Ok, Settle an argument here,
Today I got into a heated discussion with another guy regarding the “proper” or “established” method of orienting a newell post on a 45 degree turn of a balcony. (horizontal run ) This is a situation with very basic post – to – post handrails where the balcony has a 45 degree turn.
One of us said that the newell should be kept square with one of the runs, thus requiring you to cut one handrail at 90 degrees, and the other at 45 degrees.
The other insisted that it should be placed parallel with the angle, so that you are basically cutting both handrails at 22-1/2 degrees.
We argued this, and his arguement was compelling enough that , quite frankly, I began to doubt my tried and true technique… Questioning my very credentials as a carpenter.
So, who’s right? which method is “correct” ?
Replies
On some jobs, I've started using two newels on a 45 degree corner. One newel on each side of the corner(and square to the run), about 4-6 inches back from the corner. I then join the posts with two short pieces of handrail mitered at 22 1/2 deg. Room to get maybe two or three spindles in between the posts. Looks pretty cool, IMHO.
At any rate, it eliminates the argument you were having!
Mike
You got credentials? Very credentials, even. That's downright credent of you.
OK...one post only, right? One 45 degree turn? I'd go with 22 1/2 degrees just so the rail angles are symmetrical. No other reason.
My votes with Hudson. Cutting at 45, will the handrail die in evenly? A 3 1/2" rail cut at 45 is almost 5". Is the post that wide?
If you put the post square on one end, then the 45 cut on the handrail usually has a mating surface longer than the width of the post block.
If you are in the habit of dropping your posts down thru the landing tread, and you try to put it center it on the corner, you'll most likely end up pushing it back so far that it is actually recessed on the Landing tread.
You can combat that by pushing the rail out towards the edge of the landing tread as far as you can.
Two posts can be busy but it works.
A simple answer is to center it on the corner and use bigger posts (Wider).
If i had ever installed a post on the square in that situation, The stair shop that threw me the job would have made me go back and fix it.
My first impulse it to rip wedges off of two newells and glue them together, so each rail gets a 90.
Time for a round newell.
every court needs a jester
Rip out the angled staircase. The BI will never approve it anyway.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
It doesn't sound like this problem really has an "established" solution.
You offer two possibilities:
(1) 90-degree cut on one side of the newel, with a 45-degree cut on the other
(2) 22-1/2 degree cuts on both sides (by rotating the newel)
What about a third option: keep the newel square to the runs (like in case (1)), but add a very short piece of handrail to the 45-degree side to "transition" to the bend at the balcony. The "transition" piece would butt @ 90 degrees into the newel, and have a 22-1/2-degree miter into the next main rail section (the one at 45-degrees in plan view).
Bingo!
One could re-orient the newel so both handrails have equal mitres .
There are a lot of ways to skin this cat.
Edited 3/22/2007 6:23 pm by dovetail97128
Ha!
Everyone is wrong.
Didn't you know there are special newels made for this exact purpose?
Well, I suggested splicing two newells together.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Nope, I never heard of such a post.
Can you post a link or give a manufacturers name?
Well, since there was no clear-cut "This is how you're always s'posed to do it" concensus arrived at on this topic, I have decided to keep on doing it as I always have.
Orienting the newell parallel with the angle itself so that you are cutting a 22-1/2 degree angle on both sections of rail. My own feeling is that this looks the most uniform, and therefore more visually appealing.
It's nice to see that the over all feeling in this forum seems to be that there are many ways to do any one task, some being just as "correct" as others, and what is the right way to do something is actually quite subjective." If I were a carpenter"
Mark,
I worked for a custom stair builder years ago, but if memory serves me, the proper method would be as Ragnar17 suggested, option #3, newel face parallel to lower treads and landing rail is made with a 45 degree miter and "transition piece" attached so railing dies into post at 90 degrees, in other words the railing is parallel with the direction of travel all along the staircase and along the landing. Hope this makes sense to you, again Ragnar17's #3 option is the right one , no doubt. (IMHO)
Geoff
Ragnar17's #3 option is the right one , no doubt. (IMHO)
No doubt about that! :)
I think the most elegant solution would be to have the handrail curve into a 45-degree turn (in plan view). But the transition piece is a simpler approximation.
While we're on the subject of newels, maybe some of you guys can help me out.
In the past, I've always used box newels, and I've simply placed 4x4 structural cores to provide the necessary framing strength. On my current project, however, I'm trying to put in a 3-1/2" turned newel, so obviously I need to use a different approach.
The stairs call for an open stringer, and the finish floor is strip oak (only about 5/16" or so thick). There's a little bit of flexibility in where I place the starting newel. None of the finish treads/risers or finish trim have been installed yet. There's only the sub treads and sub risers.
What options do I have to ensure that I really get this newel secured tightly so it doesn't wobble around?
Thanks in advance for any words of wisdom!
If you can get your hands on a current L J Smith catalog, go to page 84, there are several different fasteners there. I have had the most experience with the "L J 3008, L J 3019, and L J 3005. all three of these work pretty well depending upon the application. If you can't get ahold of a catalog, just go to http://www.ljsmith.net and look at "installation hardware and tools" in their "products" section.
Or did you mean that the base of the post is turned as well and not square?
HMMMMM.... seems to me that this would be a perfect place to use just the lag screw from the L J 3008 , epoxy the end with the machine threads into the base and "screw" the post down onto it.
Over the years I have come up with some awfully crafty ways of anchoring many different styles of newell in many different and unusual situations. If I mis-understood, and none of these are applicable let me know some more details and we'll see if we can come up with something that'll work." If I were a carpenter"
Mark,
Thanks for the help. I went to the LJ Smith link and found this page: http://www.ljsmith.net/pdfs/12Tools_Hardware.pdf
The only hardware that I've used before is LJ 3006 (mounting plate), but I'm familiar with the types you've used: LJ 3005 (key lock), LJ 3008 (lag bolt), and LJ 3019 (angle brackets).
In my situation, the newel will NOT be rotated out of 90 degrees or anything like that. It's a simple straight run. My objective is to get the post as solid as is practically feasible. For this reason, I'd be willing to consider minor design changes at this point if it meant a significantly sturdier newel.
With that said, the lag bolt option looks like a good possibility, since I don't think we'll be installing any trim around the base of the newel to hide hardware (as the angle bracket or mounting plate options would necessitate).
In your experience, do you just put in a single lag (as opposed to two)?
Thanks again,
Ragnar
Geoffrey, (and Ragnar)...
You mis-read my initial post. The situation I am describing is on a balcony rail, on a horizontal run (on it's way over to the stairs...) where there is a 45 degree angle on the balcony.
After many failed attempts on this board I have completely given up on ever obtaining the ability to post photos, or I would have done that to begin with. That would have been the smart thing to do....
Anyway... Thank you for the input, I certainly do appreciate learning from people with more, or even just different experience. :-)
Mark" If I were a carpenter"
You mis-read my initial post. The situation I am describing is on a balcony rail, on a horizontal run (on it's way over to the stairs...) where there is a 45 degree angle on the balcony.
Maybe you mis-read my post. ;) What I'm hearing is that you have a 45-degree turn in the ballustrade in PLAN (i.e. plan view). That is, the handrail stays horizontal, but must execute a 45-degree turn to the left or right. Is this accurate?
Yes sir! You are correct! I am the one who got confuzzzed there. When I was reading Geoffrey's post, I read "lower treads" and "landing rail", suddenly I was mentally on my way down the stairs... Anyway, it all makes sense to me now.
Regarding the lag screw, I've never tried more than one. I wonder if you might not start to weaken the post itself too much by trying to do two? Maybe not. What is the subfloor where you are mounting it? wood? concrete? I know one guy who always squirts epoxy into the hole before threading the lag down into it for "extra holding power". If I'm working on concrete, that's exactly how I secure the lag. You just have to wait 'til the next day before you can attach the newell.
Sorry 'bout the mis-understanding. :-)
" If I were a carpenter"
Mark,
I'm working on a wooden floor, so there won't be any need for concrete fastening techniques.
I should be able to position the newel over the doubled joists that define the stair opening. So my thought is to get the lag screw into the center of one of those two joists.
Have you had good experiences with this approach? Specifically: has the newel ended up being good and tight (no wobbles)?
I agree with you regarding the best solution for joining the rails to post on a 45 degree angle landing. It's more work to use curved fittings to the post but the look is the most elegant.
Many times when faced with a different situation, I would go with what would look the best. I'm a big fan of symmetry, so setting the post equal to the angle makes sense.
I've had a lot of success with using a pair of 5/16 rail bolts [hanger bolts] to anchor posts to the floor, as long as you can locate the framing it usually works pretty well. I've found them as long as 5" for difficult situations. Often I have had to angle the bolts to get good anchoring into the framing then bend the exposed part vertical to go into the post . The hole setup in the post is the same as for connecting rail parts to rails. I've even anchored to concrete by setting bolts and shields with epoxy. 5 minute epoxy is amazing stuff.
Often I have had to angle the bolts to get good anchoring into the framing then bend the exposed part vertical to go into the post .
That's a good trick to keep in mind, Bruce. Hopefully I'll be able to just drill dead into the framing, but it's nice to know a little tweaking can be done after the fact.
Yes, I have had very good luck doing it that way. Very solid end result. The only way I've ever got them more solid than that was back in the day, when we used to set the newell during the framing stage and run it down into the framing with all sorts of lags and glue 'n stuff.
Just beware that if you don't pilot drill the hole effectively, it may split the joist. Of course you know that you are going to hit 3 or 4 nails when you are attempting to drill that pilot hole. Also, if you wind up with the lag going between the joists it may work itself loose... (again, the epoxy thing would save you in this instance.)" If I were a carpenter"
I was kidding.
I don't know a down-easing from a duck-neck., or is it called a chicken-back?
I know there is a fitting that's named after a piece of poultry.
Didn't you know there are special newels made for this exact purpose?
There are a ton of "special" stair rail parts. Problem is that unless you're buying the parts, most times the shop or builder won't spend the few extra dollars.
I still don't understand why you can't rip two posts in half and glue the halves together to get a "special" post. Wouldn't work for all styles, but should work for quite a few. If the saw blade isn't too thick you wouldn't even have any waste -- could make two posts out of two posts.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin