I am beginning a finished basement; first time using steel studs; exterior walls are insulated with rigid foam . Seem to recall seeing one done where the ceiling was sheetrocked, then the walls were framed. While this seems counter intuitive to me, was wondering if there was any benefit to doing this. Seems like running the electric and plumbing would be a PITA.
Replies
Unless everything that's above was roughed in to the proper locations below and all the blocking for wall securing was done.............
It would take care of firestopping around the perimeter.
I haven't and probably wouldn't if given the opportunity. If it was already there, then sure. Build down.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I'm a huge proponent of steel studs but I absolutely would not sheet rock the ceiling befor building the partitions. Electrical and plumbing would be pain, but more importantly you would end up with unnecessary but joints in the ceiling.
Get yourself a crimper for attatching studs to plate, and rent or borrow a hilti or some similar powder actuted fastening tool for the attaching base track to the concrete.
Do the rough openings for doors and windows with kiln dried studs for a good nailing backer for jambs and trim.
Once you go steel you won't go back! Steel starts and stays straight , almost no drywall pops.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Like cliffy said. Just remember to add blocking were you may want to hang something.
depending upon your inspection process and codes, most require fire stopping at the top of the wall between the foundation and the top plate. (unless frame wall is tight to foundation which I dont normally do as there are drain lines running around some and I'd rather have dead space there)
I cut rips of sheetrock and install around perimeter to outside edge of top plate, then install top plate below that rock.
When rocking the ceiling, but the rock at the top plate.
That takes care of firestopping and gives you drywall ceiling and steel stud walls.
That would also work well for firestop in bulkheads. One question, why would you have to this with steel studs? Or I guess a better question do you have to do this because you are using steel studs? I have to date only used steel for one basement. They are considerably more expensive here (Toronto) and it is so competative now that it's hard to work it into the price. Would you say that the labour saving would outweigh the cost in mat. I like that they can be cut to the same size, I like that there aren't pops. I like that you can set them in the track and they stay there. It took a little getting used to for the doors,I didn't install as much wood blocking as I should have, I guess when you are more familiar it becomes second nature.
prices are coming down with steel (commodities are down) but lumber is way down too so everything is devalued.
Re. firestopping, there is an arguement that there is no flamables with steel stud so dont need it but most codes require firestop at floor/ceiling wall transitions so it has to be there per most codes.
fire stopping is to prevent the stud space from acting like a chimney once it's drywalled. it really has nothing to do with flammability of material. if the basement is to be a separate apartment, then the ceiling and all common walls need to be firerated anyway. if the ceiling is drywalled first, then firestopping becomes a moot point. i say do the ceiling first, just make sure there's blocking for the ceiling track, and maske sure your wire and pipe are dropped in the right spot.
Edited 2/8/2009 1:12 pm ET by mytulpa
Re. firestopping basement.
If you are the one guy doing all the work, no problem, but if you have a framer, separate HVAC, Electric, and Plumbing contractors, then there is no feasible way to bring all the trades who need to be in ceiling, then rock the ceiling, then frame the walls (Oh, by the way, will the framer need to come build bulkheads prior to rocking the ceiling so the whole ceiling can be rocked)
Once walls framed bring back all the necessary trades to drop into the walls, and then rock the walls.
For one, you would need multiple rough inspections for electric, probably plumbing, maybe insulation, and framing.
For two, everyone would think you did not know how to effeciently run the job.
If there are no inspections where you are and you do all the work, have at it but i would still run sheetrock strips around the perimeter up to the outside edge of the track for firestop and run the job so that each trade visits for rough in one time.
Although it would be fun to drywall the ceiling with out a care for being to exact. I don't think it would be fun enough for me to look past the extra inspections. I suppose you might be a little better of a firestop b/c you'd more than likely run the sheets further than the wall line.
Rip down some 1/2 inch plywoodand to 3 inches, fasten it to the bottom track and studs for attaching your baseboard.
Wier/Barlow
That is a very good suggestion. So do people generally just crimp the studs in place, or is it better to use those little screws?
Use the screws. some framers only screw one side, which in your case would be okay but in my opion it is better to screw both sides. Although 15 and 16 gauge nails will penertrate 25 gauge framing, I like to double up the the jacks and headers with 2x4's for nailing off the doors."Shawdow boxing the appoclipse and wandering the land"
Wier/BarlowEdited 2/8/2009 11:55 am ET by dedhed6b
Edited 2/8/2009 11:56 am ET by dedhed6b
Also, you can use 20 gauge 1 5/8" studs if space is a concern. With 2" of foam on the basement walls and the 1 5/8" studs in front of the foam you use only a little more than 3 1/2" of space. Leave a little space between the studs and foam and you can run your electrical behind the studs without having to use the special grommets for running wire through steel studs.
Billy
I've done both. Now I ussually double crimp both sides, screw door and window openings. Works well for me.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Being a commercial contractor, metal studs is about the only method we use. (I'm not sure I remember how to toe-nail anymore)
A few thoughts:
You can easily carry two bundles of studs into a basement (20 pcs) That might be a stretch with wood.
I find framing with metal is about twice as fast a wood. However some of the special practices required such as plumbing, wiring methods and blocking may add some time especially when those trades are not accustom to working with metal framing. Our electrician gets all weird if he has to drill a hole in a piece of wood.
The studs need to be mechanically fastened to the track. Some inspectors don't recognize crimping as a mechanical fastener. Non of our metal framing contractors crimp studs any more.
I would consider using 20 gauge, 1-5/8" studs around the perimeter.
Hanging the ceiling then framing to it creates some difficulties. In a single family dwelling, your usually draft-stopping and not fire stopping. Consider cutting rips of drywall and attaching it to the underside of the joist just around the perimeter. Cut it to stop at the outside of the top track. When it comes time to hang the rest of the ceiling, your butting the sheets to the rip under the top track. Check with your building official, most consider the cavity draft-stopped when there is non-combustible insulation (fiberglass) is installed. Mineral wool is an approved draft stop material in most locations.
We don't usually use wood around door openings. But we will use construction adhesive and 20 gauge studs and use finish nailers to shoot the trim into the metal stud. Every other nail get shot in on opposing angles. We'll use trim screws to attached jambs to the studs. We do wood block everything when we're using stain grade millwork.
We always use double studs around openings.
Note that a "standard" metal stud is 1/8" wider than a wood stud. pre-hung door jambs don't work well (the jambs are only 4 1/2") however prehung split frames can be spread open to fit the wider wall thickness.
If you don't want to shoot the base directly to the metal stud. You can rip a piece of plywood about 3/4" less than the height of the base and attach it to the face of the stud. The rock then sits on top of the plywood rip. Much faster and easier than cutting individual blocks to go between the studs.
If your using 5/8" rock, consider using 20 gauge instead of 25. The screws strip out of the stud and the heads don't countersink into the rock well, especially around the tapered edge of the rock.
Just like wood, metal framing has it's place. Once you get comfortable with the methods, you may find you won't go back to wood for this type of work.
Your post has lots of great points. I use steel for residential, primarily because it is straight. I started with my own house in 95 and kept up with it. Only use wood when tieing into existing. Ontario building code is fine with crimping non loadbearing partitions. I think our door jamb material is usually 4 9/16 so not a problem with steel. My exterior walls that hold up the roof are 2 X4 wood. I then leave a 2.5 or 3.5 gap and put a second steel stud wall inside of that. Fill up everything with fibreglass. No thermal bridging and a nice warm house.
I cover the underside of the trusses with resilient channel before I frame the inside walls. If anything needs to go where resilient isn't, I add it. This seems to deal with truss uplift well.
I have used backed the baseboard with plywood but fine a little pl premium is just as good and less trouble.
Have a good day
Cliffy
1) do you use drywall adhesive on the steel studs? For wood it reduces the number of fasteners needed + prevents nailpops.2) how do you hang/attach fiberglass batts with metal studs? I am using rigid foam attached to the block wall, then framing, and was planning to use glass batts between studs. Attach at the top (floor joists )then just hang down?3) basment is dry- house is~50 years old. Underslab drainage and a sump that only pumps water that comes in through the walk up stairs drain. Would it be prudent to put stick on membrane on the bottom track before attaching it to the concrete? I've always used PT wood for the bottom plate on concrete, even if the basement was "dry".The last few loads od wood studs I had delivered looked like they gave me the cull pile - I don't order enough to get prefered treatment. That is why I am trying steel... thanks
how do you hang/attach fiberglass batts with metal studs? I am using rigid foam attached to the block wall...
That is a perfect application for metal z framing. The foam and the z-metal go in as a unit, anf the GWB screws to that
http://www.dietrichindustries.com/products/default.asp?p=installationvideo
( go to products, then Z-furring)
Edited 2/10/2009 9:32 pm ET by McMark
Edited 2/10/2009 9:38 pm ET by McMark
From a good metal stud/drywall supply you should find full 16 or 24'' wide batts. Should friction fit between the metal. 8' wall sees little or no sag.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
What thickness of foam are you using on the block walls? Perhaps it would not be necessary to use fiberglass in addition to the foam.
I used 2" foam in one basement, and left the stud cavities empty.
Another suggestion: I took a trex-type deck board, ripped it in half, routered grooves crossways every foot or so about a 1/4" deep, and put that right on the floor under the bottom track. Then, just tapcon screwed the whole thing to the floor. The grooves should allow any water that might be between the foundation and the stud wall to escape at the bottom of the wall.
Also, someone else had suggested when using narrow studs to shoot a spot of spray foam insulation between the stud and the foam insulation on the foundation about the middle of the stud to give the stud more stiffness. It will make it easier to run drywall screws in.
When screwing the drywall, start at either the top or the bottom, and work your way to the other end of the stud. That will help keep the stud from twisting, especially if you started in the middle of the stud.
One problem I have with steel studs is the screws stand proud of the steel, and sometimes make the drywall break, especially at the corners.
Hope some of these suggestions help.
Bryan"Objects in mirror appear closer than they are."
Klakamp Construction, Findlay, Ohio - just south of the Glass City
I think that was me who used the Trex under the bottom track (good idea to cut drain channels) and spots of foam between the steel studs and rigid foam on the walls. I'm glad it worked out well for you too.
Billy
From my little experience (redoing my house with steel), I'd recommend 20 ga studs for everything and anything. I've got 10' foot ceilings, so 25 ga freestanding studs feel a little wimpy at that length, and the upcharge to 20ga is minimal. For 1 5/8 studs, I'd definitely go 20ga. For screwing, I would do both sides, but you can use a long bit and simply screw the rear side in from the front (since you've got foam, the screw point will simply bit into the foam a little). If you're screwing, see if you can get yourself to a drywall store to get screws something like this: http://www.drillspot.com/products/449249/Caddy_SMS8_Screw I'm using sharp point pan heads that are okay, but I've been using mod-truss screws in some locations because of the flatter head. Beware though, I think drill points don't work as well as sharp points on studs, they tend to skid off the stud. I don't know how many studs you have to cut for the basement, but if you've got any significant number, I highly recommend picking up a channel shear from Malco. It makes great cuts and makes no noise. It hates 1 5/8" studs though, and Malco isn't sure why, but they've been great about sending me a new blade and die to try. Z
As stated, not sure fiberglass will add much. For the cost of the fiberglass, I'd just add an extra inch to the foam. Less tedius/messy.I went with 3" of EPS on our old (1927) VERY cold basement (Minnesota).After finishing the basement and adding a gas insert to the fireplace as the lone heat source, it actually gets TOO warm down there if the fireplace is left on for any amount of time. Even the bare slab floor remains comfy.Code here dictated a break between the sole plate. I think it helps with moisture migrating, but is mainly to keep the metal warmer to prevent condensation at that point. I used 1/4" XPS and then power-actuated the steel channel through it. Worked fine. For places where I used wood (I framed the door openings in wood) I used weathershield (that rubber stuff used around windows).Someone in here mentioned the 'squirt of foam behind studs' to stiffen the wall trick. I didn't use foam, but used scraps of the XPS as 'shims' between the studs and foam sheets. It definitely stiffened up the walls.As for blocking the back for trim, I ended up using the pre-finished XPS foam trim. The main reason was it's an old basement, so I was trying to keep it fairly moisture proof. I was originally going to use glue to attach it, but per a suggestion here I found out that brads in the pneumatic hammer shot at an angle were more than enough to 'pin' it against the sheetrock. Might not work for wood, but it worked great for the foam trim.
I don't use adhesive on metal studs. Metal studs are dimensionally stable so you will find that screw pops are almost eliminated.
When I nsulate a steel stud wall I order insulation manufactured to fit. Any well stocked lumberyard carries it. It is a full 16 inches wide. If you use the foam first, thats great, thermal break.
Our code calls for a pt plate or isolation between wood and concrete but with steel track I just Hilti it down about every 2 feet with a 1 1/8 hilti nail. No need for any membrane. The steel track does not absorb moisture.
Your comment about the cull pile is right on. When you install the steel, install it staight, plumb and it will stay that way forever.
Have a good day
Cliffy
I finished our basement in steel. SO much easier to haul stuff down into a basement.In hindsight, I would have invested in crimper. The screws work, but are tedious and can be a pain when trying to screw the back side.One trick I figured out halfway through was to double up the studs at each Sheetrock seem. It's a minimal cost for the extra studs and made it so much easier than trying to screw two edges into the same stud.