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Sprayed foam from the outside?

Ribs | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on April 8, 2005 11:01am

Here’s what I’ve got. I live in a 1935 English Colonial. Small only about 1300 Sq Ft. (2200 sq ft of surface area for the job) I live about 12 miles North of Boston. The whole neighborhood has paint issues with the houses. We have a lot of old Oak trees (read big shade) that keep the yards cool but damp after rain and humidity in the summer. Great old neighborhood but terrible on the paint. Paint on all the houses is constantly popping and peeling.

Anyway we had some work done last year so most of the back of the house has new cedar shingles. We would like to replace the rest and in the process get some insulation in the walls. Right now we have none (other than in the new Kitchen and Mudroom area). I’m probably going to do the shingles on my own. What I’d like to do is use some type of sprayed foam which could be sprayed in the wall cavity as the reshingling is done (wood planks on the outside). Remove planks on each stud bay (2X4 walls) and insulate from the outside. After the new shingles are on they will be stained not painted.

Questions
What type of foam would work best in this situation?
I’ve heard horror stories of buckling walls on the inside due to the foam expansion. But also heard it can be done this way.

Open cell or closed? Why one over the other? Specifically which brands?

I’ve read the foam will act as both a vapor barrier and insulation as well as sealing out drafts (boy do we have those). Does this all sound correct? In fact the reason for using the foam is partly to eliminate the drafts.

What do the various foams run per sq ft? First estimate seemed pretty high.

Are there other alternatives? Densely packed cellulose perhaps? that also don’t need vapor barriers (I don’t see any way to install one from the outside and I’m not gutting the inside)

Thanks

Ribs

Reply

Replies

  1. User avater
    DDay | Apr 09, 2005 01:49am | #1

    look at http://www.icynene.com/ 

    you probably got the estimate from the one in salem, ma I talked to them a few weeks ago and the ballpark price was beyond ridiculous.  The one down by brockton said it would be about 3 times the fiberglass price, I think he said about $.60 for 2x4 walls.  There are two types of the icynene open cell foam, a slow expanding and the regular.  They told me that if you take off some boards the foam will not affect the interior drywall, etc and they can get all the foam in fairly easily.  The other foam company out in central ma is suppose to have reasonable prices too.  The salem outfit gave me a general number of $2.50 per sq foot vs. the brockton number of $.60.



    Edited 4/8/2005 6:52 pm ET by DDay

    1. User avater
      CloudHidden | Apr 09, 2005 04:07am | #2

      I'm guessing one gave you per sq ft with an assumption of the thickness, while the other was per bd ft, so that the prices would end up similar. Could be wrong, but pricing isn't that different, and we're seeing maybe 75 cents/bf for polyurethane or more as they screw with the blowing agents and the cost of oil rises. 3 times fg? Yeah, that sounds about right. It is more, and it comes with benefits.

    2. User avater
      Taylor | Apr 10, 2005 05:03pm | #3

      I got quoted $4/sq ft for icynene. I dream of being quoted $2.50/sq ft....

    3. Grott | Apr 14, 2005 04:32pm | #7

      Hey guy's not trying to hijack the thread...but are you pricing square feet of foam or cubic feet (1 board foot)?  I was quoted similarly, and the numbers were way off for the walls(2x6) and similar for the roof(2x12)...that got me thinking.

      Just be sure your asking the right questions.  Then verify the answer's.

      Garett

      1. User avater
        DDay | Apr 14, 2005 04:54pm | #9

        I asked each for the price per sq ft for 2x4 walls.  I explained to each that all the framing would be easy to access and typical, nothing odd.  The company in Salem that gave me the $2.50 number is just nuts.  But I guess since they are very busy, they have clients that are just as crazy.

        1. Grott | Apr 14, 2005 06:11pm | #10

          Crazy is as Crazy does...customers or otherwise. 

          Keep shopping.

  2. csnow | Apr 11, 2005 08:32pm | #4

    "I'm probably going to do the shingles on my own. What I'd like to do is use some type of sprayed foam which could be sprayed in the wall cavity as the reshingling is done (wood planks on the outside). Remove planks on each stud bay (2X4 walls) and insulate from the outside. After the new shingles are on they will be stained not painted."

    The isues with foam for your job are cost and scheduling.

    Foam is expensive.  Foam is even more expensive if they have to come by multiple times, because there is a lot of fixed overhead for the installers every time they start a job. 

    This may not be very compatible with a DIY schedule, where you may want to do one section at a time.  Consider densepack cellulose.  You can install it yourself, and the minumums for free blower rental are pretty low.  Cheaper, with a good cost/benefit ratio.

    If you have some tricky odd sized cavities (as most old houses do) that will not work well for cellulose, what you can do is cut rigid foam blocks to size, and foam them in place.  You can use can foam, though a foam gun is a good investment if you are doing a whole house.

    1. Ribs | Apr 11, 2005 08:53pm | #5

      Thanks for your responses. Boy you hit that one on the head. Your suggestions sound a bit more reasonable. The two prices I've gotten on the sprayed foam have been near $4200. That doesn't even take into consideration if they charge more for each visit (one said probably not which surprised me). Translation these people are insane. I'd originally heard about 3 times the cost of fiberglass (which last time I looked was about 30 SF) for 3 1/2 inches. so about $660 for a 2200 SF house. There price is more like 7 times as expensive. Even if it managed to cut my fuel bills in half (I doubt that will happen) it would still take about 6-8 years to pay for itself. (so cut by 1/4 12-16 years)I know for this application I can't use fiberglass but still. I was thinking of the blown cellulose and as you said better for DIY applications. Not sure how you get it densepacked though. I also thought your idea of blocks was interesting but what is a foam gun, never heard of it before. Not sure when or if sprayed foam will ever be available to the DIY market I guess that is wishful thinking for now.

      1. csnow | Apr 11, 2005 09:18pm | #6

        "Not sure how you get it densepacked though."

        http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00021.asp

         "I also thought your idea of blocks was interesting but what is a foam gun, never heard of it before."

        View Image

        http://www.energyfederation.org/consumer/default.php/cPath/21_1177_439

        "Not sure when or if sprayed foam will ever be available to the DIY market I guess that is wishful thinking for now."

        Available, but not cheap.  Cheaper than calling back the truck multiple times though:

        http://www.fomofoam.com/

         

        1. Faulted1 | Apr 16, 2005 08:40pm | #13

          Is that the same gun Or how is that different than this setup?

          http://www.abccatalog.com/store/listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=261

           

          1. csnow | Apr 17, 2005 03:36am | #14

            Probably ok, though I would not buy that one myself because it lacks the needle tips the Pageris comes with.  Perhaps you can get just the tips elsewhere.

            Another source to consider is http://www.sheltersupply.com

      2. Grott | Apr 14, 2005 04:43pm | #8

        Ribs,

        You really should do a heat loss calculation fro the whole house.  Do it with and w/o the new insulation.  That will get you a good idea of what you can expect for heat savings.

        There are a few free calculators on line.  I have one from slant-fin.  If you want to e-mail me I could run the number for you too. 

        The numbers/information needed; sq foot exterior walls, the sq/ft windows, type of glass, sq/ft doors, existing wall construction including insulation, sq/ft ceiling and insulation type, sq/ft floor and insulation, craw/basement/slab.

        Location and type of heating unit would be nice but is not necessary.

        Garett

  3. BHRS | Apr 14, 2005 06:39pm | #11

    Try these two sites for info on do it yourself insulation. 

    for foam http://www.fomofoam.com/

     

    for cells http://cocooninsulation.com/

     

    Good luck on your project and let usa know how it turns out.

    1. bvgckg | Apr 14, 2005 09:06pm | #12

      I checked out the foamofoam web site and the "do-it-yourself" product looks interesting.  Does anyone have any direct experience with this product and/or company that they could share with the board?

      1. DgH | May 04, 2005 07:43am | #15

        I think the stuff is too expensive for me. I can have it installed for less (with only one trip).I did call up the company and talk with them about their product though. They treat you well and the people I talked to knew what they were talking about and gave me advice that made sense even when it indicated that maybe I should consider some other options...Last year I didn't know what any of this stuff meant.

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