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I got such a great response on my paint question I thought I’d try another. We will be replacing all of our kitchen cabinets. We were looking at store-bought cabinets (American Woodmark) and mentioned to the salesperson that we were also considering custom cabinets. The salesman said that one difference between store-bought and custom is that the store-bought cabinets are all made out of state (we are in California) and that the finishing process was not subject to the same stringent California environmental regulations that would apply to a local cabinetmaker. As a result, he said, the storebought cabinets could use better finishing processes and the finish on the store-boughts would therefore be better and more durable than on the customs.
My question is whether this is just salesman BS or is this a legitimate point that we should take into account in making our decision?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Rich
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Rich,
I sounds right to me. They've tried to ban everything in California that may be related to anything that causes cancer. Here in Texas, we don't care. Why is your state so paranoid?
Ever been on the Hollywood freeway? Talk about life threatening. Ever been in East Los Angeles? Talk about taking your life in your own hands. But then here in Dallas we have Central Expressway and Oak Cliff.
None of those places I mentioned in California or Dallas are as bad as they are made out to be.
Same with the products that they claim causes cancer if you ask me. Much ado about nothing.
Ed.
*Rich- How can the salesman know what finishes a custom cabinet maker is using. Ask him exactly which finish american woodmark is using (if he knows) and compare them.I don't understand shopping custom cabinets against American Woodmark.They are main stay home despot mass produced boxes. Its like going to Spagos and saying its a toss up between the cheese sandwich or the fillet.
*The salesman may have a point. I know how hard it is to get great paint anymore in Calif. It's really a mote point. The real differance is does American have the combination of cabinets that you find acceptable. Buy from the custom cabinet maker those really unique cabinets that will only fit in your house. Buy American if you can find the syle you like and the size that works. There are some real economies of scale at work here. American has machines all set up to produce decent quality cabinets on a production basis. The custom cabinet builder has to keep changing his set up. On the other hand only the unique spot, the special doors or style call for custom cabinets.
*Major Major crap shoot ordering cabinets from Home Depot or Lowes. Lotsa horror stories. Find a reputable local cabinet shop. At least they know how to read a tape measure and are beyond puberty
*Rich- what the salesman said is true- in theory -there are many finishing products once available here in southern cal that are straight up illegal to have in your shop- I am fairly sure American Woodmark uses a catalized lacquer of some sort- that exact type of finish may not be available here, but catalized lacquers are. What I find strange about this sales pitch is on more than a few times I have been on installs where the product arrived damaged or with a bad finish- what does the cabinet company rep do? Takes it to a local shop for repair. my finish is 3 coats sanding sealer(sanded between each) & 2-3 coats lacquer. I'll put my finish up against American Woodmark-plus I don't have seams between face frames- you got a run of cabinets, i give you one cabinet(if at all possible)- I may be ever-so-slightly biased, but go for the custom shop
*FWIW, we bought our KraftMaid cabinets at HD. I've been very happy with them. The finish is great. Now for the rest of the story... When we placed to order, the gal who 'designed' the kitchen said to be prepared to re-order some stuff due to damage, etc. So when the order came in, only about 25% of it was there (...?). The next time, only one cabinet was actually damaged from the young gorillas delivering them. Then I had to have a door replaced because it never should have passed quality control (discolored wood-no, this is NOT character...). Considering that the lead time for each order is 21-28 days, this can really mess up your schedule. We were doing it ourselves, and weren't even ready when the 1st partial order came, so it didn't matter to us. I must admit, though, I was getting frustrated at continually going back to HD with problems. But they always fixed them.
*It's a crock, in my opinion. There are many commercial cabinetry companies bidding and producing jobs to AWI and WIC specs in California (almost all their specified finishes are catalysed lacquers of some type), and there are plenty of shops using state of the art finishes for residential work. They do (the bigger shops) have to monitor the amount of VOC's and HAP's they release into the atmosphere, so they have to be careful to find a balance within everything they do in the shop that might release VOC's, but they are also, like everyone else, moving to more efficient spray gear (higher transfer efficiency=lower VOC's), and higher solids/low VOC finishes (fewer coats, less VOC's in each coat=fewer VOC's released total.) Also, the deadlines that California has put into place to try and force manufacturers to get cleaner keep getting pushed back. Lots of smaller shops are probably well within the regs, it's the big ones they're looking at. So, bottom line, I think you can get a state of the art finish in California.That said, you might very well get a better finish from a big manufacturer, than you would from a smaller shop, even if they are spraying the same material....the big players have the money to invest in super-efficient booths and air cleaning, which translates to a great finish, and the smaller shops do the best they can.Finish aside, what you get from a smaller custom shop is (probably): better quality materials in the cabinets, more attention to detail and higher quality in the construction (the big manufacturers may have great equipment, but the cabs get banged together with lots of hot melt glue and staples....fifteen minutes or so to assemble the average production line kitchen), more flexibility (way more usually) in the design/customisation process), better service, and, if something goes wrong, it gets righted way faster. Lots of other reasons to go custom too.FWIW, I had a really highly customised kitchen on the books when I went back to teaching, so I had to tell the clients I couldn't do it....the thing was half furniture, half cabinets,complicated solid surface stuff.... way the heck out of the world of production cabinets. the local dealer for a line of production cabs bid the job, basically for exactly the same price, and I KNOW they can't pull it off, it's not what they do. I don't know why they bid it.Anyway, bottom line is: finish is one part of it, and it may be true that you can often get an excelent finish fro the big companies. But there are many other factors that come into play also.
*Greg, you disappoint me. The picture of the cabs you showed didnt do them justice. Trust me guy those are some fine fine cabs.rich,is the retailer who gave you this info "home cheapo or blows" If so I wouldnt do business with them on a bet. why you ask?Big box is a corp. they dont build anything. they order and contract out for the installations. so if you have any problems you have to deal with a corp. acting as middleman w/ some pimply faced yahoo who couldnt make it on his own acting as a the rep.A cabinent shop on the other hand, you'd be talking to directly with the owner. its his rep on the line so he cares about what you think of his product and will work with you directly through any difficulty or prob that may arise. Includiing tearout installation if you want him to. Ive known the boxes to give a price on a set of cabs. When they call the the homeowner to tell them the re in the H.O. asks when they'll be delievered. the box' Oh we can deliever them for a added cost. H.O. when you gonna tear out my old cabs and install the new ones.. Boxes oh we dont do that but we can have some one out there to do it but its gonna cost you extra. rich i think you'll find that after all the cost associated with a box that your local cab maker will be very competively priced after you add all the the other stull up and you'll still have a better product w/ customer service directly from the owner.
*Years ago I worked in So. Cal (N. San Diego county) building custom cabinets. Most small custom shops in that area didn't even try to finish cabinets in their shops. Instead the cabinets were delivered and installed without finish and the painter stained and finished them on site. We had absolutely no control over the final finish and lots of otherwise nice jobs were ruined because of this. Probably something you should inquire about.I agree with what others have said about buying cabinets from a big box store. If you decide to go with store bought cabinets perhaps you should seek out a locally owned dealer that can provide individual service and that actually cares about the end product. That is if the big boxes haven't driven them all out of business.
*sorry Ron...
*If the sales rep's only reason for going pre-fab is the finish, you ought to be asking yourself a few questions. Quality of materials, attention to detail service are amoung them.I just did an install of a new kitchen with cabs from Home Depot (please don't tell anyone). The cabs were made from 1/2" melamine which was chipped and crushed at some corners (I always use 3/4" stock for the cases). They were hot glued together with staples. Hardly any of the beads of glue stuck to two mating surfaces and many of the staples were shiners (missed their mark). One of the large corner units was -- guess.....Yep! way out of square. That's nice when you need to make a square corner for a square countertop to sit on isn't it? Luckily I'm not a pimpley faced kid who can't make it on his own and was able to make it work.Aside from cruddy materials and workmanship, there was a poor finish on one of the doors (spray gun misswed a corner) four of the doors had the incorrectr profilr on the panels and needed to be sent back (6-8 weeks) not enough end panels were sent and when the remaining one finally came in (6-8 weeks later) it had the wrong finish so guess what?Yup!! another 6-8 weeks. Actually, they put a rush on it for me because they said that it was their fault. It only took about four weeks. I can't remember posatively that it was American Woodmark, but I think it was.And besides, They have boats in California don't they? They damn well better have some quality finishes there too that are legal.and then there's that part about filler strips and seams in the face frame. And hardware that dosn't work well.and flimsy toe kicksGood luck!!Dan Morrison
*You guys are great. We had been leaning towards the custom because we want a lot of "features", and it just made sense that a craftsman would do better quality work than a mass-produced product. But I had that little hesitation because of the finish issue and from what I am reading here that doesn't seem like it will be a problem. Best of all, after deciding in our minds that we would go custom if the finish issue wasn't a big deal, we got the word from our contractor that the custom will be very competitive, price-wise, with the store-bought. Kind of makes it a no-brainer. Thanks again, and in all likelihood, I'll be back.Rich
*Here's another HD "experience"... I've been 'coaching' a guy through his kitchen remodel. Actually he got so over his head he hired me to finish it for him. Anyway, he went and got a HD account and bought $6,000.00 worth of cabinets. Half had to be sent back due to damage. The rest were of such poor quality I wouldn't guarantee they'll last 5 years. A month later, we get more 'damaged' cabinets but I told him, if he wanted to put them in himself, go ahead and send them back. I had other work waiting and wouldn't be available in another month. I found him another deal on cabinets, half the cost, twice the quality at an outlet center and he declined. All I can say from all this is I'll NEVER buy cabinets at HD again nor will I ever place an credence in their 'customer service', nor will I ever try to coach someone with a single digit IQ through another job.
*Rich, there's also alternatives to the big boxes for stock and semi-stock cabs. I'm surprised your contractor hasn't given you more options...just let your fingers do the walking...bb
*I am always running into horror stories about the service or lack of service that is available from the BIG BOX yards. I don't know what the answer is.. Most people just asume they will get very good quality and service at a good price. Not always true. Most of the people at the big boxes don't know contractors and further more they don't want to know us. I think some of it is the consumer themselves. Quality doesn't mean squat! All they are interested in is price...
*Rich,I'll have to agree with most of the posts with exception to not being able to use certain finishes or paints in California. The truth is, I can't think of any finish that you cannot buy or use in California. The difference is in the spray booth requirements. The finishing shop that I use invested allot of money for the booth itself, fire protection and yearly permits and they can spray all the lacquers, paints and conversion varnishes they like and they're right here in a Los Angeles suburb.As far as the quality goes, stay away from the Home Depot and Lowes-type cabinets!! All the horror stories are true; I even have a couple of my own- breifly: a client came to us to install their HD cabinets because HD wanted too much for the installation (I think we were about half). While screwing the cabinets to the walls, the base cabinets actually started pulling apart! Overall, fair to poor quality at an above average price.Rich, are you in the LA area? E-mail me, I might be able to help you [email protected]
*> Stewardess With Power ToolsDang, I like you already..............(-:
*Not to defend the box stores, but you can get good quality cabinets from them, IF you request the all plywood construction and stay with the top of the line manufacturers. Be critical of the finish and look for damage as soon as they are delivered. Get to know your "designer" and be picky. If you are not willing to follow these guidelines adn still want good cabinets, go custom.
*The "All Plywood" construction is not always true. In the kitchen we installed for the client that bought from Home Depot, he paid an adder for "All Plywood". What he actually got was 1/2" plywood sides and particle board tops, bottoms, and backs. The toe-kicks were 1/2" particle board. It wouldn't take much of a "kick" to go through those. If I remember correctly, he bought the Kraft-Maid brand.When we build an All-Plywood cabinet, it's 3/4" plywood sides, tops, bottoms, and shelves. Backs are 1/4" ply with 3/4" stretchers. Bases are made with 3/4" plywood fronts and 3/4" solid fir frames. Most custom cabinet shops will build it this way if you ask. There will be an adder, of course, and some shops may ask substantially more because they have to finish all the inside surfaces. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with a well built melamine, Euro case. However, I would insist on a few details that make it better. First, insist on a solid wood edge band, minimum 1/8" or 3 mm PVC. Also, ask for heavy-duty shely standards like the KV 255- shelf pegs don't hold up that well in a particle board hole.
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I got such a great response on my paint question I thought I'd try another. We will be replacing all of our kitchen cabinets. We were looking at store-bought cabinets (American Woodmark) and mentioned to the salesperson that we were also considering custom cabinets. The salesman said that one difference between store-bought and custom is that the store-bought cabinets are all made out of state (we are in California) and that the finishing process was not subject to the same stringent California environmental regulations that would apply to a local cabinetmaker. As a result, he said, the storebought cabinets could use better finishing processes and the finish on the store-boughts would therefore be better and more durable than on the customs.
My question is whether this is just salesman BS or is this a legitimate point that we should take into account in making our decision?
Thanks in advance for your help.
Rich