Spray Foam Call-Back Justified?
I just had my kitchen and a crawl space insulated with Icynene spray foam and I’m not thrilled with the results. I will certainly admit that I am very particular about the work done in my house (don’t get me started on my electricians) — so I thought I would ask you all first if you think a call back is justified. I have attached several pics, mainly what I notice is that in several areas the foam appears to not have adhered well, and then there are also several places where it seems to have expanded leaving a 1-1-1/2″ cavity between the sheathing and the foam. Hopefully the photos communicate this. Then in the crawl space, the joist bays look great but in along the rim joist was not covered well which is the area that needs it the most in my opinion.
Curious to hear your thoughts.
Sean
Replies
Absolutely call them back. There should not be voids.
I have heard in forums, from foam salesman, etc about the wonders of spray foam. Greatest stuff since sliced bread. No voids, no vapor barrier, 10 times better than fiberglass, etc. But in practice, what you get is some 18-year-old half wit with a foam rig and a spray gun, and it comes out looking like your job. That's BS.
Those pics show what I have seen as more typical in the field. Sure don't look like the pictures in the spray foam brochures, do it? The problem is that you need to have a detail orientated, quality conscious individual who is willing to don a suit and spray the stuff. Not easy to come by.
Hmmm ... hard to say. I'm not well versed. I've seen foam and wet cellulose jobs and they seem to be even and complete (no voids). Hopefully an experienced poster will reply. I'd check on the web and see what you can find ... manuf. or installer's info showing you what you might expect.
Why is your floor insulated? Unheated basement? If so, the rim may not be an issue. If the floor joists are supposed to be full, then the job is not complete. If the basement is heated or tempered, the rim should be full to the inside of the mudsill/plate.
I'm also thinking the foam should never shrink as it has seemed to appear to do in the one pic. I'm guessing that is a problem in the foam mixture.
I tend to agree w/ the other poster ... the merits that they use to sell you the product are filling all cavities and no voids to limit air leakage and convective heat loss.
please post the turnout, I plan on doing some spray foam and need to know what is acceptable. I wouldn't think what you showed would be a good job.
I'de call em up and ask when they are coming to finish
With the Icy the installer needs to layer it in. spray the sides of the studs/rafters, wait spray the sides of the next bay or two, cycle back and spray the first layer between the now expanded foam on the studs, wait, repeat on next bay or two, cycle back and build up the second / third / etc on the foam until the contracted depth is achieved.
This guy just sprayed until he hit a decent depth and went on, not noticing that this all at once approach gave a deficient job. In some situations spraying this thick all at once can actually cause the foam to heat up and potentially cause a fire hazard, so I hear though it's difficult to imagine. certainly it leads to the problems seen in these images.
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I don't have any personal experience with spray foam other than the spray can stuff. With the Icynene using this layering technique you describe, how long does one need to wait between layers and roughly how long until it is pretty much fully expanded?
As it is being sprayed is the house filled with nasty odors or gasses making it infeasible for a person to be in there other than the person(s) with all the protective gear doing the actual installation?
In my experience the expansion is fairly full in about twenty seconds. The house is filled with atomized sticky globules that will attach themselves to your camera lens, glasses, and the lungs of anyone working where the spraying is going on. Best to stay away except for brief inspection runs. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Wow - that is pretty fast especially compared to the Great Stuff (which ain't that great) which, I believe takes more like 20 minutes to fully expand.
on a side note, is your crawl space vented ?
concrete floor, dirt floor ?
vapor barrier ?
any water lines in the crawlspace ?
what is your crawlspace access ?
carpenter in transition
thanks for the replies, I will be calling them back in and I'll reserve my judgement on the contractor until I see how he responds. I am suprised by this though since I used an Icynene certified installer, I would have expected a near-perfect install. Hopefully if I don't get a good response from my contractor I can go directly to Icynene. I am dissappointed so far though, I've been dying to have a reason to use this stuff for the longest time.To answer your questions timkline, the crawlspace has a vent that is currently sealed up -- I hear many differing views on vented vs. non-vented crawlspaces. The floor is dirt, there is no vapor barrier at the moment but I will be putting one in as soon as I get the chance. There is actually a good FHB article from several months ago on insulating crawlspaces, I will probably use that as my guide. The only plumbing lines are the main water coming from the street and the main waste. Access to the crawlspace is great, there is a door and the height is about 4-1/2 feet.Clewless -- I was expecting the rim to be filled mainly to prevent air infiltration.Thanks again, I'll keep you posted on how this develops.
I am going to tell you something you may already know, but...
If you insulate the crawlspace with foam, how are you attaching the required drywall?
That is required for living spaces or at combustion sources, rarely in crawlspaces. Probably depends on local interpretation and enforcement.
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with a vented (?) crawl space the rim joist is not normally insulated. Just the bottom of the floor above. I'd say it depends on what was in your bid/contract/whatever you had from the insulation company.
i ask this because i have seen many unvented crawlspaces with dirt floors and no vapor barrier with both spray foam and/or fg batts installed upside down where the bottom edges of the joists rotted away to nil.
carpenter in transition
I won't be trying to open that many ultra large photos on dial up, but failing to do the rim joist tells me that you had hacks or in-experienced installers.
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Thank you sir! You are a gentleman if not a scholar!That ios real bad work. Makes me wonder yet again why anyone would want icy instead of urethene foam, but still sign of bad install there. Somebody needs training. I agree with a previous comment that it looks like bad chemical mixing. I don't know if some of that could be fixed without removing it and replacing it. Gaps like that will cause condensation and mold problems.
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Holy callback! This is a photo of a very, very expensive new house project in my village, in which the roof deck all got sprayfoamed between framing and up against the deck. Eleven (11) inches was required by the specifier, and that is what got sprayed into the rafter bays.
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After all the inside finish and trim was up, and the winter season having started, it became apparent that something was causing a lot of heat leakage up through the insulation and deck. You can see in the photo where the snow is melted.
Investigation showed huge shrinkage cracks in bays. It was the grand canyon of foam jobs.
The fix, a very expensive one, and the cost likely being borne by the foam applicator's insurer, was to re-roof over the top, going down first with two layers of 2" rigid polyiso foamboard, then a nail-base insulation product skinned with OSB, then paper and shingles. A massive crown mold buildup was done at the roof edges to give it a slim edge appearance again.
So, bottom line, yes, the foam guy can get it wrong, and did on your job. He needs to fix it.
I was in a business (ThermaTru insulated entry doors) in which we used tanker truckloads per week of closed cell foam chemicals. It can be a very sensitive process, with elaborate temperature and mixing controls, close-scrutiny quality programs, mix sampling, ratio sampling, surface temperature sampling, yadda, yadda, yadda. Sh*t can happen, and does.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
This is the second thread I have seen today where it appears the installer was not properly trained.
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I believe that is what killed the foam business in the 70's, poor installation and the formaldahide!
The roof in your photo appears to be metal why did they go back with shingles? Just curious?
Low roofs are all copper. High roofs are all shingled.
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"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Got concerns? Get the bastards back and get them to make it right. Take lots of photographs. There's no way the foam should be pulling away from the studs- the lack of gaps in the foam job is one of the key selling points of this product's enormous up-front cost!
Trust me: that "Icynene certified installer" #### is just that. The sales guy for the company who screwed up my garage/shop foam install had an "icynene.com" e-mail address- yet they refused to stand behind their work. Left my place stinking of excess resin for months, even after a solid month with the windows wide open. Even when I installed the vapour barrier over the foam, it was unable to contain the remaining smell. Even now, years later, if I keep the place tight for a week, I can detect a hint of the odor when I open the door.
In my case they were having equipment problems, sprayed a little too much resin and then covered the affected area up with foam once they got the unit working right again. The trouble is, the installer didn't remember WHERE this was done, and needed his job so he wasn't about to 'fess up to his boss. The foam company had no interest in tearing it all down and replacing at their cost- the only way I was getting that was to sue them. They cut out some sections of the foam and "tested" it in some way they never explained, and claimed it was fine- despite the fact that the salesman definitely smelled the residual odor when I called him back.
I needed my shop to finish my project, so I had to just suck it up and move on.
The good news is that the shop is tighter than a drum and takes next to nothing to heat. So the foam's ability to insulate was not affected.
If I had the project to do again, I wouldn't have stopped the ICFs in the basement- I'd have poured the sucker to the eaves!