Hello to everyone from a new poster.
I’m remodeling and need to change the wiring around with a minimum of tearing out drywall. I currently have a 4-way leg serving a 2 story foyer light. We plan to floor-in the second story for a bedroom and want to use the foyer light box for a bedroom light in the new bedroom, then put a new light on the new first floor foyer ceiling served by 2 of the original 3 switches, making it a 3 way. I want to retain the point wire to the existing light so I don’t have to run wires in the attic, and I want to retain the travelers between two of the existing 3 switches so I don’t have to rewire between them.
I’ll spare the details of the wiring because it is difficult to explain without a picture, but I think I can accomplish what I want to do if I introduce power from a circuit other than the one on which the two lights will have their neutrals. So the existing foyer light that will become the bedroom light will have its neutral remain on the foyer circuit, and I will introduce a new power feed from a bedroom circuit (OK, here is some detail: I can pass the load off this switch through the old 4 way circuit down to the last 3way switch and through the last wire up to the attic and to the light. This uses one conductor of the 3 between the switches of the 4-way. This conductor currently carries power) . Then the new foyer light will have its neutral on the foyer circuit but will get its power from the upstairs hall circuit (and I’ll use the 2 remaining conductors between the remaining two switches as the travelers in the new 3 way). Of course I’ll add a 2 conductor cable from the foyer switch up to the new foyer light.
I know all the neutrals go back to the same neutral bus, so I’m hoping that if they travel a different route to the box than its power came from it would be OK. I know this isn’t the “right” way to do it, but if there is no harm in doing so, it would make my wiring job easier. And isn’t it “allowed” to hack a little bit in remodels anyway?
Thanks for any suggestions!
John
–you probably guessed I’m not a licensed electrician
Replies
I wouldn't do it. Reason being is that the next guy that works on the electrical will throw the breaker for the foyer power and ... woh....uh....why is the neutral carrying current .... ? Because the neutral in the foyer light is actually returning current from some other power circuit.
Hacks are never allowed in electrical work. That is serious stuff. I'd find some other way to make it work, even if that meant going up into the attic. It would help if you posted a diagram of the existing conditions, including where power enters this entire 4 way switch assembly. Is it at the light box or one of the switch boxes? Also post what is desired and we might be able to work through it.
MERC.
Thanks for reminding me that the neutral carries power when the light is on. I don't want to hack that way either.
I can draw a picture.... does the forum allow attachments, say of powerpoint?
John
You can attach. When posting, see the "Attach Files" button. It will take any attachment, but I doubt many here can open Powerpoint. I can, but I'd try something more general like pdf maybe.
MERC.
Have you got MS Paint? It's good for makeing quick little sketches and diagrams.
YOu may want to read http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=48222.14
SamT
As DJ said. It's unsafe and code violation. Looking forward to seeing the wiring diagram.
OK, so here is the diagram. I hope it is clear what I would like to do. If not, please ask away and I will clarify. The key is that I'm trying to avoid new wiring to the attic and new wiring between the foyer and the 2nd floor hallway. Did I mention that the current two story foyer is a cathedral, so getting another wire up there for the bedroom light will be a double pain.
The file is html so you should be able to read it with Internet Explorer. let me know if you can't
thanks for your help!!!
John
I don't know what you tried to do, but when you try to view it it points to prospero.
And when I downloaded and looked at it, it refered to files that are on YOUR COMPUTER.
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft PowerPoint 9">
<link rel=File-List href="./Foyer%20lighting_files/filelist.xml">
<link rel=Preview href="./Foyer%20lighting_files/preview.wmf">
<link rel=Edit-Time-Data href="./Foyer%20lighting_files/editdata.mso">
<link rel=OLE-Object-Data href="./Foyer%20lighting_files/oledata.mso">
What you want to do is to generate a .jpg or .gif file and up load that.
But I can tell you that what you want to do is illegal.
The simple rule is that the NET current in any cable or conduit has to be zero.
That is the current flowing in the hot wire(s) has to equal current in the neutral wire.
That is for each and every cable.
Something is not working, got directed to the Prospero site, no wiring diagram.
Try again.
It's getting late, I'll be logging off soon. So I'll sleep on this one. :)
Have no idea what happened on the attachment. here are some jpg files.
john
First some general rules about neutrals--
1] You cannot parallel neutrals.Exception: Over #1 gauge.
2] You cannot switch neutrals.Ex. If all conductors are switched simultaneously as in a three pole transfer switch.
3] Neutrals must be run with the power conductors.Ex. Swich legs. The idea is that the currents must balance out, i.e. current is flowing in opposite directions.
4] Neutrals cannot be borrowed from other circuits.Ex. Multiwire circuits.
If I understand your situation and what you want to do, you will run into problems with rules #3 and #4. Currently you have power fed to the front door switch, which I assume is on the first floor. The feed for the foyer light also comes from there. Then you have 12-3 going to the upstairs hall switch and from that another 12-3 going to the old office switch. Now you want to have the old office control the foyer light and the other two switches to control a new light on the ceiling of a new floor to be built. Is this correct? And you will have certain walls opened up?
Perhaps you could break into the wall where the cable goes from the front door switch to the light and install a junction box and splice into that line.
~Peter
JW,
Well, i finally had some time to go over your drawings and parse your posts.
Given that you will be pulling new power to the new BR for outlets, you might as well pull one new 14/2 to the old office switch. open up the BR wall over the entry door and you will probably find the cable to the foyer/BR light.
Cut it there and put in a j-box (2 if you dont have enough slack), then, from the entry end, splice a new 12/2 to the new foyer light, which will be in the new floor joists.
On the old light end, splice a new cable to the old office/new BR switch.
Abandon the 12/3 from the old office switch to the upstairs hall and rewire the upstairs hall switch box as I've shown in the "New Wiring" attachment.
Check out the "Existing" attachment to see if I correctly understand what you now have.
SamT
SamT:Thanks very much for the time and the suggestion.
Your "existing" drawing is right on the money.
Your suggestion is good. THe JBox should allow me to even avoid cutting into the drywall wall above the foyer switch box; I can cut it at the new joist level and reach in and get the wires. But I can't bury a j box in the joists, right? Well, anyway, I'll figure out where to cut into that at that time.
The only thing in your suggestion that isn't right is that the old office switch box is going away. It is really going to be just a new switch box in the new bedroom. I was only trying to use the old office switch box (that I would have pulled up into the new bedroom since the walls are now open) if I could have used the 12/3 path back through the upstairs hall 4 way box and down to the foyer. SInce we aren't doing that, the old office switch box is garbage.
thanks again for your help!!
John
>>But I can't bury a j box in the joists, right? Well, anyway, I'll figure out where to cut into that at that time.
Use a deeper box and also use it for an outlet. Or put a blank cover on it and paint to match the walls in the BR.
By code it must be accessable.
SamT