Stair stringers and Bigfoot Head Cutter
vintage1
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Anyone ever try to cut stair stringers with a head cutter?
I was thinking that if you had 4 stringers all tightly secured together you would be able to cut them all at once. You could cut right up to the line of your pattern, no need to overcut (as with a circ. saw) and no need to clean up a cut with a jig saw either.
One pass and your done!
One other advantage is that they would all be exactly the same.
Disadvantages-
The saw might wander and could screw up all of your stringers.
Safety- always the possibility of kick-back.
Might need a template of some sort to guide the saw. Making the template might be more time/effort than you save by using this method.
Good idea, and a time saver???
or
Stupid idea-dangerous- and not worth the effort???
Replies
I think tim uhler uses one of them, and swears by it. matt swanger too? I think. Consider this a bump.
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Huck,
Thanks for posting the pics.
I have the head cutter and have used it to cut TJI roof rafters. For that app. it works really well.
I'm curious if one could accurately cut the tread and riser cuts for stair stringers.
I could always try it myself first, just thought I would see if anyone else had ever done it before I set up a few test pieces.
Thanks
If it cuts rafters accurately, why wouldn't it cut stringers accurately? I don't have one, so I don't know - but I know the guys that use it swear by its accuracy, if handled carefully.
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edited to add: guess you'll have to be the alpha dog on this one, and report back to us on how it went! And remember: we want pics!
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Edited 7/18/2009 12:56 pm by Huck
I picture the stringers standing up, like the rafters in the picture, not laid flat, like they would be if you were cutting them individually with a skillsaw. Then, the only guide you would need would be a straight edge, like the 2x4 shown in the pics, which would be moved with each cut. I guess it would make more sense if you had a boatload of identical stringers. Probably not worth it for two or three?
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edited to add: for two, I would tack them together with an 8 or a 16, then set my saw depth a little deeper than 1 1/2". That way, as you cut one, it scores the other one, leaving a clear line to follow. And yeah, follow up with handsaw sawzall or jigsaw in the inside corners.
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Edited 7/18/2009 1:24 pm by Huck
I don't know Tim well enough to make a comment about his work, but stairs and chainsaw should not be used in the same sentence.
Tim does great work. He's a framer, not a finish carpenter. But he can build stairs too. Not sure what your point is - I don't know where Tim used stairs and chainsaw in the same sentence...but I know where you did!! Hahahaha
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Thought you might have been referring to this pic, sorry I've had to come in behind too many framers who thought they knew stairwork.
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Say it to his face!! Dare ya!! (btw, looks like he's doin' a pretty good job! the guy who did layout, however, made his rise/run ratio a little steep)
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Edited 7/18/2009 10:12 pm by Huck
I've only spoken to Tim once, I suspect that he is better than most of the framers I've met. However anyone who cuts stingers with a chainsaw should be required to trim them out as well.
However anyone who cuts stingers with a chainsaw should be required to trim them out as well.
FWIW, I will be framing the stairs and trimming them out. I'm not framing the house, but I do like to cut my own stairs to make sure I get all of the flooring thicknesses accounted for, and to make sure I get all the blocking where I want it for the trim.
I'm inferring from your comment that you don't think that the stringers would be very precise, and you could very well be right.
I wouldn't do it, if I thought the results would be sub-par. Just thinking about a way to speed up a process and utilize a tool already in my arsenal.
As Huck said, I might just have to be the one to try this out.
I for one want to see you do it. I'm thinking the most difficult part will be starting the cut over and over again into the edge of the stringer, without getting a bunch of chatter marks, and wandering at the start.
How about if you have them clamped together, stood on edge and set skill saw to the corresponding angle so you can run it along the edge of the stringers in essence setting a line to go by with the chainsaw, and protecting the front edge. you'd have to do one angle on the rise and then switch to the run angle, waste of time? Then set the boards flat and finish all the cuts with the chainsaw.
I think like most things the set-up takes time and it dosent seem like your gaining anything until you really time it and you will come out ahead.
I have a husky 435 that it says I can put a 18" (16" now) on, do you think that would be enough saw to try some of that with? Where does one get a headcutter?
Anyways go for it dude, be a pioneer, if you don't I may someday. If all the stringers are identical thats most of the battle anyways. How do you normally do it? Whew! long post, I like this topic, got the wheels turning.
I'm thinking the most difficult part will be starting the cut over and over again into the edge of the stringer, without getting a bunch of chatter marks, and wandering at the start.
This is what has me a little worried too. Not sure if it would be worth the trouble, but I am thinking about making a "V" type jig that would allow the head-cutter to ride along side, making the cuts.
You also make a valid point about the setup and experiment may take way more time than I would actually save doing this...
But you never know until you try.
As far as Husky saws, I am not too familiar, but I would think that a 16-18" bar saw would have enough power to go through 4- 2x12 douglas fir.
I have a Stihl 310 equipped with a 25" bar and the head-cutter. Goes through 16"TJI's like a hot knife through butter.
BTW, head-cutter is available from BigFootSaws.- Google them, you'll find their site.
How difficult will it be to get the height set right so as not to over cut? personally I can't see the benefit for three stringers, but will stay tuned to see how it went.
For me accuracy in the cutting of the stringers more than pays for itself in saved time during the fitting of the rest of the parts.Last year I saw Jed Dixon's presentation at the JLC show which I have found to be the fastest as well as the most accurate method I've ever seen. It was one of the moments when you say to yourself "Why didn't I think of that".Take your total height finish floor to finish floor and divide by number of risers on a CM. Enter that number as your rise, enter your run and hit the Dia button. Hit the + button, followed by the = buttons as many times as required. Method #1
At each displayed number make a tick mark where the corner of the framing square lands of the stringer stock with the stair-stops attached. Trace out on the framing square as you normally would. The CM will give you the angle for the cut by hitting the Pitch button. Set your chop saw to that angle and make the first set of cuts, subtract 90 from that and you have the angle for the second cut.Method #2
With a tri-square strike a line along the board where the framing square would land as if you were going to trace out the cut lines. Make two tic marks on the edge of the board using the same numbers from method #1. Make the first cut, slide board down to the point where you would make the second cut. Make a tic mark on the fence of the chopsaw stand. Make the cut, slide board down to the edge of cut lines up with tic mark on chopsaw stand, repeatWith method #2 you can cut out 3 stringers with a minimum of steps which will be very straight and square. Because the CM was used instead of sliding the square along there will be not cumulative error.I hope this will be of some help. If my explanation is unclear please ask questions. It is faster and easier to do than it is to explain
Mathewson,
As far as the layout, I use a CM calculator and my framing square to lay out the pattern. Typically, I lay one out...cut the top and bottom and test fit into the stairwell.
Once I am sure the stringer is correct, I cut it out and use it as a pattern for the remaining two. I use a circ. saw to the line and finish with a jig saw. Typ. 2x12 doug fir.
This method provides reasonably accurate stringers and I can install treads and risers from there.
This upcoming project, I will have 4 stringers and due to the length, I want to use LVL, so more cuts and greater weight.
From what I understand from your post, the layout would be similar and you use a mitre saw to make the cuts.
But...would you still finish with a jig saw (or other) and still cut each stringer individually?
The mitre saw adds a degree of accuracy for the cuts but I don't see the time savings- each stringer has to be moved twice...once for the rise cut... and once for the run cut. Either that or you are doing a lot of saw rotating.
I also question how easy it would be to slide a 16' LVL down my mitre saw setup (DeWalt stand and 12" slider).
I'm still open to trying it though, is there any addt'l info at JLC?
Thanks
The way you cut your stringers is the same as I used to. I'm probably not explaining things very well. I love using LVL's and only use 2x12's if I'm not given a choice. I used to have the same chopsaw stand you use and it will not work for this method- It is too short. you have to use a longer stand. So everything else may not matter for your job- I use the Sawhelper with the long wings, but a shopmade one with plywood would work just as well. . I have not seen anything listed on JLC explaining Jed's approach, but I haven't looked either. you place the material on the stand, make 1 line and 3 marks. Cut-N-slide, Cut-N-slide, Cut-N-slide, etc. Change the miter and Cut-N-slide, Cut-N-slide, going the other direction. Finish the cut with a jig saw or handsaw.For any additional stringers the only mark needed is the line made with the tri-square. use the edge of board as your starting point against the tic mark on the saw fence.The first stringer may take a few of minutes, making sure lay out is correct, etc. Which is the way you do it now, who wants to cut 4 and find out you miss measured something. But the rest can be done in about 2 minutes each.IMO a 4 stringer stair requires greater accuracy in the cutting of the stringers than a 3 stringer one does, and tracing from a master stringer introduces more problems. For me, I would lay out each one rather than trace. An additional couple of minutes here will save a lot of frustration later.
my ears were ringing lol, i use it for rafters and wouldnt do it any other way now. but stringers i use my 16" makita, all 2x12's clamped together and burn them out.
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Matt,
I remember seeing your photos with the big 16" saw. This was for a 2nd story garage addition- no??
As I recall, there was very little overcut required with that size of a blade. Perhaps you even cut to the line and finished them with another saw?
Actually, I think your project was one of the things that got me thinking about this. I don't own a big circ. saw, so I was trying to find a use for my head-cutter.
One- to save some time, and Two- to use a tool that I already own and is typically under-employed.
yup the second story project it was, there was some over cut but i sister my outside stringers with 2x12's, which would be the top two clamped, the bottom is the middle stringer with no overcut.
then Woods favorite carpenter
Keith,Is this video with Jed Dixon what you were talking about?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFCMmAUlkBACaught part of one of his presentations at JLC this year. Definitely want to sit in on a number of them next time round. He runs a great show.Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Steve,I've seen his show for the last 3 or 4 years and that is just how he presents it. He is a very nice guy, last year he spent about an hour with me talking about his method of making custom rail and fittings.Before last years show I had always drawn and then cut the stringers with a skilsaw, even though I was cutting the skirts on the chopsaw. When I saw him cut the stringer on the chopsaw as well I felt like hitting my forehead with the palm of my hand...
Try it out. And take pictures. I've never used the headcutter but it looks pretty awesome. I bet you'd be pretty accurate if you made a jig to guide things along.
Guys,
That picture that was posted of me and the chainsaw and stair stringers was just a joke. Off camera my cousin had a handful of dust. It took a couple of takes. I'll try and find one of the "takes". Oh and the rise run ratio was about a 7 1/2" riser and 10" tread. That is kind of standard around here for 9' walls. 104 5/8" studs + plates + joist & subfloor. I think it was 16 risers, but don't recall now.
About the Head Cutter, I have never used that to cut stringers. I could see maybe if I had like 4 or more identical stringers and clamped then flat, layed out the top stringer, and then built a quick guide (chunk of sheathing) that looked like an "L" that I could clamp and slide to each set, make both cuts, then slide down and repeat. There would not be any risk of kick back and with a chistel tooth chain the cuts would be very clean.
I normally use a Big Foot 10" to cut with 3 pcs clamped and just over cut the top one, pull it off, finish the cut on the next one, which will be barely over cut with that large a blade, and then on the last stringer just use a jigsaw to finish the cut. I use LedgerLok (FastenMaster) screws to fasten the stringer to any walls.
Also, when I layout stringers, I do not step them out with a rafter square, I layout the "points" by figuring the diagonal numbers and using the calc so there is no accumulated error. Then I put the buttons on the square and scratch the rise and run. I have cut a pitch block to mark out too and that workes well, you just have to cut the line on the pitch block to account for a thick framer's pencil :-)
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From Lot 30 Muirkirk
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I got the pictures and uploaded them, here they are http://picasaweb.google.com/TimothyUhler/Stairs?feat=directlinkhttp://www.pioneerbuildersonline.com
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From Lot 30 Muirkirk
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Its funny how I get in the middle of these things - I never said I cut stringers with a chainsaw, or that you did. I said you cut rafters with a bigfoot, and found it accurate. But people don't always pay attention, and wander off, attacking a straw man.
That was a funny picture, btw, didn't realize it was you. I guess distortion in the photo made the rise/run look steep to me. Not sure if this is why, but my computer has a wide screen, and images tend to get somewhat distorted on it. 7/11 is what I always aim for, when possible.
In California, even the finish carpenters use chain saws. Close enough to caulk - nail it! Heck, stairs here get wrapped with carpet, what's to trim anyway?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Huck,
The chainsaw gets a bad rap. I've posted pictures here before that show the 12-12 cut being dead on on 2x12 before. I had Big Foot make a larger Head Cutter for me because the stock version was just a little too small.
I was looking through pictures last night and man I'm getting nostalgic for the good times we've had framing. Things are slooow here. All my old framing crew is gone and almost every one who worked for us is gone. Its worked out that as we got slower, the guys found other work and we didn't have to let them go, but still.
Right now its just my brother and me and he's an office guy (very good in the office). We are framing a 1300sq ft living over garage because lumber is cheap and the lot is super cheap. We are trying to break into the entry level market.
We've probably had 10-15 near sales over the last 4 months. Either customs or purchasing the spec we built over the winter. We lost a bid on a custom job 2 weeks ago. Someone bid nearly 150k below us :-) I'll send you the plans.
Our bid was 535k or so, another very good custom builder in the area was 559k, and then there were two bids 430 and 410 (which is about our cost). I don't think that the 410 bid included sales tax, but I'm not sure.
That is the name of the game right now though.
But looking through the pictures, I can say that the last 6 years or so have been nothing but super fun and I've learned more than I could have ever imagined. Framing is just in my blood.
But this last spring I drywalled a house, and last week I was running base. So I'm picking up some new skills, which is never a bad thing.http://www.pioneerbuildersonline.com
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From Lot 30 Muirkirk
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Myself, and others like Blue, feel your pain. Like Blue, and you, I'm a framer at heart. Love big cut-up custom houses. But I haven't really framed for a living for years. Now I do a lot of different stuff, but mostly, whatever I can get! Very slow here too. Awhile back, when this all hit, I was supervising converting 26 apartments into townhomes. They were all sold, way before we finished. Then, something like 20 of the 26 fell out of escrow! We had no idea then how bad it would get. In fact, its still getting worse day by day here, no sign of improvement. Hang in there!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com