If we complain enough….will it change?
If I refuse to participate in this forum’s purpose until they fix it….will they?
Am I wasting my time?
Are we all wasting our time?
I want to know once and for all from the powers that be if I am wasting my time hoping for the return of the best forum online.
Don’t tease me or lead me on……….have the balls to tell me the truth.
Andy?………..Mark?………….
It’s time to stop hoping we’ll learn to LOVE this crap.
We don’t.
So what is the future?
It’s time to pay the piper.
Tell it like it is…………….
Ed.
Replies
Oh, thank goodness Ed. This being Easter, I feared that we would see only one new complaint thread today. Way to pull it together, big guy.
Helen
Well, you're quite welcome Helen.
I'm sorry to step on your bunny.
If you're so sensitive about Easter and all........why the heck are you logging on breaktime during such a Holy Time?
So you're a builder, sub-contractor, carpenter, plumber...............?
Maybe you're just some homeowner who likes to hang with the big boys?
Sorry to ruin your day big gal.
I'm also sorry if my attitude offends anyone. I've got years under my belt trying to add to the validity of this forum. I take offense when someone comes in and messes up a good thing. I'm not alone..........check out the petition.
Ed.
Hi Ed, pleased to meet you.
Let's see how ruined my day is. How tall are you? What's your waist size?Care to discuss construction or are you just here to add your tears to the other water under the bridge? I'd be happy to join you in the former.
Helen
Helen, no matter what you think, this forum will miss the likes of Ed and others. Unless something changes drastically, this will never be anything like the olden days.
I hope the new crowd can duplicate the old crowd in terms of content, not features.
If colored letters is so important, just get your construction info from kindygartners with crayons!
blue
Helen,
Ed has forgot more about construction then you and I would ever know. Him and people like him is the reason I started coming here. To learn and get advice from the pros. Not to mention They do it selflessly giving advice that has taken them years and a lot of hard knocks to learn. There comes a time when its best just to listen. When Ed and some of the other folks here talk about construction I listen to them. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Hey Ron, blue,
Thanks for the kind words. I turned 48 last week. Been a carpenter since I was 20. That's a lot of water under the bridge. I, like you, miss this place. I know I will miss it more as time goes on. Damn shame. Some people will never appreciate what we had.
Helen,
48 years old, 5'11, 38" waist.....mostly beer gut. I'm sorry to get off on the wrong foot with you. My appologies.
I'm not happy with the changes. Should I keep quiet about it? It's just not my way to sit back and accept things I don't like. You poked the bear......and I poked back. Sorry. I really mean no disrespect. I welcome anyone who wants to spend some time here and share wisdom. It's the new format that I dissagree with.........not you.
Again, my appologies,
Ed. Williams
Ed, I know you want to have a good time here. And of course everyone can complain. Believe me, I know how to complain. hehe It got me kicked off, but things got way better.
Just do something original. Hit on something specific. Make a list. Offer an alternative. You know, kind of what you do on the job when there's a bad day. You have to accept a leadership role. Your crew would flip if they saw you the way I've seen you last few days. And I think you can appreciate me for telling you that in a straight forward, honest way. Must admit, my natural propensity for sarcasm got the best of me earlier. I'd hug you, but it might be stretch for little old me. Get on that waist will you.
Helen
Helen,
If WebX was the Queen Mother, this is Charles. On a horse. Or not.
Bucking up,
Colleen
I miss webx too. As one of disenfranchised Mac users, I'm not real happy about hand coding every little thing. And I can't find anybody, not even myself. Or Ron. (and I don't want to let him sneak off)
I miss the threading bec these guys can escape from me too easily. I miss the simple search for the same reason and I also like to follow the best writers. I wish the discussions bet the dif mag boards were more closely linked.
But all that has been said a hundred times before. 5 new threads on it everyday is dumb. And these constant "I'm just about ready to leave" threats have worn thin and right through. We've got one guy who starts a thread: "I think I'm leaving". His next thread is: "I think I'm getting used to it, but I hate it." Pretty soon we'll see: "I think I have to take a leak." Or "I think I need somebody to explain my ass from my elbow."
Here's something new: I don't think a lot of these problems will ever be solved. And visiting Prospero website, I worry even more. They are committed to proprietary MS standards which are very anti-web, anti-free access. When they go to .net technology, I think Taunton is going to get a big shock.
Bot hay, wadda i no
Helen
Hi Helen.
What is '.net' technology?
Hi Dick. Not an expert, but I believe .net is the MS plan to rent their stuff to the whole world on a monthly basis. Want an operating system, browser, text processor? Keep paying.
Helen
I see... more of Bill's plans to take over the wired world. Got to appreciate a well planned and executed strategy. I'd hate to be computer dependent. Thanks
Hey bud! She is MY girl. Don't come round here pretending to ask questions about computers OK?
nigel, nigel, nigel......insecurity is the first sign of a deteriorating relationship.
But don't be jealous of me, I was cast aside long ago. Oh the pain of being unworthy.
Don't be that way Dick. You know I'd write you a lovely poem if I could. But rhyming your name would get me banned in a heartbeat. We're ever so proper in New England we are.
Helen
.net is microsoft's answer to J2EE, which is the Java solution to developing a platform where different applications can easily talk to each other and form bigger, more rubust systems. The idea is that this offers interoperability, scalability, and the migration of legacy systems.
J2EE is a nice solution, and, of course, it's not a Microsoft solution, so Micorosoft tries to cut-it off by coming out with their own solution.
The .net platform isn't really a bad idea, and Microsoft *IS* using some open standards that are the same as in J2EE (XML, Soap, etc...) However, there are some serious security issues, as always, with any MS product, not too mention that Microsoft likes to add their 'own' standards that end up competing with the open standards.
Microsoft .NET services, is built upon the .net platform. This is the more evil part of the equation. The idea is that web sites can start sharing information. For instance, microsoft would like every site on the internet to use Microsoft Passport as the log-in/security tool. In otherwords, the .NET services plan is to get a piece of every web site on the internet.
Any company devoted to MS only solutions isn't really doing their customers a great service. MS Solutions are often very good, but to say you only do MS solutions is a check against you, IMHO.
P.S. Helen, must you yell in large purple type?
It was also a less-than-subtle poke in IBM's eye with their Net. product campaign.
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Thanks Darrel, that was very interesting to me and a great anti-whining statement in general.Do you think Taunton knew they were buying a platform specific/browser specific product? Did Prospero dupe them in the fine print? Or do you think they care?
About my font face:
1. It's not yelling, it's purring.
2. I do it bec I can.
3. I'm lost in Prospero and it helps me find myself in the discussions.
4. If more people used a color, or a signature tag, we could all navigate better.
5. I see in color, work in color, fish in color, dream in color, live in color.
6. B/W is old, dead, boring.
7. Purple is pretty.
And how about you? I'd like to see more of what you write, and figure out how you got so smart. But how am I going to do that? Please start using a consistent text tag or sig file so I can spy on you.
Helen
Helen:
Imagine reading the newspaper if every story was set in a different color, style, and weight of type. It'd give you a headache. There'd be no consistency, no heirarchy, it's be ugly.
If more people used color, it WOULDN'T be easier to navigate. Trust me on that. It'd be a mess.
As to whether or not Taunton knew if they were getting MS technology, I dunno. They probably didn't care. They just wanted a system that was reliable and I'm sure the sales guy at Prospero told them it was reliable.
Unfortunately, most people in charge of purchasing web technologies and solutions in companies aren't really qualified to determine if what they are purchasing is right for them. This means that a lot of companies end up getting duped into half-baked solutions. For instance, look at poor Andy...he'd doing an amazing job moderating these boards, but I'm sure he wasn't hired to do this. He's doing what he can with what he has, but Taunton should perhaps have hired a dedicated web community expert to handle the decisions regarding the discussion forum systems.
Taunton wasn't too happy with the stability of their WebX discussion boards. Probably because whoever made the decision didn't have the necessary data to really determine if it was a stable product. Prospero probably had the data to show stability, but the purchaser probably didn't have the necessary data to see if the product was USABLE.
BTW, speaking of stability, I received this nice little error a few minutes ago:
=======================
error '80004005'
Unspecified error
C:PROSPEROASPN..includeincMember.asp, line 180
========================
Good 'ol microsoft and their unspecified errors...
For the record Darrel, I wasn't consulted. Had I been, I'd probably have suggested hand-written letters.
<<G>>Andy Engel, Forum moderator
LOL
Ihopoe everyones satisfied with the new ability to add this font
This site still s u k s Helen! I'll leave it to you to make it better than it was.
Although, after going through the intialization dates, Taunton employees were enabled to use the new system at least 4-6 weeks ahead of your customers. n'est ce pas ? .
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
That's true Phill, but the platform had already been selected by those beyond Mark and I. And, you know, I'm actually paid to make a magazine, not to diddle around on Breaktime, so I didn't invest a lot of time thinking about the new forum. Once I realized that I could navigate it, I figured that pretty much anybody could.Andy Engel, Forum moderator
Imagine reading the newspaper if every story was set in a different color, style, and weight of type. It'd give you a headache. There'd be no consistency, no heirarchy, it's be ugly.
I've got you now. You see, sometimes I design packaging. Sooo, how would you like to go into a grocery store and have every product come in the same box with same "color, style, and weight of type." Might double or triple your shopping time. *That* would be ugly. Same here at breaktime. If you were to post in a dashing RGB #309090 bold, I could pick your posts out in a flash. That's fun for me. See how Andy has his sig file in "purple"? It's bec we're friends and you find him right away. I've been meaning to tell him to bold the text too, so the color would come up sharper.
Forum moderatorForum moderator
Darell, just to let you know I took you seriously, I took a look at BT in IE. Yikes, my #3 text is huge. When I post in #2, it's so small on iCab, OmniWeb, and NS that I can bearly read it. So I'm going to post smaller and magnify here. Thanks for the heads up.
Now you take me seriously and do a sig file. And let me know if you ever have a question on architectural woodworking. Maybe I won't know the answer, but it's always fun chatting.
Helen
Oh, BTW, Helen, I'm not terribly smart. That's why I am here. I know enough about architecture and construction to be dangerous, but not nearly enough to comfortably say I know what I am doing.
My day job is as a web developer, so I do have a bit of expertise in that area (relatively speaking) at least in terms of usability issue online.
BTW, anyone intersted in construction, architecture, OR web developement should read "How Buildings Learn". Perhaps one of the best books ever written on the topic of design and usability in general.
Just saw this thread. Yes, yes, yes, to "How Buildings Learn" - possibly one of the most important books on sustainability ever, and right up there with "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" as an exercise in critical thinking.
Nicely phrased Helen. The steel fist is so much softer when encased in the velvet glove.
"For the record Darrel, I wasn't consulted."
Right. That was sort of my point. You were probably the most qualified to make a decision on usability as you are the person actually involved with the community. Yet, you weren't consulted.
Worse, you get to take the heat for the decision because you're the Taunton voice in the forums. ;o)
Sadly, this is an all-too-common occurence in companies.
The "How Buildings Learn" book draws that same conclusion in architecture. It talks about how a lot of buildings are built based on a variety of decisions, but tend to ALWAYS omit the single most important decision...is it going to be a usable building for the tenants?
What steel fist?
Not with my fingers, thumb or wrist!
When your name is Dick,
You can't be quick,
To put kidders on your hate list.
Be nice. If I was looking for trouble, you'd know it. K?
Helen
Thanks for that Helen, I'd reply in kind if I was capable.
I am nice..............................................mostly.
Ooh...a fellow Omniweb user...can't argue with that! ;o)
However...the packaging comparison is not fair. Packaging is all about shelf presence. People don't read packaging, they scan the aisles looking for their recognizable brand. Newspapers, on the other hand, like discussion forums ARE read as text, so consistency is important.
Yes, being able to somehow mark your own posts as yours is nice and makes for easy scanning. Many popular discussion forum systems allow for the use of Avatars (pictures) that appear with your name. They don't mess with the text, but still offer a way for each person to show off their 'flair' (an Office Space reference there...)
Maybe I could learn to do this.
A quick-witted poetess wrote
Rhyming lines with which giants she smote
Though sharp she can be
The secret, you see,
Is to not let her get hold of your goat
Edited 4/5/2002 2:37:57 PM ET by Dick
The type size, style, and color that Helen uses here is distracting and hard to read (no offense intended, Helen, I like your actual writing style). IMHO the body of the posts' text should be uniform across the board. I beleive that only the signature/logo and attatchments should have the options of color and style.
Ken Hill
I agree 100%, except for " I like your actual writing style".
It is so hard for me to read that I just automatically skip it.
Ken,
on this side of the screen, my font face looks great. But I have to deal with the fact that most people use the cruddy browser. And since I can search on your name, I see that you've been making constructive comments all over. Can't run away from that. Is this more legible to you? The letters are tiny to me.
In time, maybe everyone will adopt a splashy signature attachment. I see you in a strong green.
Ken Hill, Wisdom Inc.
If you like it, code your sig file like this, but reverse the arrows:
>font color="#006600"font size="3"b/b/font/font<
Dick
, your message is an inspiration that I'm going to run with. More later on that.
And Bill
, I see play potential in you too. Clearly you've risen above the crowd who can't do better than to offer me long winded, unimaginative put-downs. But if you want me to chase you around and hound you, you'll need a searchable closure. Helen
Edited 4/6/2002 1:34:45 PM ET by HWells
H, do you not have the option to increase the viewable font size here, at the bottom of the right frame? I remember that you are using some fruity comp, but I forget the browser...Netscape? Funny how anyone would design web software without taking into consideration different browsers, that is web design 101 stuff.
I'll try a sig...my first, bear with me.
Most annoying chest thumper to ever grab a hammer. Know all, never wrong.
Contact me at 1 800 worshipme
But if you want me to chase you around and hound you, you'll need a searchable closure.
I don't.
That is why I am going to try out the IGNORE feature.
Hi
QM,
pleased to meet you. Your teal text is looking very handsome on my Diamondtron.
You've hit on why I'm so impatient with the whiners. Nobody has to work harder at making Prospero work than little old me. I've tried 6 different browsers. They all display exactly the same except for EI. So what you all see on your screens is something completely different than what I get. I'm lucky to have that and not going to complain about it.
You know what happens when I click the text size buttons you mention? Everybody's text gets bigger, except mine. Part of this is my fault. I use an array of big monitors and sit almost 3 feet away from them. The long focus is very easy on my eyes and great for imaging. But at that distance, I can't read tiny text. So I've adjusted my browser by magnifying the windows. It makes for huge windows, but that's ok. Outstanding cooperation on my part huh?
I am so looking forward to your chest thumping. Don't feel obliged to wear a shirt for my benefit.
And
Miammi,
you're not calling me Norm in this thread? Just so you know, I let you off easy and your colors are the only thing saving you. But if I don't get some pictures out you, I'm coming over and stealing all your tools. And your Bud Lite. And your dog. Just ask Henry. I'll do it.
ooOOOooo
Bill.
Nicely done. Quoting me? Chasing me to say, bet panting breaths, that you are really going to ignore me, maybe, this time for sure! The funniest thing posted all day. I knew you had it in you. We're going to get along great.
Helen
Helen, Ok, I'll come clean; I can barely figure out how to view a picture and get back. The thought of trying to get one from my camera to the thread area frightens me more than my annual "complete" physical.I can build whole houses,yet this technology makes me a fool on a daily basis! ( the balance of the time I do it myself!) If you can explain in VERY simple laymans terms just how to do it ( I have an unused scanner) I'll do my best to let you see some of my work and tools! Please don't hurt me! One warning though... you had better be really,really fast if you want to get past the dog! I have yet to see anything get past her.
To the black and white reader, this is for you. If I post anything of real lasting value, It'll be in black in deference to your point. Don't expect much in black though as there is little of lasting value that I post!
Miami
Miami
Hi H,
Thanx for the compliment on the color, but I am not attached to any particular one. I didn’t realize that colors bothered so many, hmm, a new tool. Anyhow, I guess I could try purkle… not sure if it is webhappy>>>
I pasted your message in reply and clicked source, (I know, lazy but it works), and your code looks very busy. I wondered if this site isn’t adding some freaky additions that affect what you see, or if you are just trying to wear yourself out with a lot of unnecessary code and a lot of redundancy. (ha, nevermind, I just saw what this message looks like, omg. Who wrote this junk?) Do you code on the fly, or do you use a “tool”?I haven’t coded much here, but I do know that the reply window is a circus act. Before you assume that I am a fellow geek I should say that I just dabble but always kiss, (keep it simple stupid), and the creditors are happy I am keeping the day job. (hmm, purkle looks blue)
So you force the font size, yet your font shows smaller…I’m dying here. I can only guess that you view at a mombo res and the site’s standard font size is killing you. Try just coding font size for special occasions and bumping up the site font at the bottom. Maybe you can hook up with someone and go play in the sandbox for a bit until you can get this to work for you. And another thing, why bold, that is also redundant for you, lol.
As for the chest thumping, I won’t go back to see what I wrote, (gawd only knows where I would end up, Cooks maybe?), but that was just a not so subtle dig at some of the heros, I prefer any chest thumping to be done by a second party and shirts are a drag. /Blush
qtrmeg.. your font is way small.....i'd guess 8..
& HW is way big... looks like about 14...least that's teh way they both appear to me on a 21" monitor
i'm now running IE , finally gave up on Netscape, since my cable co. no longer supports Netscape... my loss..
me.. i find the lack of uniformity in the text body , other than an occasional EMPHASIS, to be very annoying.. but so is life at times
Mike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I figured out what I was doing that makes my font look small to you. Before when I posted I left the font the default size, but it looked too small on my screen so I clicked on font size #1, (which looked bigger to me). Well then someone mentioned that you could adjust everyone’s fonts at the bottom of the right frame, so I increased to 11 and everything looked about the same…to me. So following the advice to H I will stop forcing the font to #1 and just leave it at the default, if it lets me. I imagine that you must have the text size set higher than 11 if my font looks too small, and that makes sense if you are running a 21” monitor. I have a 17” w/ the resolution set to 1024x768, (or something like that).
Maybe that will work, (I tried it on this post), or maybe it won’t. I know I played around with the different fonts one time and now if I check my code for a post I have about four or five fonts tagged in there, so maybe my font size will always be #1.
Are we having fun yet? One other thing, I lowered the text size in the right frame to verify the above wisdom and I kept getting bumped to the top of the page, then had to scroll back down to adjust again. Nice, at least I stayed on the same page, but maybe there could be some cutting edge web design that would keep you where the hell you wanted to be and even offer the option to adjust by more than one increment at a time. Ya I’m whining, but at least I am getting good at it.
Oh well, here goes nothing...
The nerve of you expecting appropriate design on modern software. btw, your text size is now like all the others should be. Of course it's still blue, which is harder to read, but maybe that's enough conformity for you for one day! :) fwiw, I set the size to 8, but that's really readable on my new display.
Have you ever read The Psychology of Everyday Things, by Donald Norman? Great take on things obvious and not obvious, from radios to buildings to computers.
actually , i have my font size set to 9 and i can read it from 3' away, or 6' away ( but i can't type from 6')... or from 12"
so, i have no idea y yur's is smaller than the others.....( or WAS.. now it's just like all the rest ..only skyblue )
but this post reminds me of another bitch....on webx as we were posting we could still scroll up and refreash our memories about what someone said.. or what something looked like..
now , you read, you post and they are discontinuous.. with my short term memory loss.. that's a problem... matter of fact , qtrmeg.. if your name weren't printed in the <to> box .. i'd forget who i was talking to...hah, hah, hah
Mike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 4/7/2002 3:32:35 PM ET by Mike Smith
cloud... now as to other things disjointed..i'm replying to you.. but it ain't going to be available for a certain <time delay>.. i don't think this is intentional.. or is it..
is that old theory that this is supposed to keep us from escalating verbal warfare legit ? or just another failure of the prospero site ?
i mean.. IYHO.. of courseMike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Cloud, I never expect too much and I am rarely disappointed, but you have to admit that this software keeps you amused. As for the color, the funny thing is I like black; my trucks are black, my dog is black, most of my t-shirts are black, etc. Maybe I am just bored, or maybe I like to irritate people, I dunno. For yuse gize I’ll go black for once.
Nope, never read it, but it sounds interesting.
Mike, what do I know? I guess it was enough to figure out I was screwing something up…again. Geez, again with the color gripe, I guess I’ll have to find some other way to amuse myself, maybe go clean the garage.
As for the memory thing, I have the same problem and now write the posts in Word so I can see the thread. Thing is, when I paste the babble into the message window Prospero double spaces between paragraphs, so I fix that, (most of the time).
The continue button is a joke, sometimes if you wait a bit before clicking it you will go to the message you posted, but if the site is busy you can end up anywhere. I doubt that they designed this to stifle warfare, but who knows what they were thinking…anything?
qtrmeg.....you post in any damn color u want...
just remember when ur older than dirt like me how the nice young man posted in black..hah, hah, hah
do u remember when someone would post in CAPS.. on the old forums.. and at least 3 people would jump their bones about not shouting and being rude... ?
anything to amuse us peasants , i guessMike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
qtrmeg, you know I was kidding, right? I care a lot more about the quality of a person's writing than the color and size of his font. Wink, wink. Ha ha ha.
I've seen this theory advanced a few times here. Reminds me of the introduction of New Coke. What a mess. Then they reintroduced the renamed Classic Coke. Sales jumped to record levels. The CEO was asked if that was all part of a secret plan to create controversy, get free publicity, and then benefit from that publicity. He responded, "I'm not that smart, and I'm not that dumb"
The only two features which could have a beneficial effect on warfare are Ignore and eternal-editing. If some Taunton exec actually conjured up that they'll find a forum with an overly complex interface that will make people uninclined to post so they'll vent on Prospero rather than each other or just go away, then that exec has way too much time on their hands and an overly-stimulated imagination. Probably a conspiracy theorist, too. So, no, I don't think that. In fact, I don't believe that the powers-that-be actually thought that Prospero's interface was complicated, and therefore never anticipated the consequences of it really being so. And, imho, that's the fundamental mistake here.
What makes it especially sad is the mess was so preventable. With all we know this far into the computer revolution about user-centered design and testing and focus groups, to implement something this seemingly inappropriate for the target-audience boggles my mind. Even if there was no plan to test it with representative users (which begs the question....why the #### not?), at least they could've forced Prospero to fix a multitude of bugs and sins before switching over from WebX. Shoot, collectively we identified enough oddities in the first 24 hours to have held any product I was ever associated with off the market till they were fixed. If there was a considered and coordinated beta test plan, I wonder how all of this slipped through.
Now I'm inclined to give Taunton the benefit of the doubt, and believe this whole mess started be/c WebX was more of an administrative nightmare than we will ever know. I remember the times it was down for days at once, and the re-indexing, and the new "features" being sprung on them, and it probably wasted so much of Taunton employees' time that they decided a change was imperative. And Prospero likely pointed out that their stuff had been implemented in numerous other environments with tremendous success. True or not, one wonders if the demographic of those users is such that they're more technologically-comfortable than the FHB demographic (or as Jeff Buck might put it, ya think those other forums are more likely filled with "computer geeks" than these boards?). I think that's a good bet. But the failure to identify that, to test for it, and then to have a plan to overcome it represents a classic "failure to communicate".
ummmm...what was the question? Oh, yeah....No, I don't buy that theory. Nor do I see it as a failure of Prospero in general, which may very well work in other environs. It was a failure of the "user" side of the process for implementing a new system--some people (and I'm not talking about sysops or moderators, so far as I know) apparently wanted the solution to fit, and so guessed that it would fit, and so assumed that it would fit, and so convinced themselves that it would fit, and so saw no need to verify if indeed it did fit. Still not clear if they're acknowledging that it's been an....imperfect.... fit. imho.
man , do i ever love HO's.....as if , right ?
anyhow , no i never thot that either... but it was being espoused liberally...
i wonder y there is no response to date about any of this...the damage can be uncorrectible.. like if i screw up and make a mistake.. and let it fester on one of my jobs instead of correcting it.. the problem gets worse... and the confidence level plummets to a point where we could never win it back...
some of these clients are described as whiners..but mostly we just call them clients...hello.. prospero...anyone listening ?Mike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
>and let it fester on one of my jobs instead of correcting it
Yes, in a nutshell, ita.
Hi Mike,
Somewhere around here I read a post of Andy's in which he stated that he was never consulted for his input into the choice of web hosts. I just laughed! It is a classic Dilbert scenario.
The guy in the company who deals directly with this site more than anybody else isn't let in on the decision.
And the customers are totally ignored.
And the system isn't adequatly tested.
And when the customers let their feelings be known, they're looked upon like they're just a bunch of whiners.
And when they are finally responded to, they are told "don't worry-we're will take care of it" but nothing changes.
Life imitates art, no?
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
svenny, at least we got each other...
sometimes u yust kill me...hah, hah,hah... are you comming to recko's ?Mike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
No, I won't be there. I've got a senior and a freshman on the HS track team, and all my Saturdays are tied up.
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
To the man with the post and beam problem.....
I can't find your original question but look what I can do...
RED!!!!
Big and RED!!!
Now it's reallllll little....and black.......
NOW BIG AND GREEN AND COMIC!!!!
I'd love to help out, but..............it's better to be able to print in funny colors than help you with your problems. Who cares if a question falls off the board in about a day if no one has the time to respond like RIGHT NOW.
Ed.
“qtrmeg.....you post in any damn color u want...”
Mikevisionversion>>>Yeps, usually do. Funny thing is all the font sizes and colors are starting to wear me out. You know another funny thing? Ages ago I printed all my proposals out in caps, easier to read and I didn’t have to shift), so I guess I was yelling at everyone.
Cloud, I gotcha, kidded right back.
OK...........enough fun.
I can work the system.........I've got it figured out. Not a problem. Does that make it better than Web Crossing? Not for me. Everything is just too spread out.
Does Taunton care? They say they do, but I want answers. When is this big meeting with Prospero? What changes are you gonna ask about? I want an update ASAP.
You say it's none of my business?
I am your business. Me and the others here like me are your freaking business.
I subscribe to your magazine. I add content (from someone who actually does full time what your magazine sells) to your forum.
The DIY crowd here seems to like this new set-up. I have yet to hear a kind word from those of us who actually get out in the field and BUILD the homes you sell a magazine about.
Don't let us down, or you may be stuck with a bunch of people asking questions but no one who knows the answers are listening.
Ed.
Ed,
My sentiments exactly.
The feeling around seems to be that the system is designed to treat the discussion forums like the Tavern and IPKE as unimportant, since the loss of outline, threaded discussions, etc. affects the 'conversation' forums more than any others.
What they seem to have forgotten is a majority of the 'builders' come FOR the discussion forums as much as to answer questions.IDG.
Edited 4/8/2002 1:10:28 AM ET by IanG
Ed, where the aych do you get off with the last post?? I must let you know you are really, really, REALLY off base with your lastest diatribe about the perceived shortcomings of Prospero. You are SO WRONG!!! You're jumping to conclusions. I think you should think about it for a couple weeks and see if anything changes. Because...
.
.
The DIY's hate it, too.
I am your business. Me and the others here like me are your freaking business.
I subscribe to your magazine. I add content (from someone who actually does full time what your magazine sells) to your forum.
Right on, Ed. Have you posted in the Sandbox? Supposedly, prospering mightily reads that forum.
A lot of people in this thread seem to think that Prospero is a new piece of software, so buggy that it never should have got out of alpha testing. To me it seems to be quite the opposite, it looks like a very old program that has been modified in accordance with suggestions from users down through the years. That results in something that works fine for the people who were there from the beginning, and saw each new bell and whistle get added to the clutter. But to those who come to it fresh, without all that history, it's just an incomprehensible mess. Its priorities are all out of whack, with so much screen space devoted to things other than the text we want to read, and with important things hidden away, such as having to click on a tiny message count number to see the rest of the messages in a folder. The learning curve is huge, because it really needs to replicate all the history that created the problem -- I mean the program.
There are termites in Africa that build dirt mounds that can be up to 20 feet tall. Each termite adds a few dabs of mud here and there, but there is no overall termite architect with a plan and a vision for the whole mound. Prospero is a termite mound.
That being said, though, I can live with it, even though I don't like it.
-- J.S.
LOL John!
John,
I think it's both. It sure does have "feature creep" coming from a long history of well-intentioned upgrades. I've heard much the same said about MS Word, for example. It also has glaring bugs, and these are a lot less understandable to me. But each are their own serious issue.
Termite mounds, huh? Ha ha ha! I like that.
Edited 4/8/2002 2:15:45 PM ET by Cloud Hidden
Sorry splints.............I couldn't get your name to come up in the nice little "To:" box. You're not on the list.
Didn't mean to tweak your nose. I've seen pictures of you and your work in Breaktimes last incarnation. You know your way around..............no doubt about it. I don't consider you the DIY typical case.
Am I off base? Hardly.
Sit back and wait? How long?
Until they have decide that we've stopped bitching for a while so everything's alright?
If we shut-up now, they'll think we went away and nothing will happen.
Let the fire smolder and you'll lose the light. Lose the light and you can't see your way around the battle field. Lose your vision and you've lost the war.
If we're not vocal about what we want, who's gonna know? Why would they care? Hell...............if nobody's been bitching for a while..........I guess everything's alright.
If you want to sit it out........fine. I'll walk the point....you watch my back.
Ed.
Edited 4/8/2002 9:57:42 PM ET by GACC Dallas
Ed, after you give up like I am, I hope the diyers will appreciate all the help helen will give them.
blue
hey, this message popped up. Now I should go find my other one, but I won't waste my time.
anyways, I was going to start reading again, decided that this site was too frustrating and went for the red x at the top right corner in disgust. Then, I decided I'd post my anger and hope it vents and allows me to think a little calmer about this site. It's not helping.
The last few times I've been here, I've angrily x'd out of here. Thats a true sign to me. I know how to read myself after 48 years. That's a sign for me to change, to let it go, to leave it behind, to move on.
Time is short. I won't be surprised if I start wandering through my files deleting all traces of these taunton links.
Nice knowing all of you. If you find a suitable alternative site, email me.
Maybe we could all start meeting on a building newsgroup. Does anyone know how to use them? I do, I've looked in them but found the building groups to be too lame and spammy.
Let me know if something comes up. I've pretty much lost all desire to check in here.
blue
Termite? Did someone say termite mound?
Ed, Blue. Sure hope you're not ignoring me. If you want to whine with me, do it in style.
Helen
Thanks for reminding me.........
Consider yourself "ignored"
You can respond to this if you'd like.
I won't see it anyway.
You waste my time.
Bye!
ed... you're practically an upstart.. you should have one of the classic models ... a '44....
hah, hah, hahMike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Oh WH, don't be a Wet Diaper. And you don't have to log in as guest just for me. One ditty per customer and time to move on.Ed, I've yet to be ignored. Many men have tried. You won't hurt my feelings and I have no mind to hurt yours. Try to have fun. You get two verses bec you gave me your measurements.
Ed was furious about paying Taunton's Fee.
'This place will die a quick death without me.'
"Respond, like RIGHT NOW."
Or I'll have a cow.
Or I'll get Big and RED!!! You'll see!
We hope the forum gets fixed even faster,
To see him write about joist and rafter.
Giving me the Button?
I can still watch your saw cuttin'
To Helly, that's far from disaster.
Helen
blue.. my computer is still screwed up & i can't get your email address.. will you email me ?
qtrmeg sent me the links to fix this IE crap , but i haven't got around to it yet..
try me at [email protected]Mike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
There was a time that I considered this site addicting, but this new format cured me.
It is not that I can't find my way around, it just isn't comfortable.
We are being told that this change was brought about because of complaints that we had with the old forum. I imagine those complaints were aimed at specific problems.
Who ever asked that the entire format be junked?
Don't lay this change on the posters - this was not what anyone asked for.
I won't be leaving this site just yet, I am waiting to see what changes will be made - but I honestly don't hold out much hope.
Terry
Hey Blue.........
Like you, I'm a '54 model. Like you, I can handle change, but this is not good.
I'm sticking around for a little while just to watch it die.
Been fun,
Ed.
Oh, Ed, i haven't been so misunderstood since the time i attempted to employ the English idiom, "Blow this for a game of soldiers."
I'm wholeheartedly and sarcastically in agreement with your sentiments, except the one where you think the DIY's like this site. I make my living as a widget-woman and house-remodeler in a minor league compared to you, but it doesn't mean i can't tell quality when i see it. But i assure you that it's not here for me and my ilk any more than it is for you.
Almost every day i find myself remembering something i learned at BT. Today i'm trying to finish up the shingling on my porch and recalling conversations on spacing consideratons and opinions on the right size galv nails to use for trim. I try to give back once i learn something myself, but now i find myself skipping over posts i could answer, feeling like a jerk for doing so because malaise doesn't suit me.
I'm all for a boycott of answering questions and instead flooding the place--providing we can find it--with lots and lots and lots of reminders that we're still waiting. As Cloud noted, we haven't seen even any token improvements to indicate Prosperous is the highly responsive agent which we were assured it would be. I've learned to do the work-arounds, but i feel as you do, that i am a customer of Taunton and although we don't send them a fee directly for using this site, we all support it with in-kind services.
Get your back? Well, i'm sure it's a pretty nice behind, but lagging isn't my style, big guy. I've been patient out of principle not laziness, but i've turned that corner, too; i really feel there is little left to lose and possibly something that can be salvaged. As ClayB said one time: I got words!!!
Nah Ed,
Splinter's right. DYI'ers like me don't much care for it either, especially if the pros like you don't post and come here as often.
After a few weeks on the new site and getting used to it, probably the one thing I miss the most is the ability for folks to post their pictorial threads. The limitation on pics is a huge downgrade on the useful content of the Taunton site.Mary
Gardening and remodeling in Zone 6, MD
Hey TESAJE,
Thanks.
Ed.
Well, its nice to see about five old faces in one thread. the thread doesn't make any sense at all as i read it, but at least I'm seeing some old friends.
I'm really going to miss all of you if they don't get this fixed.
I really am depressed about this mess too. I can't believe someone would screw up something so bad, that was so good. I learned more on this site in the two years than I learned from any other source since Ive been in the trades. There really wasn't a place that had do much diversity and real world experience. There were/are lots of wannabees....
Sorry Taunton, I'm leaving this place for the diyers. I havn't looked into one construction thread since you've changed. I know you don't need me, nor my two and a half decades of struggle out there in the mud....I know you don't care. and therefore I won't allow myself to care either when I make my final exit.
Unbelievable.
blue
"on webx as we were posting we could still scroll up and refreash our memories about what someone said.. or what something looked like.."
You can see the post you're replying to here too - scroll down the posting screen - it's at the bottom.
"A completed home is a listed home."
I would edit my last post, but I don't know where it is.
this is fun. I hope everyone learns a lot from this site. Learning to make big red letters is fun.
fun
fun fun
fun
Easy there Blue.
Honestly, you can't find the edit button?
I can't say it's not there, because I don't have font options. Danged if I understand this. But I do have the edit button, and not for a measly half hour like on the last board. that's an advantage.
Blue
That red and font is not too bad, but I still prefer the plan black.
But whatever Helen is using is certainly not FUN, at least on my monitor. I think that she uses a bold font along with a strange color and it just "smears" and I don't see any reason to have to fight it.
BTW, the ignore function realy works nicely. On any post from here the To/From is show with a symbol of a face with a diagonal through it. And not horrible message text.
Dear HelenI think I have to take a leak, and I need somebody to explain my ass from my elbow.I'm so worried that if I leave the board I won't be able to find my way back because every time I try to go back I end up where I didn't start from -- use a guide-dog you'll say, but my landlord doesn't allow dogs or cats, the guide-tortoise was too slow and the guide-goldfish was a bad idea. It's not as if I can find out who I'm talking to or who's talking to me or even what we're talking about and I'd give up and leave but this board doesn't support Opera, which is another problem because as you know it's not over until the fat lady sings and where am I going to find a fat lady at this time of night?I'm so depressed..............
Edited 4/3/2002 5:42:29 AM ET by IanG
where am I going to find a fat lady at this time of night? I'm so depressed..............
Ian, where ever you are, I can tell you that out here in East Overshoe, spring has come fast and we're mighty careful about taking the shortcut across the pond. Thin ice. Yup, got to be wary of what's underfoot at all times. 'Specially at night.
And the other thing: you've got a browser that doesn't work? I got four. So I win. Na na na.
Helen
Helen, obviously hygiene plays heavily on your mind these days. I understand you don't like a mess, that all these folks dumping the contents of their emotional toyboxes on your clean tile makes you want to Swiffer 'em out the door, but Blue and Ed don't fit the profile. They hate it freely, as men strive for right/They hate it purely, as they turn from praise. You've got to admit those kamikase guys had a certain je ne sais quoi that the Vichy government didn't.
Suppose all us animal right nutcakes had one big march about ten years ago and said, "Well, we tried, and they just wouldn't listen." Where would you get your PETA jokes then huh?
View Image
Splinter:
The caption for that photo you just posted "Save a tree--eat a beaver"
View Image
Nudity + Focus = Pornography
Helen
Pornography? Well, it's not called a beaver shot for nothing, H. And it's only pornography if the beaver isn't wearing his coat.
Do you have any pics. with barnyard animals in latex? It's for a "friend"
Dave
Dave,
My research team misunderstood my orders to "find cows in latex", and came back with this from those intrepid buggers across the Pond. I hope it fits your needs.
whoa dave.. sometimes u yust kill me....
helen... it's a short "u" not a long one.. ie: it's not "bot hay"
it's " but hey, whadda i no ?"
see page 21 of don bosquet's guide to talking to rhodislan natives
Mike Smith
Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
bot hay
Just a courtesy Mike. Trying to avoid copying your on screen persona so tightly that people would confuse us. Thanks for being nice.
Helen
Helen,
We complain about the board.
You complain about us complaining.
One of us is trying to be constructive.
It ain't you.
Ed.
Edited 4/4/2002 10:48:25 AM ET by GACC Dallas
Oh dear. Sorry Ed. We posted simultaneously. Take my advice to Blue. Devise some witty, sexy, or noble line. Or just use "Ed". And use the preference feature to have it attached to every one of your posts. Then I can search on YOU too. This is how I can stay connected to the writers I don't want to ever miss reading.
And just so you know, I'm not allowed to complain anymore. I was stoned, trolled, and finally banned for being constructive. I didn't break a single rule. I didn't get a warning. I only tried to make Breaktime better. So be nice to me, bec I'm on your side.
Helen
I had trouble logging in today. So I entered as a guest. And made the mistake of coming here... just in time to see Helen's BLATANT LIES.
What a crock! You claim you don't know WHY you got banned... and that you didn't break any rules. Some of us know the truth! And it is different than your delusions tell you.
You are one of the most arrogant person's I know. I literally despise you and want everyone here to know it.
Why don't you go back where you came from? You add absolutely nothing of value to this forum. You are just here to be a pain in the ass. Well, sometimes a pain in the ass needs to be kicked in the ass. I hereby kick you in the ass as a favor to all the decent people here.
Now back on ignore you go!
"Have you posted in the Sandbox? Supposedly, prospering mightily reads that forum."
Where's the sandbox?
If you go up to the top right hand corner of the screen you can see a button labelled 'My Forums' Click that and you'll find a link.IDG.
Wethead- you got class. Somebody had to say it. Bravo
Rez reckoned Wet Head had classWhen he called H a pain in the a$$But for all of his gabbin'His class is pure cabinAnd the girl still has balls made of brass.
Sorry Ed, it's not at all likely that we'll go back to the WebX forum. And I don't think that anyone from Taunton ever suggested that we might. What we are doing is working to improve this format. Look later in the poll thread in the Tavern for a post from Mark explaining what his next move is.Andy Engel, Forum moderatorHas anyone seen this poll? Maybe it just doesn't show up on my browser....
Edited 4/9/2002 3:18:48 AM ET by splintergroupie
here you go splints - they moved it to forum suggestions -
http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-breaktime&msg=19113.1
Oh you're fast SG, but I'll beat you to the next one.
Helen
I can't believe the general discussion board has vegetated to limericks tainted with vulgarity, and from a poster I previously respected.
Folks, this slide to the abyss isn't funny anymore.
I wonder how many other readers are thinking of packing up their saw and headin' for the house.
Rez, i'm shocked!!!
You didn't know limericks are supposed to be vulgar???
You're right, this slide into the abyss isn't fun. And it's harder for me to keep from sliding with you on my back.
Splints... please don't lower yourself to this peron's level. I respect and like you. You make me angry too as you well know. But this person is on a level far below your dignity. It has nothing to do with her positions, etc. and everything to do with the horrible attitude she has.
Wet Head,
I, too, respectfully disagree with you about H. I would give my right arm and both left feet to be able to write like that, even though she regularly mis-guages the public mood. Or maybe my affection is due in substantial part to that very contrariness--i so appreciate folks who help haul my butt a little farther away from the box, whether i agree with their position or not.
I also fully believe that if her name had been Harold and he posted a pic of his truck, you'd have an entirely different viewpoint on the words. People fall all over themselves with delight--and rightly so--whenever ClayB shows up, and his poems make H's dripping sarcasm look like a letter to the Pope.
Horrible attitude? Do you have the slightest idea the kind of time it takes to write something like her Perfect Whine? My guess is at least two hours, closer to three. That's dedication, my friend; don't mistake it for anything else.
And lose the ignore button--it's like taking Valium before having sex.
Oh little sliver of wood in the forest-
Nope, not a boy/girl thing at all. I feel the same way as wet head. Warm Thoughts From FLA
Adele, your saying you agree with Wet Head does nothing to negate the point i was making.
Well, where misology flurishes, misogyny lives..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
I respectfully disagree. My post was very classless. I felt I needed to say it anyway.
For some strange reason I can't see anything in Helen's posts... hmmmm
I can't see anything in Helen's posts... hmmmm
Could it get any better than this? He can't *see* me. What to do, what to do, what to do? I think he works on pipes and boilers and such.
Wet pretended to be nose thumbing,
But to me, it was more about his humming.
Making yourself blind,
Is a hard way to find,
Your snoot too deep in my [residential drinking water system].
Whew, that almost got out of hand.
Helen
Helen, as you may have guessed,I too like color. I read 2-5 books a week and get kind of bored w/ black and white. If someone doesn't like my red they may feel free to skip my commentaries also. Someone somewhere said "There is no black and white only meaningful shades of grey" ( loosely quoted, I'm sure). For what it's worth, I personally like your style.
Miami
miammi sammi-
Not to offend you or anything, but the reason for reading books isn't to look at pretty colored letters. People read to learn what they don't know, or to read about stuff that fascinates them. When I read, I'm looking at letters on paper (or a monitor), but in my head I'm seeing myself siding a house, or flying a plane, or walking on the moon.
I can't stand all this colored text. I come here to read what those who know more than me have to say about carpentry and such. I find those who post intelligent responses and questions interesting, and I read them. I don't read messages because they are in large colored text, unless they are intelligent.
If I have to pay to rent my OS and browser, I'm going to open source unix.
When people 100 years from now see my work, they'll know I cared. --Matt Mulka
Prospero is "committed to proprietary MS standards which are very anti-web, anti-free access. When they go to .net technology, I think Taunton is going to get a big shock. "
Indeed. MS has done more to stifle computing and the internet that anyone who only knows the MS way of doing things can possibly imagine!
> I miss the simple search
All the way at the bottom on the left there's a search that seems to me to work just like the old one. The important stuff does get lost in the clutter, though.
-- J.S.
Hi Blue, pleased to meet you too.
Knowledgeable writers are key to the success of any forum. And I'm not here to discount Ed's efforts or yours. But your insufferable whining is a drag. You both are boring and no help to me. If you want to leave, just go. But I've got bad news if you think the world will stop turning.
And crayons my sweet ass. You ever blubber about Joe Fusco's blue text? Grow up you big baby. I'm embarrassed for you and your Mamma would be too.
The "new crowd", whatever you mean by that, will not duplicate the past. We (hoping I can be part of it) will make it better. You're not in? Too bad for you. If you'd like to discuss how great things were in the "olden days", I'll set your ears to the same color as your eyes. But before I do that, how tall are you?
Helen
Looks like Helen is going to bring a little fire and vinegar to the boards guys. Things may get pretty interesting. Welcome aboard Helen.
Ed, I hope you will stick around. When I first started coming to breaktime, I did my best to read everything you and Blue posted, still do in fact. You guys stood out as knowing how to do things right the first time and are also able to put your thoughts in print in a way I understand. Since I've been coming here I have learned to value the input of other members of this community almost as much as yours.
I guess what I am trying to say is that yes, the format has changed but the quality of content can stay the same, but only if folks like you, Blue, Mike Smith, Stan, Armin, and the list goes on, stick it out and make the best of the hand we have all been dealt.TCW Specialists in Custom Remodeling.
Yeah... and she gets VERY irritating! Thak God for the ignore button! What a condesending je*k she can be!
so when are you going to push the ignore button? Duh!
Don't be so friggin stupid please. I already did...
Your comments and emphasized words only serve to make you look like a mor... well I won't say it.
I,m new to this sight so please excuse the minor interruption. The forum seems ok to me. I'm a computer ignorant guy trying to catch up w/ technology. Been building for 23 years; still love it! Seems like poeple who even know about this sight are quality oriented, educated, "seasoned" builders ( or even some pretty bright new folks) who just want to pass on some of the wisdom and spare the younger the pain of youthful ignorance. Can we put our differences aside and move on? I've read a lot of the posts, learned some pretty cool stuff too! Please do not think that I am trying to assert any...anything. I just think that we can rise above the inconveniences and just help each other. I assume that's what "the good old days" refer to. Am I sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong? If so, please accept my apology.
Miammi
This place is a blast, you'll love it.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Helen, nice attempt to bait me into a childish game of name calling. I'm happy that you think I'm a bore, and whatever other insult you aimed at me. I'd be happy to engage you in the useless nitpicking back and forth, but alas, I'm not interested.
I'm glad you and the new crowd will make this place better. More power to you.
blue
Oops Helen, I forgot one thing. I'd edit my first post, but if I went looking for it, I'd be lost forever.
My suggestion to you, and to all the others that are bored and tired of hearing our whinings is simple. Why don't you use the newfangled tools that allow you to ignore us. Isn't that what this new board is supposed to be all about? New and better tools?
Now, just push the ignore button on my name and presto, you won't be bored anymore!
Your welcome for the helpful suggestion.
blue
Oh you Blue knuckle head. I don't ignore anybody. Even when they're being mean. Even when they're being dumb or boring. Even when they are consumed with self pity. And that's bec I'm always willing to believe there's a better person beyond a few ill chosen words.
My point, if you must force me to be so Witchy, is that you and Ed will continue to be valuable, interesting, and informative contributers. By threatening to leave, you've overplayed your cards. You can't force them to make the forum software better bec they don't know how. Get it?
It doesn't matter how badly Mark, Andy, and Luka screw up this forum. (damn, did I say that?) The writers are too powerful, and will find a way to make it work. And the sooner you learn this, the more fun we will all be having.
So dry your eyes, and get your signature file going. That way, I can search on YOU and see all your good stuff.
And another thing. I don't attack with nasty names. Don't need to. If you're mean to me, you get a Witchy Thing. But if you are nice, then I'll be very nice. Let show you how this works:
Hey John Sprung. Thanks so much for your tip on the search feature. It won't pick up on the writer's name though. So I use people's closures or sig file to search for them. Sure do wish EVERYBODY would imprint some consistent hook into their posts like you do. I found 100 of your messages and was interested to see how widely your comments ranged. See you later.
Helen
Edited 4/4/2002 11:05:32 AM ET by HWells
After many sessions of "running into the wall" of the "NEW SYSOP", I'v found there are numerous door and windows in this wall of change.
I actually have begun to LIKE IT,
Horrid thought.................can't bitch any more!
It makes for a better day..............things are okay..............smile...................Iron Helix
I like it much to my surprise.
joe d
Sorry Ed, it's not at all likely that we'll go back to the WebX forum. And I don't think that anyone from Taunton ever suggested that we might. What we are doing is working to improve this format. Look later in the poll thread in the Tavern for a post from Mark explaining what his next move is.
Of course I don't like this as well as the old one, but I can live with it.
-- J.S.
Thanks Andy.......I did, and I hope Prospero can fix what we perceive to be broken.
Ed.
I'm at my shop visiting on Netscape and the spell checker seems to be down. Is it just NS? At home, my IE seems to pick up everything. I don't think this software is Netscape friendly.