Hey Gang, happy new year. Hope the holidays were good to everyone.
I’m about to pad out an out of plumb wall for kitchen cabinets. They’re out 1-7/8 over 13 feet (sill to top plate). On another, shorter, wall I had good luck using strapping with plywood shims of varying thickness to create a nice plumb, even surface.
Was thinking to use the same technicque here, and wondered if it were you if you’d use strapping (1×3 pine) or 3/4 ply ripped into 3″ strips. Nice thing about the 1X is that I can get it in 16 foot lengths and simply attach at the top and shim down from there with a level, whereas with the ply I’d have to do it in sections. Not the end of the world, obviously, but if there were an appreciable strength difference…
FWIW, I can use screws for the cabinets that are long enough to catch the original stud, so perhaps strength is not as much of an issue as I’m thinking.
Also very open to other ideas if ya got em. I’ve considered ripping a 14′ 2x from nothing to 2″, but it strikes me as awkward, expensive and harder to get a good finished product (on my limited skills, anyway!)
Look forward to your thoughts.
Thanks,
Brian
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Replies
Is the wall stripped of plaster/sheetrock? Not many mechanicals/wiring throught there yet? I would give consideration to studding next to the original framing.
If not stripped etc, then the continuous furring if flat outta the pile is probably easier. If pc'ing together, stagger the joints.
A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
yea, it's stripped and loaded with wire.
i originally thought about scabbing to the side prior to wiring, but we're going to icynene and I wanted to get as much insul as possible... leaving me with either jacking the structure (would have loved to... but ran out of time/money) or some kind of face mounted solution. Or something else yet I haven't figgered.
flat is another issue. I was going to have the stock delivered, but now that you mention... I should probably hand pick. should be fun, considering how long it takes to find flat 1x3 in an eight footer!_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
sister up the studs with metal ones - they will definitely be true, and there's space inside them for the ins'n.All the best...
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
hmmm... very interesting. recall an article in fhb that used steel for flattening a ceiling.
strong enough to hold cabinets, do you think? if so, that would be by far the easiest way to go. great idea._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
Thanks... I suggest that you put horizontal blocking at the places you'll hang the cabs - that should allay your fears I hopeAll the best...
To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.
Probably block at the top of base cab ht, definitely top of the uppers/bottom if you wish. Shear ok to mtl studs (20 ga.) but pullout not so ok. A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Hey guys, a quick follow up. 20ga or 25ga steel? I'm going to go this route, and am leaning toward 20 unless you think it really don't matter. With a 3 5/8 metal stud, I'm only going to have about 2" of purchase on the wood studs at the bottom of the run (remember it's out 2" over 13 feet).
I'm going to block for cabs. Good idea. Don't want the metal holding them up considering how they're being applied. _____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
25 ga you can cut with snips easy. 20, you can, but the snips better be good, cut both legs, bend, cut to the middle. Or use an abrasive blade in a chop saw or a portaband and cut bundled together.
Either ga. is ok. With the blocking and sheetrock, solid for cab mounting. I think if price diff is important and/or working with 'em, I'd be satisfied with 25. You want a bit more "rigid feel" go 20.
A tip on blocking. Keep all studs facing same direction. Cut blocks to length. Make a saw kerf in the face of the blocking so the curled edge of the stud nestles in that groove. Or, you can clip the curled edge and flatten so it doesn't interfere with the block. Screw butt end in first, then through face of stud at other end. Use wide enough blocking and put in so you hit it during installation of cabs.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
I figgered 20 would be hard to cut. was thinking my grinder and a metal cutting blade, but I'm due for some new snips anyway. good rec on the blocking, thanks. I'll probably have almost an inch to work on the highest blocks, so should be able to get some solid 1X stock in there._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
HB, On the blocking, in commercial we would generally use 2x and lay it on edge-i.e- a 2x6 block would allow 5-1/2'' of blocking surface to hit, and 1-1/2'' of blocking thickness. We also used 3/4 ply on occasion but screwing into the end grain wasn't as easy or successful.
For the sheetrock if you go 20ga. mtl, use tapping screws. 25 ga need point only for metal.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
that's what I thought you meant. I think as we get to the base cabinet blocking, I may have to use old "real" 2X stock to pad out far enough to catch the edge of the metal stud face. I have some good solid 1X stock kicking around for the upper cab blocking, and will give that a try rather than the ply for the reason you mention.
good reminder on the screws. will have to have some around for the blue board install, too, now that you mention.
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Edited 1/5/2006 10:39 am ET by homebaseboston
Why not just use straight 2x4's along side the old ones use and be done with it. Just make a small notch naround the wires. You'll have to do that with metal studs also. I think it's a waste of time to put metal studs in and then go back and block everything out.Joe Carola
Fair question, Joe. It's two things. First is that I don't think I can find a straight 16' 2X4 around here and the metal will be dead straight. Second is that I want as much of the stud pocket as possible to be insulated. Am using icynene, and figure it's worth a bit of extra effort._____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
"First is that I don't think I can find a straight 16' 2X4 around here and the metal will be dead straight."Your walls are 16' high?I thought that they were around 8' high and I was talking about nailing 8' studs along side your existing studs. Even if the walls are 16' high, I would use studs and use a string at the top, bottom and middle to get the wall straight. But if you want more insulation than use metal.Joe Carola
i have to admit i'm no framer, but almost 2 inches in 13 feet seems like a h*ll of a lot!!
first thing i would do is investigate the cause and correct or halt the deterioration
personally i would face the studs with tapered 2x material, not an easy job doing all those long tapers though. Id start with a 12 foot 2/12 and cut one piece tapered all the way down using a straight edge of some kind to guide the saw. the second piece can be cut on a tablsaw using the uncut edge against the fence then another tapered piece etc etc
cutting a long taper with a skillsaw is not that difficult and accuracy can be achieved with a little practice
Your right about finding out why the wall is so far out. The problem with ripping the 2x's is that it's not as accurate because you're going to be ripping every stud different and trying to nail them on the existing studs that are probably all different with crowns in or out. If he nails one stud at each end along side the existing studs plumb, then he can string a line at the top, bottom and center and just slide all new straight studs along side the existing studs and up to the lines and nail them in. This way is fast accurate and you do not need one shim.Joe Carola
yes i realized that, but he did have insulation and utility issues, and both are pertinent
in reality, in a kitchen area very few full height studs actually exist, ther is probably at least one window, a door, and plenty of plumbing
and the cause is a big issue, a hundred year old house that hasnt moved in 90 years is no big deal, a two year old house? now thats a big deal!!
Steve, it looks that way too! Very old house, and settled in a few diff places over the years. I have installed new lally columns with new footings (the old lallys were driven into the ground!), and replaced rotted sills with new 6X6 beams. I'm re-fastening the sheathing and may even do a layer of 3/4 ply on the gable ends to help prevent furthe racking. The bearing walls basically look like this. (well, that's probably 6" in 13 feet!! :-)
Anyway, that's the best I can do at this point. Would love to have jacked the place, but it wasn't in the cards.
The house racked for several reasons. One is lack of support under the load bearing walls, and the second is a "tug" from the main house that was battling rotted, below grade sills for many years. Also some freakin' eegit cut the knee braces many moons ago to install air ducts!
Framer is right about all studs being different. Not just crowned, but a lot are diff. thickness and many taper multiple times in the 13' run from sill to top.
To be honest, I'm wondering now if it's worth doing anything other than flattening/shimming the walls at this point. As bad as it is, over the height of a hanging cabinet, I'm only looking at furring it out a 1/2 inch at the bottom. Filler strip at the bottom and a scribed panel on the side... may be the best compromise in the end. Or at least one I can live with.
You guys have seen more of these compromises than me. What do you think?
Might almost look sillier to have one plumb wall in a narrow room where both of the long walls are out.
I'll attach some pics later today. I have to clean up prior to insulation anyway and can snap some photos to show what I mean
Brian_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
You guys have seen more of these compromises than me. What do you think?
Might almost look sillier to have one plumb wall in a narrow room where both of the long walls are out.
Thats a good observation Homebase!
Welcome to the remodeler's dilemma.
blue
Thanks Blue! Was wonder if you would happen by this way.
Steve, I'm leaning your way on this. Joe, I think the pics might answer your ques once I get them up. I've got all the materials (in this case was going to go with 20ga metal studs) to scab and plumb, but as I looked at all the wires, scabbed studs, blocking, etc I was going to have to cut around... holy heavenly jayzus. I think shimming the cabinets is the easier path.
Whether it's the best compromise... I just haven't done enough to know. I was remodeling full time for a few years before I started the construction recruiting thing, but I've never dealt with cathedral height walls before so don't really have a sense of how it will all look plastered.
Pics might help. Gimme a few hours to clean up and I'll be back.
Brian_____________________________HomeBase______________ LLC
okay you answered some of my questions, very old house gone under some major resupport work
sister the studs with new wood, notch for utilities as required, afterall they are not structural or:
install the cabinets on the existing wall using extra trim and finished end panels as required
personally i wouldnt bother with sistering the studs, install the cabinets plumb and level and use panels on the ends of the cabinet runs scribed to the wall and floor
order extra or oversized panels from your cabinet guy to suit including wide toekick afterall the floor is probably in the same condition
Why would you not want a straight wall for cabinets and have to use shim after shim afetr shim to install cabinets?Joe Carola
sure a straight plumb level room is nice to work in, but shimming and scribing is not a big deal for a pro type installlation
take for example a 30 inch high upper cabinet, shimmed maybe 1/4 inch from the wall top or bottom, so what if you have a scribe panel for the end?
or worst case scenerio, a 96 high pantry off the wall by an inch at the top or bottom
an oversized end panel, scribed to the wall and or floor is no big deal, i do it everyday
"but shimming and scribing is not a big deal for a pro type installlation"I agree. But why do all that if you don't have too?
Joe Carola
shimming and scribing is easy and you dont have to worry about moving/changing window/door trim, electrical, plumbing, baseboard etc etc
to be honest though, if it were my kitchen, i'd put in a new top plate or bottom plate and sister the studs, or cut tapered pieces to face out the old ones depending on the utilities situation` of course that requires new tapered window and door trim, maybe electrical alterations etc etc
in general though, i shim as necessary and then use end panels scribed as required, and a s a last resort some kind of usually tacky "scribe trim"
Steve,One house that I worked on about ten years ago where I had to install the kitchen the wall was so bad that they had old window openings that were framed in a million different directions and the walls were in and out that I could not even sister 2x's next to them so I built a wall in front of the old wall. Loosing the 4" did not matter because the kitchen was pretty big and it did not affect anything else.Joe Carola
been there too and thats a pretty extreme example, i installed a kitchen some years ago where the gable on the end cabinet had to be 1 1/2 inches longer to meet the floor
my point is that a good installer can accomadate a lot if situations given the right materials like oversized end panels and toekick and not worry about the walls or floor
"my point is that a good installer can accomadate a lot if situations given the right materials like oversized end panels and toekick and not worry about the walls or floor"I here you. I do a lot of additions and remodeling and tying into an existing home sometimes is a nightmare especially trying to blend in the new rafters that will be cathedral to match the existing sagging rafters and match the new ceilings with the existing out of level ceilings and new plumb walls that have to be continuos with an existing put of plumb wall. It's like any trade we have to be able adjust to the situation we are dealt with.Joe Carola