I am considering using spray foam in lieu of fiberglass since I belive it will be more effective – Anyone have experiences with foam or know if my thoughts of being more effective are correct? And what about this double stuffed cellulose in the walls – Will that actually work? What about moister in the paper insulation, is there a vapor barrier on the outside wall?
To all that reply – thanks in advance.
Replies
DoOver.
I have foam insulation and yes it works. (I used SIP's in leu of stick built but that's another topic)...
MY brother-in-law used spray foam and here's the benefits..
nearly X the sized house yet lower heating costs using the same boiler..
much more quiet. house is much stiffer.. when the wind used to blow across the frozen lake the house used to creak and moan, now with foam it's don't budge.
He sprayed it under the floor above and you can't hear anything going on. Before bedroom activity, (emmmmmm,.... well you know what I mean) could be clearly heard below. Now you could hold a circus and nothing is heard..
In addition the floor which had a slight bounce to it is noteably stiffer.
PS if you are in the planning stages you could look at alternatives. If the house is built I won't waste my time explaining cheaper better to you..
Thanks for the info -
Now the what type of foam question - I was looking at icynene. Do you have a a knowledge of this foam? What type of foam did you use?
And what is SIP?
Ed
DoOver,
A SIP is a structural insulated panel.. basically foam sandwhich with OSB on either side.. they've been in use since WW2 as freezer panels and found use during the energy crisis as panels for timberframe homes.. Today they can be used in stand alone construction. (meet all codes etc. ) Nice fire resistance, 200% stronger than stick built.
Extremely efficent because unlike traditional stick built homes homes built with SIP's have no thermal bridging between inside and outside like most construction has.
If you note insulation only gets an 80% rating because of that thermal bridging effect and some insulation (like fiberglas) while it may test at a R 19 in the real world it's actual R rating number is much lower when removed from the labratory due to testing methods..
By building with SIP's the walls go up much much faster than stick building and in most cases you can simply put windows in wherever you have a good spot..
One other choice you have is ICF's. They can be wonderfully insulated, Go up really fast. Extremely simple, can be built by women with absolutely no construction experiance.
While my foundation is ICF's and my walls and ceilings are SIP's if I had to do all over agian I'd build with ICF's up to the ceiling and cover the roof with SIP's
I should explain costs to you. I can only speak to the cost of materials and not to labor.. I built my own house.
I found SIP's panels to be cheaper than stick building and then insulating. I think back when I bought my panels they were a little less than $3.00 a sq.ft. for the 6 inch foam ones (7 inches with OSB) and the ceiling was about $3.50 for the ten inch roofing panel. (11 inches thick)
That's raw cost and does not include nails, glue or spray cans of foam..
ICF's were slightly cheaper once errected and filled with concrete..
Because there were so few contractors building with SIP's I never got a bid, however I do know that today ICF houses can be sold/ built for the same price as tradional stick built houses..
here in the midwest an ICF house will withstand 200 MPH wind speed and has a 2 hour fire rating.. Nice in tornado alley ;-)
It's not prone to rot or bug infestations or affected by earth quakes.
Edited 12/29/2007 5:22 pm ET by frenchy
We have spray in place foam and love it. Hefty upcharge but over time it will pay for itself. At 40 degrees outside the house barely slides down from 70 after sitting all day.
This is what we have - http://www.ncfi.com/residential.html
Jeff
Do Over,
Ok I didn't explain why I went with Foam.
Both fiberglas and celluliose have virtually zero R value if wet.. whereas foam will just shrug off moisture.. Moisture happens all too easily even in relatively tight spaces.. it could be a leak from outside or a less than perfect vapor barrier or whatever the cause is..
OK, loose fill foam is affected by moisture but not to the degree that the others are.. and we aren't speaking about loose fill foam..
Celluliose doesn't have the air flow proerties that fibergals does and so it isn't affected by thermal scrubbing the way fiberglas is.. What happens with Fiberglas is it's very good at letting air flow through it.. that's why furnace filters are made from fiberglas..
inside temp is at 70 degrees outside temp is at say zero or below..
within the wall cavity the outside air sinks and the inside air rises.. (warm air rises cold air sinks) so we take heat from the inside and scrub it against the cold outside wall where it is quickly drawn off..
The R value tested in a labratory is tested at 70 degree? (70dgrees?) yeh! 70!
So there isn't any scrubbing effect. However real world and that warm air scrubbing against the cold outside wall quickly removes heat.
Mind if I clarify a couple of things?The testing on FG batts is done at a differenctial of ten degrees between 70 and 60, not at a static seventy. That would be impossible.But you point is correct - that in the real world, insulation needs to perform at a differential of more like 40 to 80 degrees. and FG simply does not measure up.The other point I wanted top make is that he is considering ICY, not closed cell. Icy is oft reported to absorb and hold moisture due to its open celled nature, so you comparison with cellulose and spray foam is invalid on that point. If he goes with polyurethene foam which is closed cell, he gets twice the R-value and a VB.When the money is there, I go with Corbond, but if not, I would take cellulose or BIBBs over icy from al I have heard of it.
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This just came out and I thought you (and everybody else here) would like to see it since it supports your post.http://www.coastalcontractor.net/cgi-bin/abstract.pl?id=181As for the cracking in CCF it is often caused by spraying to much at once. To thick a 'lift' generates alot of internal heat that causes thermal cracking.
Hey there,
I used the Breaktime search engine to look up this topic the other night. Over 50 hits, very good info.
Good luck
I've got similar questions. For those who used foam, which kind? Open cell? Closed cell? Frenchy, what is the foam used in your SIPS? The nearest mfg. for me, I think is West Virginia (I'm in Richmond, VA) and they use EPS, I think. There's very little local experience in the builder community, that I've found.I've wondered if foam wouldn't firm up a stick built house. But would the closed cell, medium dense foam be so stiff that over time it might crack like metal fatigue? Haven't seen any indication, but wonder.An insulation guy I spoke with prefers open cell to prevent moisture in the walls, but I don't see how moisture gets into a closed cell wall, unless there are breaks...I still have lee way on the design for our new home, but the window is closing fast.Frank
I can't imagine why a guy would think open celled would prevent moisture in walls. There are several reports here of those who find that it holds moisture like a sponge.Closed cell has several advantages.
It does stiffen things up.
Either kind will reduce noise levels.
Closed cell has rated R-76 while open celled Icynene is R 3.5
Closed cell is a VB also. I have never used open Icy, but I can't really imagine why anybody would unless the price were half of the closed.See if you can find a Corbond dealer/installer for your area. Even if you can't - or choose not to use them, they have done more research and testing on foam insulation, and infiltration sudies, than anybody else out there. They have a book out that I think may be published online also, entitled "Walls that work" that covers all the basics and a lot of the research.There are other polyurethane close cell foams available also. Corbond does add treatments for insects and is a proprietary franchise.You mention cracking also - If the surfaces are clean and warm, the bond is complete. The foam can shrink back away from dirty surfaces, or from cold contacts. I had one house foamed in extreme cold weather where we had heated it well for two days prior, but cold wind was blowing with below zero temps when it was foamed. There were two bays on the windy side that had fracturing of the foam that showed immediately and he hit them again.The cracking comes because it shrinks back quickly before it cures.Think of how your sack shrinks if you sit in ice cold water. the foam does the same thing.
My apologies if you are female and sackless.
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Piffin, Around here open cell is about half the price, of closed (40 vs 95 cents). Last time I checked code compliance/testing most foam can not be used unless covered by a fire barrier. One company I know does have code testing and compliance, they produce both open and closed, open cell is has the most code acceptance.While open cell will absorb water it also telegraphs problems to the inside of the structure rather than hiding a problem like closed cell.In wet locations with prober substrate or limited depth applications closed cell is the SF of choice, but for most other applications I will opt for open cell.Garett
While watching "This Old House" I saw Tommy using an expanding foam which came from a device that was a little like a garden sprayer, except the tank was actually two bottles. I would like to foam certain parts of an attic expansion i am doing to my house, but I'm looking for economical and smart methods. Buying 12 cases of "great stuff" won't cut it, LOL.Does anyone know of a system like the one on TOH?Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Tiger foam or Fomo foam have kits like that for small areas.
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Edited 1/12/2008 1:50 pm ET by Piffin
I looked up the cost on Tiger Foam. $300 for 16 cubic feet!!?? Thats outta sight! I know my spray foam (closed, why anyone would do open is beyond me) could do much better. Haven't seen his new prices with the 100 dollar barrels of oil, but get a quote from a pro before you shell out the dough. My guy will let me measure it up for him and give me a number in about 30 seconds. Saves the both of us some time.
Has anyone ever used SIP roof panels on a stick framed structure?
I have a complete tear roof tear off in my near future and the framing is undersized (100+ yr old dimensional 2x6) my options right now are:
1. sister new lumber and keep existing pitch
2. tear off every thing, block as neceassary, and stick frame new roof
3. tear off every thing, block as neceassary, install roof trusses
4. SIP's ??
I'd like to as much of the framing/ roofing myself (as time permits) Odviously with trusses it would be adventageous to coordinate a crane/ forklift and certainly this would be a necessity with SIPS.
I should also mention that the exisiting roof pitch is too low for any usable space in the attic and my preference would be to completely tear it out, frame an exterior wall extension and increase the pitch to facilitate the eventual attic conversion. The material cost differential is miniscule when considering keeping the existing roof pitch vs. increasing it. The amount of time and labor is about double, which is a major consideration should I try to do anything myself. Id have to extend the walls higher in order to use trusses (scissors trusses) but it would expedite things considerably and get the roof on a heck of a lot quicker.
I appologise in advance for the hijack
SIPS, depending on cost could do the same for me.
Joe, you'd probably get a better response if you created a new thread with your question.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
My foamers won't even set up for less than $400 - 600. Yes Tiger is expensive. So is Enerfoam kits or Fomofoam, but if a pro installer is going to do only 15 feet, the price will be higher per foot than the kits
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closed, why anyone would do open is beyond me)
OK, here's a practical example: I just finished off the second floor of a large garage as living space for a client. The walls and roof were sprayed with closed cell. The floor framing was open-web joists, with radiant floor heat.
The floor was sprayed with open cell because:
Virtually no chance of vapor transmission or leaks from outside.
Foam expands more, to better fill around webs of joists.
Plenty of depth in joist--no extra labor to come back and scrape flush, like they do for walls.
OK mike, but you get all that and more with closed cell foams.
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Closed cell expands more/better around the webs, and costs less.
Otherwise I'm right there with ya.
You guys have it soooo good.
Around here closed cell is @2.50-3.00 sq ft
I would like to add that we do not have the extreme differences that you'all have up north in the inside versus outside temps.
On average, i'd say 20 +/- degrees.
Fiberglass while not the ideal solution in the stud bays are BY FAR much more economical and faily effficient when installed properly. r-13 is dirt cheap a bundle versus anything else I have encountered.
Sorry for the derailment.
I went closed cell in my roofs and gable ends. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it"
If any of you are considering spray foam you might want to consider contacting Demilec USA. http://www.demilecusa.com We are a builder in southern RI and started a spray foam insulation business 5 years ago to insulate our own homes and remodeling projects http://www.greensealsprayfoam.com Our company sprays both open and closed cell foam depending upon the application. The important points to remeber which I can see most all of you already know is that whether it be open or closed cell, spray foam insulation's greatest benefit in maintaining its R Value is that it is an air sealer, and it maintains its stability over time. We spray open cell foam in walls and roof systems most of the time. We spray closed cell generally only when there is need for additional R per inch, or in a below grade application such as a basement wall. Sorry don't mean to ramble on, but I hope this helps.
An open cell contractor told me the same thing--about open cell showing a moisture problem and closed cell hiding it. I understand that open gets wet and closed doesn't, but not the next part where that means open is a better choice than closed.
The closed cell doesn't show the moisture problem because it's a vapor barrier and doesn't absorb the water rather keeps it out, which is good. The open cell lets moisture in, gets wet and could potentially transfer the moisture to other surfaces, like drywall and studs, which is bad.
If I have a roofing problem, am I not better off keeping the water out? I guess the potential danger if undisovered is greater water damage to the roof decking under the shingles, but there is already damage so what's a little more?
I would rather have a mute security guard who keeps people off my property than one who lets them in and tells me about it. Eventually, if I am paying a little attention to house, I am problably going to know that people are repeatedly trying to break through my gate. But I could be wrong, and I invite someone to set me straight on this.
The science from the closed cell insulators is well tested and documented. So much of what I hear like this from the open celled people smells like week old fish.
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What about spray foam directly under a roof? I know this is a pretty controversial topic, as some people think it's great to spray foam insulation directly to the underside of roof sheathing, and others think you must have a space to breathe.
If you wanted to allow a space for breathing, but still use spray foam insulation, is there a method that allows that? I've seen those baffles that are used at where the roof meets the soffit vent, but that seems like overkill. I'd think you could almost use some kind of a cardboard to simply keep the foam from directly hitting the roof (although maybe cardboard wouldn't be stiff enough against the expansion).
You can use the stiff foam baffles sold to allow soffit vents to blow air through / over fiberglass attic insulation or you can use shingles or metal roofing rated for foamed roofdeck application such as Elk or Certainteed. We use the certainteed and spray the bottom of the osb with open cell foam here in North Carolina. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
yes, lots of ways to do foam to underside of roof.some claim it detrimental, but I disagree.
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"If I have a roofing problem, am I not better off keeping the water out? I guess the potential danger if undiscovered is greater water damage to the roof decking under the shingles, but there is already damage so what's a little more?"Not necessarily, in Florida wind and rain caused roof damage to homes with "hot decks" sprayed with hard foam, (an application that is still not approved) and no roof damage was noted by home owners, their insurance companies or the adjusters. Other damage from the storms was fixed and claims paid...until the next season when shingles started plowing off the rotted roof decks. Roof sheathing and truss members where saturated and rotting. The insurance companies called it existing, long term damage from improper maintenance and only covered the replacement of the shingles. I do not have the article but it was in a news paper in Florida. I like hard foam in the right application. Just not all applications.I understand the arguments for hard foam, after all we are men. Strong is better than weak
hard is better than soft
more is a good thing
higher R value is good
it cost more it's got to be better....and the list goes on. but when you look into the science that goes into the products and the applications they are designed and tested for soft foam has advantages in application and energy savings.And don't even get me started on the green issues...R for R hard foam uses double the resourses (material and instillation time) for equal insulating value. 1/2lb. foam uses 1/4 the material per volume as 2lb. and has half the insulating value and is just more than half the cost to produce.Garett
Let me get this straight.They suffered hurricane force winds and rain.
nobody checked to see if water was blown under the shingles, or even whether underlayment had been used.
The people responsible for maintaining the house let the plywood or OSB sheathing steam in the hot florida sun for a year or two,And somehow the foam is at fault?
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LMAO - Sack shrinkage.
Nice analogy Piffin.
Thanks Piffin,It took me this long to stop laughing!My question was different though. I understand the issues of application temperature (from a previous thread here). What I'm asking is, over time, will the flexing of the wall system from wind, minor earth quakes, etc. lead to "fatigue cracking" like when you bend a metal coat hanger back and forth many times and it breaks? I'm thinking of the long term behavior of the more rigid, closed cell foam but have never seen information on this. I may contact the manufacturers, but I'd like to hear real world experience on this.Frank
Docter science.
Only time will really tell but I don't believe so.. The foam stiffens up the whole assembly so much that there really isn't much flexing..
You have to be in a house that has been sprayed with foam in order to appreciate just how stiff foam makes the house (and how quiet)
Think about a thermos bottle part of the stregnth of that bottle comes from the foam..
While a stick built house won't be as thermally efficent as a real foam lined house (SIP's or ICF's) it comes almost 80% of the way..
I don't know, but I don't believe it would stress crack based on the experiences I've had with it.
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Doctoe Science,
Sorry Piffin answered it for me..
He's right!
Oh by the way yes, EPS is what is used in SIP's