tape.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino,
These are put onto the rope then hooked to the harness with a shock absorbing lanyard.
View Image
That's a self-tending self-belay device. The 'lifeline' it is supposed to run on needs to be fixed at both ends for the self-tending feature to work properly. It's only intended for vertical safety lines.
Self-tending devices follow the worker up the roof (or whatever) as he climbs, without requiring him to manipulate it with a hand. That is their major selling point. But unless the bottom end of the lifeline is fixed, the device will just pull the slack rope up from the ground, instead of sliding up the rope itself and maintaining the anchor point right next to the worker. If that happens, the actual anchor point is far, far below the worker...and if he falls, he'll free-fall until all that slack is taken up. Guaranteed 2.0 fall factor. Bam.
None of these devices are rocket science. They are nothing more than one-way cams that slide in one direction and jam in the other. The major disadvantage of them all is that they damage the rope whenever they stop a fall...and thus the rule that any fall on a lifeline requires the lifeline to be retired from life-support service. Immediately.
It is possible to self-belay with nothing more than a 2-foot loop of 6mm Perlon, tied into a prusik around the lifeline. But such a rig is not self-tending, and requires skill and knowledge to use safely.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dino,
When using them for roofing work you certainly don't want the lower end fixed or you have no mobility. When ascending you simply need to "help" the grab since as you point out it doesn't want to flow going up.
When using them for roofing work you certainly don't want the lower end fixed or you have no mobility. When ascending you simply need to "help" the grab since as you point out it doesn't want to flow going up.
This illustrates the essential problem of commercial fall-protection gear, which is that it is designed to be marketed for as many applications as possible, but not to be particularly good for any one of them. Yes, as a roofer I agree with you 100% that if your life-line is fixed top and bottom--as it is required to be for any self-tending belay device--you'll be cussing and spitting tacks trying to get your work done.
But as a rigger and rescue professional, I disagree about leaving the bottom end loose because long, hard experience proves that 99% of all roofing workers simply will not take the time to haul that 'rope grab' up the life-line with them every time they move up the roof. It's just too much goddamned trouble, and when you've got both hands full of tools and shingles, the last flippin' thing you want to have to do is put 'em down so you can use both hands on the blinkin' safety gear, just to walk up a couple of steps to get something.
So what happens? The device hauls slack up the roof, and the actual tie-in point on that life-line isn't where it looks like it is...and the whole system becomes almost more of a danger to the worker than if he had nothing on him at all...because (a) he can now trip on that slack, and (b) he thinks he's protected but in fact is not.
This last element is not an inconsequential one. Ongoing statistical research into accidents and their causes is beginning to show that there is a defininte increase in carelessness amongst people who wear safety gear of almost any description, and an almost universal lack of understanding of the actual protective value of the gear itself. A survey of helmet-wearing skiers done at my mountain last year revealed, for instance, that over 84% of people wearing a ski helmet believed it would protect them from serious injury or death in the event of a high-speed collision with a tree or other 'immovable' object. And that is in spite of language specifically to the contrary which is printed inside the helmets themselves and in the little WARNING brochures that come with all such gear.
Obviously, it would be possible to design--and rig--a fall-protection system for roofing which would be not only user-friendly but safe. But it would require at least four or five times as much gear as the basic self-tending belay rigs most people use right now, would have to be designed and rigged for each individual roof, and would of course require a master rigger to install it and calculate the loads for each installation. It is simply not practical.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Dinosaur,
Thanks for the attempt to correct previous misinformation, but I'm afraid you added some of your own. I've been a rope rescue instructor for mountain rescue, cave rescue, fast-water rescue, ice rescue, fire rescue, and industrial rescue.
Dynamic belays are never allowed for worksite fall protection. Lifelines must be static lines rated at a minimum tensile strength of 5000 lbs. and only automatic rope grabs or self-retracting lanyards meet OSHA standards. Other standards (such as IRATA) apply to professional rope access technicians, and different ones (such as NFPA and MRA) apply to rope rescue teams.
Fall prevention or work positioning systems don't require shock-absorbing lanyards. Fall arrest systems are required to keep deceleration forces to no more than 1800 lbs (8 kn) with a full-body harness, limit deceleration distance to 3.5 feet and overall extension to 6'.
Vertical lifelines are NOT secured on the bottom. Fall arrest rope grabs (like the MIO unit pictured) are designed to move easily and slip before grabbing to reduce impact loads. (By the way, "rope grab" is the industry standard term for this device). And lifeline does NOT need to be trashed after a fall - it simply cannot be placed back in service unless inspected by a qualified individual.
OSHA wants fall-arrest lanyards to be attached to the dorsal (mid-back) d-ring unless the free-fall distance is limited to 20" in which case it can be attached to the ventral (chest) d-ring. Work positioning lanyards can be attached directly to the waist belt.
OSHA also requires that any employer requiring fall arrest systems have a rescue plan in place or train employees in self-rescue, since harness hang syndrome can kill in as little as 5-10 minutes of unconscious suspension in a harness (which is why I use a stopper knot to prevent sliding past the edge).
Edited 3/3/2008 4:32 pm ET by Riversong
I do not pretend to be conversant with OSHA regulations about fall-protection, partly because I am governed by Québec's CSST (which has different rules) and partly because I personally (although not professionally; I can't) ignore any regulation I don't agree with, knowing that a lot of them are completely idiotic, being the result of committee-room dicta promulgated by liability lawyers, not riggers.
But here comes the disclaimer: I do not and cannot recommend anyone else follow my personal example, because when I break a rule, I break it knowing exactly what I am doing (or I don't break it!)...which is something most people can't do. I know that sounds horribly superior and snotty (apologies offered to those who want them) but remember what I said when Pierre1 suckered me into joining this thread: I'm afraid nobody's gonna like me much by the end of it....
I am not unhappy, though, to hear you state that no dynamic belay is allowed for fall protection by OSHA; I agree with that position, and would never use anything other than a static line for such an application. However, many (read 'too many') of the people working in the rope-rescue biz are rock climbers...and they bring their own prejudices and urban rope legends with them to the rescue world. And if you know many rock climbers, you know that anyone who isn't one is regarded as incompetent to tie his own shoes without Velcro.
I lost all respect for rock climbers as an 'expert' source of rope-use knowledge when I was informed that the FQM had decreed that sheet bends, Carrick bends, or interlaced bowlines were 'illegal' and that square knots (square knots, fer cryssakes!!!) were henceforce to be used as a bend, that is, to join two lines.
Go take a look at what Ashley has to say about square knots....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
the FQM had decreed that sheet bends, Carrick bends, or interlaced bowlines were 'illegal'
What's the FQM?
I happen to be fond of interlaced bowlines for two-line litter raising and lowering systems.
Sounds like the US Fire Service banning bowlines for life-safety applications, probably because firefighters can't remember how to tie them correctly.
FQM: Federation Quebecoise de la montagne = Quebec Mountain Federation.
FQM is a provincially-sanctioned public membership rock-climbing org'n that trains and certifies instructors, teaches and promotes climbing, and advocates/manages environmental and site access issues. Think of a French-speaking ACC (American Climbing Club), only smaller.
Bowlines: some organisations believe the bowline is an unstable knot, which it isn't if tied/used properly. Some believe that the Flemish (dutch) version is less stable than the Royal Navy (UK) version wrt where the tail ends up, but they are both equally good and versatile.
The bowline's major flaw is that people who 'learn' it have trouble remembering how to tie it, or they mistakenly subject the loop to a pull it is not intended for. Of course, they do not practice so as to gain real proficiency, i.e. by tying one in the dark or behind their back, and remembering what applications it is best suited for.
Once most people pass a knot-tying proficiency 'test', they are usually content to go home and let the matter rest, if you know what I mean. ;) They do not rig up hypothetical rescue situations in their backyards. And so, when the proverbial hits the fan, they can't tie a bowline to save their or other's lives. That's where the ubiquitous stack of half-hitches comes to the rescue. Or heaven forbid, the square knot. LOL.
My approach is that there is always rope - or line - in my work vehicle, some of it static, the rest dynamic. Webbing and perlon slings too. I add 'biners and pulleys when the job calls for it. Being an admitted lifelong knot nerd and participant in many vertical/water sports, including mock and real rescues, I still practice my skills. Unused rope skills are like a hammer left in the rain, they get rusty.
Simple hauling or rigging systems to lift, carry, lower or steady a heavy load sure are nice to have on a job site.
Edited 3/4/2008 2:57 am ET by Pierre1
Bowlines: some organisations believe the bowline is an unstable knot
The bowline IS an unstable and insecure knot. Unstable because it can invert (collapse) if dragged upward across an edge, particularly unloaded. And insecure because, in stiff rope, it can loosen itself if not properly backed up.
But, as you say, used properly it's one of the most versatile of all knots.
Square knots do, however, have a place in rescue. In fact, the manufacturer of the Sked flexible litter requires a double square knot to finish off the two ends of the haul line after threading through all the grommets.
And I've seen square knots used on swiss seats made from 1" webbing.
Sounds like the US Fire Service banning bowlines for life-safety applications, probably because firefighters can't remember how to tie them correctly.
That is exactly the 'reason' the FQM gave for making that brain-dead decree. They were afraid somebody would tie the right knot wrong, so--instead of doing member education or maintaining standards--they decreed that everybody should tie the wrong knot right. That demonstrates a total lack of understanding of the subject in which they profess to be the only true experts, and, as far as I'm concerned, places the FQM--and any other 'expert' organisation with the same attitude--on my permanent 'ignore' list.
My attitude is very old fashioned, completely politically-incorrect, and nastily hard-aŝŝed: If someone doesn't know how to use a rope correctly, he should keep his friggin' hands off it until he learns how, goddammit! I am colossally uninterested in how someone's feelings might be hurt by that...because I am also uncommonly aware of how easily their (or their partner's) physical existance might be hurt or destroyed by taking the opposite point of view.
Coming back to my reference to Ashley on square knots a previous post: For those who do not know the work of Clifford W. Ashley (The Ashley Book of Knots, universally accepted as the bible of knot work by anyone with enough knowledge to be entitled to an opinion on the subject), I will paraphrase what he said about square knots (I'm too lazy tonight to go get the book and quote it exactly):
There have probably been more deaths and injuries caused by the misuse of a square knot (as a bend) than by the failure of all other knots combined.
A square knot--also called a 'reef knot' when used to reef sails--is a binding knot; it is not a bend. As a binding knot--one used to bind up a bundle of something--it is excellent. As a bend--a knot used to join two ropes end-to-end--it merits a skull and cross-bones.
What not enough people understand is that using a knot (or splice) for a purpose which it was not designed to fulfill is just like misusing any other tool. If you will imagine how you'd feel about someone using one of your good chisels to dig a 20d nail out of a 2x6, you will get close to understanding how I feel about people who think it doesn't matter what knot they use.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"square knots (square knots, fer cryssakes!!!) were henceforce to be used as a bend, that is, to join two lines."
Well, I'm a climber who can tie his own shoes (at least on the days when my back will allow me to bend over that far, LOL) and, as far as I know, the approved method for joining two lines isn't a square knot, but a single overhand knot tied in the paralel/ends together lines with LOTS of tail. The reason for this is that, when rapelling (the most common situation where two ropes are joined), knots such as interlaced bowlines or figure eights are simply too bulky and tend to get hung up on the rock when pulling the rope down from the tie-in, maybe leaving the climber stranded with no safe way up or down. The single overhand is far less likely to jam in cracks, and it does not come undone. In fact, it's generally a pain to untie after use. I know of no instance where a square knot is approved for use on a safety line.
Of course, all this has absolutely no bearing on construction worker safety. If it was me, I wouldn't splice ropes in cases where a device must pass over the joint. I'd get a longer line. In cases where the movement of the device over the junction was not an issue, I'd probably use a grapevine knot.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,
My original question was simply how to backsplice the tail end of a 50' safety line-- so that it wouldn't catch up on the lowest roof edge.
I certainly didn't envision splicing two lengths together. I know this topic has wandered quite far afield from the original intent.
Walter
Yeah, I know. I figgered that had been pretty much answered. I was just responding to the dis to us climber-types. ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Edited 3/4/2008 2:06 pm ET by MikeHennessy
Sorry then --- carry on !!
as far as I know, the approved method for joining two lines isn't a square knot, but a single overhand knot tied in the paralel/ends together lines with LOTS of tail.
Approved? No agency I'm aware of has approved the flat overhand bend (a.k.a. European Death Knot), but it's widely used among European climbers, canyoneers, and increasingly among US climbers.
View Image
But the standard for rappel lines in the US has been the double fisherman's (double overhand bend). Unlike the EDK, it simply cannot come undone, is compact enough that it rarely gets stuck, and can be undone without too much effort.
View Image
Riversong, how old is that clean piece of Georgia history, looks like Bluewater II?
The figure eight is such an adaptable knot, and thankfully everyone but those who should really stay away from steep places seem able to tie it well.
I rock climbing, when rapelling on two rope strands (double rappel) my preference is to join both ends with a figure eight, with say 12" of tail: the Double Eight. Much less concentrated fiber strain than the Overhand knot diagrammed above. The Double Eight is easy to untie after subjected to loads, much easier than the Double Fisherman which I gradually weaned myself away from.
The Double Eight's rappel specific advantage is that when retrieved by pulling on one strand, the rope will slide and pull through the top anchor with much less chance of fouling itself on the anchor or a rock ledge or shelf further down. Why? Well, the natural tendency of the Double Eight is to turn and ride flat over any edge. Try it at home over an edge like your kitchen table, or over an open door's top edge - nice way to bring in a direct reference to homebuilding, no?
In vertical caving, I've rigged mid-air changeovers using another variation of the figure eight. This is not linking two figure eights through their loops, which would concentrate destructive load strains over barely a square inch. For those new to the vertical world, changeovers are where you have say a 200' pit but only two 150' static ropes which must be joined together in order to reach the bottom. The join is with a flat-type figure eight, where a single eight is tied into the end of one rope, and the end of the next rope is then threaded along the first knot. Leave enough extra tail on the 'bottom side of the knot with which to tie a small 6" secondary loop, itself a simple figure 8.
On rappel changeover, this secondary loop will receive a clipped cowstail safety, while the rappel device is unfastened from the upper and switched to the lower rope. Climbing out, the secondary eight serves the same purpose when ascenders/prussiks are repositioned past the main Figure Eight.
We've rigged two parallel 7/16" lines that way, each with a changeover station, and had a caver rappel down each line. This was a 300'+ outside cliff rappel, rigged free all the way down to a 700' deep lake, and each required two ropes joined as described above. The rope ends would disappear into the water, and you could get your feet wet if you chose, or if you switched to the other guy'd rope when he was just above the water, dunk his azz into the lake - rope stretch is a wonderful thing sometimes. We would practice switching ropes, going through the changeover on rappel or on ascent, simul-climbing two on a rope, 'picking off' for rescue practice, etc. On BWII and PMI.
You a paddler or raft guide?
Edited 3/4/2008 7:02 pm ET by Pierre1
Edited 3/4/2008 7:03 pm ET by Pierre1
Pierre,
I know SFA about climbing, but I know a thing or two about knots,
I keep a short line seized onto most wires and hoses and often use a square knot to tie these into coils. Next to a bow (which is a slipped square knot), it's the easiest thing to collapse and remove if it hasn't been strained much.
Anybody who uses such a knot as a bend needs his head examined.
And, bowlines collapsed? If tied correctly and worked down tight, I think it is impossible. If tied incorrectly, it ain't a bowline.
Ron
And, bowlines collapsed? If tied correctly and worked down tight, I think it is impossible.
Not impossible at all.
If the "rabbit hole" gets snagged and pulled up over the bight around the "tree", then the bight slips through and the bowline loop vanishes (along with whatever is hanging on it).
If the "rabbit hole" gets snagged and pulled up over the bight around the "tree",
...and if Bill Gates got hurt skiing where I work and I got to save his life, I might get a big enough tip to buy a new truck. LOL...
What you're describing does not happen in that direction without fingers to help it happen; but it does go the other way, to tie the knot rather than to untie it. The professional's way of tying a bowline is to capsize a slipknot through which the bitter end has been reeved--nobody who ties these things on a regular basis uses the rabbit-and-tree method. I don't even teach children that method anymore.
Wish I had some high-end computer-graphics software so I could produce a mini-video to demonstrate this for you, but I don't. Sorry....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
What you're describing does not happen in that direction without fingers to help it happen; but it does go the other way, to tie the knot rather than to untie it.
What can be done can be undone.
It can happen and it has happened with stiff rope that doesn't bind down tightly.
The professional's way of tying a bowline is to capsize a slipknot through which the bitter end has been reeved--nobody who ties these things on a regular basis uses the rabbit-and-tree method. I don't even teach children that method anymore.
Well that's interesting because I'm a professional rope rescue instructor and I don't either tie the bowline or teach it the slip knot method.
You should try to teach children the "rabbit and tree" method, since almost all Boy Scouts for generations learned the bowline that way, and it's a great mnemonic for adults as well.
If you tell novices to "tie a bight through an overhand loop around the standing part" (or any similar "professional" terminology) you're going to lose them.
Edited 3/4/2008 9:23 pm ET by Riversong
ROn, the knots you chose certainly are appropriate for the job at hand....and getting a bowline dressed, i.e. cinched tight, is the way to go.
when rapelling on two rope strands (double rappel) my preference is to join both ends with a figure eight, with say 12" of tail: the Double Eight.
I assume you're refering to a figure-8 bend, not a flat figure-8 (both tails in the same direction).
If it's the bend, cavers love them but I've never seen a climber rappel on one. Too bulky and too likely to jamb on retrieval.
If it's the flat version (the figure-8 version of the EDK above), then it's been proven to be extremely likely to roll and come undone.
I was clumsily attempting to describe two variants of the figure eight, each with its special purpose which I will attempt to make clearer.<!----><!----><!---->
1. For climbing rappels longer than half a rope length when two ropes are available, and the ropes will be pull-retrieved from the bottom, tie both ropes together with the figure 8 bend which is safe (while the EDK overhand, as you stated, isn’t).
This figure 8, is less likely to bind in a cleft upon retrieval since once subjected to load it presents a flat aspect to one side – much better in this respect than the dbl. Fishermans. Certainly, paying attention to which side of the anchor the rope is on (the ‘low’ side mentioned by Dinosaur) is important as that reduces the likelihood of a snag.<!----><!---->
2. For caving rappels longer than any one of the dozen or more ropes an expedition carries, several ropes can be tied together end-to-end in order to reach the bottom. The intent is not to do a pull retrieval from the bottom, but for the crew later to ascend the same rigging on the way back out. Let's call this one a threaded flat 8.
Cavers do not use the fisherman’s or double fisherman’s for this purpose, even though both are very strong knots that spread fibre strain over a large area….because both fishermen knots take way too much time and effort to untie once loaded up in a wet & muddy environment.
The threaded flat 8 binds these multiple rope ends together. Tie a simple flat figure 8 on the lower end of the first rope, then thread the upper end of the next rope into this flat 8 – kinda like how a water knot has an overhand knot on one end and the other end is threaded alongside the original overhand. In this case, a tail exits the knot at the top, another tail exits the knot at the bottom. A further refinement is to tie a simple figure 8 on a bight loop from the long tail coming out the threaded flat 8's bottom, which provides a convenient place to clip one’s cow’s tail safety while the user unweighs and resets his descender or ascenders.
<!----><!---->
Phew. <!----><!---->
Edited 3/5/2008 12:19 am ET by Pierre1
Thanks for the clearer description. I'm perfectly familiar with the uses of the figure-8 for re-belays, and I agree that the figure-8 and bowline (for anchoring) are ideal knots for the cave environment.
But a "flat" figure-8 bend is simply a poorly dressed knot. Properly dressed and loaded, a figure-8 bend is symmetrical back to front and has no "flat" side.
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yes, yes, yes...
Reading your reply made me wonder if things had passed me by, so I checked a bit.
"The overhand knot, used for joining two ropes for rappel, is reportedly in widespread use in Europe and has been for many years. It's certainly a commonly used knot in the states and has gained in popularity within the past decade. Rock and Ice magazine, George Bracksieck (7/11/97) states "The one-sided overhand knot (tails parallel and together) remains the best knot for rappelling, even with different diameter ropes. Be sure to leave plenty of tail and to set it snugly." Petzl catalogs show the overhand knot as suitable for joining two ropes for abseil. The American Mountain Guides Association (AMGA) Guides Manual , section 2.1 on Knots, diagrams the overhand as one used for tying two ends as a rappel knot. They also reference it as the 'Euro-death knot'." (Many references wondered about the source of that moniker -- none explained it. I suspect that it was given by US climbers who were used to other knots and were leary of switching to such a simple knot, but . . . ?)
Further reading shows that this knot has been continuing to gain popularity, although some recommend using a second overhand knot snug up agains the first if there is little danger that the rope will hang up in a crack when pulled. See, e.g., http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7VU4-ei30s
So, it seems that AMGA sanctions it's use, and other authorities approve it as well, though a second OH knot is strongly recommended to prevent the knot from rolling. However, the bottom line is there is no perfect knot for rappelling. Like pretty much everything else, there is no single right answer that will cover every situation. This particular knot use continues to generate a lot of "discussion". ;-)
That said, for me, rapping is always the scarriest part of any climb and to be avoided if possible.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
They also reference it as the 'Euro-death knot'." (Many references wondered about the source of that moniker -- none explained it. I suspect that it was given by US climbers who were used to other knots and were leary of switching to such a simple knot, but . . . ?)
A short list:
5/21/2002 Flat-figure-eight. Ross Tamin fell 180 feet and died on Spaceshot, Zion NP. See accident report from rec.climbing, and 2003 Accidents in North American Mountaineering (ANAM).
9/12/1997 Flat-overhand. Karen Turk fell 30 feet on the Guide's Wall, Grand Teton NP. See a detailed report by ranger Mark Magnuson, and 1998 ANAM.
10/12/1994 Flat-figure-eight. Imtiaz Lahlji fell 60 feet and died at Seneca Rocks. Reported in 1995 ANAM.
Quoting Grand Teton N.P. ranger Mark Magnuson from the link you provided:
"Again, while one can speculate on several possibilities, I don't think we can draw any absolute conclusions from this incident. For those who use this knot, it would seem prudent to verify your own personal confidence in it's reliability and pay particular attention to tying it correctly (as you should with any knot.) Certainly food for thought!"
"Again, it should be stressed that, in my opinion, nothing conclusive can be drawn from this incident. It does serve as a good reminder that, whatever knot one chooses to use, it's worthy of double-checking every time you trust your life (or someone else's) to it."
Now that be sage advice that applies to any knot or rigging.
The flat figure-8 bend is far more dangerous than the flat overhand bend, but there have been accidents attributed to both and testing has demonstrated both knots propensity to roll under load (frighteningly easily with poorly-tied versions).
The reason that "proper" tying of these knots' requires "lots of tail" is that they can roll and "eat up" their tails, eventually rolling right off the tails.
Testing: http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html
Edited 3/5/2008 2:02 pm ET by Riversong
That's a great link, lots of info presented in an open-minded fashion. Thanks.
The data shows that the figure 8 bend in a double rappel scenario is just, if not more, prone to flipping itself over and over till it reaches the end and the user reaches his end: there goes one of my strongly held beliefs.
I found the Salt Lake Sherriff SAR's destructive testing results to be particularly interesting, page http://www.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/pull_tests_11_98.html
Ok, so now what? Which knot is best suited for a double strand pull down rappel? I certainly don't want to use the DFK (dbl. fisherman) as it is a beatch to untie. I wonder if the good old sheet bend might be useful in this application, provided both ropes are of equal diameter. If not of equal dia., then use the double-looped sheet bend variation?
Edit: Come to think of it, the sheet bend by its very nature would likely be subject to reversal on the bight side, should the rapeller inadvertently pull/load the open end of the bight against some edge.... Too bad, the sheet bend is such a simple & efficient knot.
Other suggestions by others here?
Edited 3/5/2008 5:38 pm ET by Pierre1
Which knot is best suited for a double strand pull down rappel? I certainly don't want to use the DFK (dbl. fisherman) as it is a beatch to untie.
I don't know what kind of rope you're using, but I've done thousands of rappels on both 10-11mm dynamic and 11-13mm static tied together with the double overhand bend (aka double fishermans) and have never had trouble getting them untied.
And, so far, I've never got one irretrievably caught on pull-down.
Same ropes by PMI, BW, Eldelrid, Mammut, others. Many hundreds not thousands of rappels, while climbing and caving.
Caving usually means wet and very dirty rope so the knots, repeatedly loaded on rappel and ascent, are tenacious to say the least.
What about the sheet bend idea? Naw.
Those Salt Lake sewn webbing tests were pretty interesting in that many of the factory bar-tacked slings failed before the home-sewn ones.
What about the sheet bend idea?
A double sheetbend with double overhand safeties can be used as a life-safety bend.
Without the safety knots, as you suggested, it can invert or loosen when relaxed. It's in the same family with the bowline (a loop around a bight), and these are all insecure knots and potentially unstable as well. With two loops around the bight, it's sufficiently strong.
A life-safety knot needs to be:
strong (can handle the load without overly stressing the fibers)
secure (will not tend to untie when relaxed)
stable (will not tend to invert or collapse)
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Edited 3/5/2008 6:10 pm ET by Riversong
Your pic leads to another good link:
http://cmru.peak.org/Rigging/sheetbend.htm
So the sheet bend, with dbl. overhanded tails a-la fisherman's is a viable alternative then.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say when I first started climbing, the knot I was taught for a pull down rappel was a (dare I say it) square knot with a double fisherman's on either side. The double fisherman's provides the strength and the square knot prevents the dreaded cinch up. I don't use it any more but I did for many years. - KitTechnique is proof of your seriousness. - Wallace Stevens
i used that too.
nowadays, i use the european death knot. for rappelling, it's the way to go.
I agree. One of my partners took an AMGA course and it was what they recommended. I tie it with an 18" tail and tighten it securely.- KitTechnique is proof of your seriousness. - Wallace Stevens
Interesting use of the square knot, with tails backed up with double overhands. A sheet bend similarly backed up might be a viable option. Dunno.
Quote: "nowadays, i use the european death knot. for rappelling, it's the way to go."
LOL.
Anyone heard the one about rapelling off a sheep shank, where the middle unloaded strand in the hank is cut by the last rapeller after he's loaded the system? Makes for easy retrieval...however you sacrifice 15' or so of rope at the anchor. Desperate measures or self-rescue legend?
p.s. The cut sheep-shank is not recommended or endorsed in any way as its use would likely be 'just another way to go' = death.
Pierre,
Do you know what a "slippery hitch" is? It's a single hitch where the end is simply trapped under the standing part against whatever you are hitching on to.
Far more stable than a sheepshank but just as risky.
I have used it for lowering objects that I would prefer not to drop but didn't care very much if I did drop them. When they are at the bottom, you give the rope a good shake to free it and retrieve it.
Ron
Yes, a quick and handy knot.
Reminds me of what happens when lying or frolicking in bed and somehow our body weight tugs on the sheets so as to solidly pin one's arm to the bed.
Might be that's where the expression 'gettin' hitched' comes from. ;-)
Come to think of it, when it comes to getting things done, moved, secured....if there's some good rope around the problem can usually be solved.
Hey Ron, they still build keel/rib/plank sailboats out your way? In '79 got to visit the Stevens boatshed....Stevens and his race-winning sailboats had been written up in Harrowsmith which is how I found his place on Margarets Bay. 'Twas a real time machine.
Edit: Found some web references to Stevens who died in 1994.
Here's his last boat, the Dorothy Louise:
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Edited 3/8/2008 2:05 pm ET by Pierre1
Pierre,
I don't know of anybody building wooden boats in the traditional way.
I've seen some Stevens boats sdailing around, though. I would have regarded it as a privilege to have met him.
Ron
Do you know what a "slippery hitch" is?
A mule knot is a releasable-under-load hitch long used to tie off animals.
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Edited 3/8/2008 4:07 pm ET by Riversong
Riversong,
I like the artwork, but that looks to me like a slipped hitch, which isn't a slippery hitch. A slippery hitch is a scary one.
This picture is what I mean.
As a climber, you don't need to know this.
Ron
What you refer to as a "slippery hitch" is merely the simplest variety of slipped hitches, which is any hitch which finishes with a tucked bight that can be released under load.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_hitch
And, slipped hitches - such as the mule knot and muunter/mule are essential rescue and self-rescue tools.
Riversong,
This is barely important enough to warrant a reply, but here we go anyway.
The slippery hitch name I got from Ashley. It is not, given luck, a slipped hitch which can be released under load. The idea is that if there is a load it will not release. There is no tucked bight.
I didn't look at the wikipedia link. I believe Ashley.
Ron
when I first started climbing, the knot I was taught for a pull down rappel was a (dare I say it) square knot with a double fisherman's on either side.
Not ideal, but it'll work. What you used as a backup is NOT a double fisherman's which is a bend, but two double overhand knots.
Yep. I'm a long time Mountaineers member, I teach and climb with the folks that put Freedom of the Hills together. Up until ~3 years ago, we would only teach the students double fisherman knots for joining rappel ropes. After a great deal of debate and research, we featured the double overhand in the rappelling section of Freedom 7. Rabble-rousers like myself have used the EDK for good while longer, and it looks like ~20 - 30% of our climbers do the same. More every year. We have a lot of gnarly rock in the North Cascades, and stuck ropes are a serious hazard. I've had to free climb to a stuck rope more than once, and it always puts me in a pretty foul mood. Yarding on a stuck rope is also a great way to pull a rock down onto your helmet...Caveat emptor. If you don't want to use a knot, carry a 120M rope. Otherwise, you pays your money and you takes your chances!
I'm still working from the 4th edition.
By "double overhand" I assume you mean the EDK.
Does Freedom 7 at least recommend backing it up with another overhand or using the flat fishermans?
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Backing it up with a second EDK is mentioned. Freedom discusses options, but we try to avoid recommending methods. We do recommend methods to avoid, for example the overhand figure-8 for joining rappel lines. I'll have to check later on the flat fisherman, but I don't think we even discuss it.The biggest change in Freedom 7 is the ice section. We've updated it considerably. We've also added more GPS to the navigation chapter. Climb on!-t
We've also added more GPS to the navigation chapter.
Ah oh! Another great and often misused tool.
How many unnecessary SAR events have occured because someone(s) went out with a GPS and a cell phone, but no map and compass and no common sense?
Another great and often misused tool.
Yep. Was almost side-swiped by a Yukon yesterday as the driver was clearly having an argument with her tom-tom on the dash . . .
But, I admit to bias in that regard, too. Standing against a mast to get enough elevation to aproximate a horizion out of the chop through a sextant will do that to a person.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Like I said: it's a great tool if it's not misused (like driving while watching the GPS instead of the road).
When I was still doing wilderness SAR, we used GPS regularly. The problems occured when different teams or different people were using different datum sets (NAD 27 or NAD 83/WGS84) or translating Civil Air Patrol Lat-Lon to ground team UTM coordinates.
as far as I know, the approved method for joining two lines isn't a square knot, but a single overhand knot tied in the paralel/ends together lines with LOTS of tail.
You're talking about what is sometimes called a double fisherman's knot. (Edit to correct myself: I see that I misunderstood your description on first reading. But I see from a later post the double-fisherman discussed, so I'll let the rest stand.) That knot will hold, even in slippery plastic rope (the knot was originally developed for use in monofil, hence the name)...but as you note, it is almost impossible to untie once it has been placed under load. In the marine world, such a knot belongs to the genus 'Hatchet Knots', and since rope is considered a valuable commodity, putting a hatchet knot of any sort into a line is pretty much anathema.
The only excuse for using a hatchet knot is if there is no other knot that will do the job. In bending two climbing ropes together, this does not apply.
The reason for this is that, when rapelling (the most common situation where two ropes are joined), knots such as interlaced bowlines or figure eights are simply too bulky and tend to get hung up on the rock when pulling the rope down from the tie-in
In general, using two interlaced bowlines as a bend is an 'inelegant' solution, albeit one which is secure. It's the fall-back solution for use when for one reason or another none of the standard bends quite fit the application at hand. However, for a rappel rope, a Carrick bend will hold beautifully--whether the tails are seized or unseized--and it will not snag any more than a double fisherman would in pulling down your rappel. But please note: According to Freedom of the Hills, Rule 1 for recovering your rope is to know which rope to pull. In fact, the last climber down a rappel has the duty to double and triple check which rope has the knot on the low side of the anchor.
Note that there are four ways to tie a Carrick bend, but only one of them is correct: The tails must be diagonally opposed.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Edited 3/4/2008 8:34 pm ET by Dinosaur
My guess is that your rope experience is NOT from the rock climbing world.
A Carrick bend is an elegant knot, but like the bowline it's an insecure knot without backup (or seizing) - that is, it can come undone if slack - and for that reason is not considered a life-safety knot in any rope discipline I've been part of.
And, when we're talking about a knot (bend) getting snagged on pull-down, we're not refering to caught in the anchor but captured by a cleft in the rock as it's sliding down the face.
My guess is that your rope experience is NOT from the rock climbing world.
My rigging experience comes from working on traditionally rigged sailing vessels and also in the tugboat service of the Merchant Navy (from Able Seaman all the way up to Captain). I was also in charge of chairlift evacuation at the largest ski centre in eastern Canada for three years. I designed and wrote the protocols to evac every type of lift on our mountain, instituted the first controlled-inventory and life-history registration system for the gear, and when the gondola was installed I designed the evac plan required so the government would allow us to operate it with passengers.
But I also fought the rock-climbing clique at the mountain tooth and nail for most of that time, because previous to my getting that job they had had a virtual monopoly on evac 'expertise' in the patrol, and they didn't like having somebody come in who wouldn't kow-tow to their so-called 'knowledge'. I fought like hell to prevent them from overcomplicating techniques until only the rock climbers could possibly understand them; and I struggled vainly against the climbers' sport mentality...because chairlift rescue/evacuation is not a sport at all: it is a deadly-serious job wherein you hold people's lives in your hands, and you cannot quit doing if you don't like the way it's going (like bailing out when the 'route' up the wall gets too tough for you).
After three years of that, I had enough of being backstabbed and shat-upon by a bunch of macho cowboys who couldn't calculate the mechanical advantage or SWL in a simple gun tackle--or even rig one!-- so I quit.
Anyway, it's way past my supper time and I'm getting grouchy because this is starting to resemble 'way too much the same old-same old. I was afraid this was going to happen, dammit. So I'm gonna stop here. I'm not going to argue with you any longer about bowlines or Carrick bends or any of the other non-rock-climbing knots with 300 years of proven track record. The information is available in the literature for all who want it.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
My rigging experience comes from working on traditionally rigged sailing vessels
Yes, that was obvious. And it was equally obvious that you were trying to impose marlinspike seamanship terminology and technique onto another rope discipline which also has a long history and from which the rope rescue discipline emerged.
After three years of that, I had enough of being backstabbed and shat-upon by a bunch of macho cowboys who couldn't calculate the mechanical advantage or SWL in a simple gun tackle--or even rig one!-- so I quit.
And I'm sure that those "cowboys", who had been doing the rescue work for years, had an equally inappropriate opinion of you.
But it's clear why you had to quit: you were (and still are) unable to accept and adopt the terms and techniques of the rope rescue discipline you shifted into.
While I agree that most climbers and cavers know only a small set of handed-down knots and techniques and don't have a grasp of rigging theory without significant advanced training, calling a 2:1 CD a "gun tackle" or a 3:1 Z-rig a "luff tackle" is a surefire way to alienate and confuse those you work with in this field.
Good point ,but thats the way some of their competitors finish off the ends of their ropes.
I like to put flemish eye splices in the ends of all my ropes. AKA 'molly hogan eye'
And how is that done ??
how is that done ??
3rd google hit
http://www.katradis.gr/download/flemish_eye_instructions.pdf
For rope, a couple of heavy pieces of heat shrink tubing works for termination vs. metal swage (as used for wire rope)
Your rope grab won't get past the (factory installed) snap hook, so.... why do anything? Seems like a lot of work to accomplish the same goal. If you leave both hooks in tact, you will always have a good anchor end if one of the hooks were to get damaged in the future (at which point it should definitely be cut off). Just a thought.
While using the rope for roofing and during the course of moving around on the roof-- the large metal snap hook can fetch up or do damage to the lowest course of slate.
Kinda thought about that after my post.... But, isn't the end supposed to be on the ground? Getting caught from a fall in mid-air can be as damaging or more once you pendulum swing into something... or someone.
In my experience on swing stages and inspecting buildings by rapelling, it is absolutley mandatory that all safety lines reach the ground with plenty of slack.
it is absolutley mandatory that all safety lines reach the ground with plenty of slack.
Not if you're working on a roof. The idea is to be able to move freely on the roof deck and not fall off the edge, get caught hanging, or hit the ground.
This makes it a fall-prevention system which is far safer than a fall-arrest system (which would require a shock absorbing lanyard).
Robert,
While roofing and using safety ropes we use rope grabs and shock absorbing lanyards-- I don't follow your thought about tieing knots to prevent leaving the eaves.
Could you explain that please ?
Walter
In your original post, you said: "I want to cut off the hooks off one end of both ropes and back splice the ends so my rope grabs can't go beyond the splice."
I assumed you meant you wanted something to stop you from going off the roof. Perhaps you were only looking for something to keep from losing your rope grab.
When I use a fall-protection system on a roof, I put a stopper knot on the rope just above the roof edge in case the rope grab gets stuck open and slides.
A fall-arrest system is nice until you find yourself hanging in space attached at the dorsal (rear) d-ring. You're pretty helpless even if you haven't pendulumed into the building or through a window.
I prefer attaching to a waist-level connection so I can self-rescue. And I'd rather be caught before I go over the edge.
But if what you have is laid 3-strand rope, a backsplice is a nice way to finish it off.
Edited 3/1/2008 9:37 pm ET by Riversong
That clears that up for me, but I don't like the idea of the knot itself cathing up and altering your roof movement.
I also prefer and use a Pitzel sit harness while roofing.
Walter
Yes It was to keep the rope from unwinding and achieve a smaller profile Thanks
Ditto on the double overhand stopper knot (or barrel knot). Easy to tie and can be tied wherever it's needed to prevent sliding off the eaves.
Tying instructions are on the same site linked above:
http://www.animatedknots.com/stopperscouting/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com
Make sure you use an approved roof anchor like:
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200338299_200338299
a splice or a knot is an OSHA violation. Knots is a definite violation, the company I'm working for just was fined a thousand for a knot.
Either one is dangerous as fall protection.
I understand that if it were on the working part of the rope.
My use is to keep the free end from unravelling -- the same as other makers use to keep a rope grab from going off the rope.
Knots is a definite violation...dangerous as fall protection.
Not as dangerous as siding down to the ground!
I agree with JTC1. A splice-type termination will lay too flat and not create a good stop. Better to use a stop knot.
No need to cut the rope at all -- just remove the snaps with an angle grinder.
Dan,
I appreciate the input, but I'm trying to avoid having a large knot which has a tendency to hang up on the lowest courses of slateswhile working across the roof plane.
Several other suppliers of ropes that I own also have the back spliced ends. It has more than enough size to prevent my grabs from exiting the ropes.
Walter
The best book i ever read on the subject? Try the merit badge book for Pioneering by the Boy Scouts. Thats how i learned. an old timere actually showed me how to splice an eye in the center of rope without cutting or knoting the rope...pretty nifty if you need to replace a tow line for a ski lift i guess...
Edit:
Wow, i guess the thread no longer is about how to splice but why not to splice lol!
Edited 3/2/2008 7:56 pm ET by Spalted
Thanks I'll check that out.