I have a simple layout problem that needs help. After starting my layout on closed
stringers, the leading edge of the tread pencil line on the first mark is 2 1/2 ” from
the edge of the stringer timber. Three treads down it grows and the pencil mark is
1 1/4 ” from the top edge of the stringers. The stringer has very little crown, the rise
and run pencil marks are square. I might of had the body & tounge of square
accidentally reversed ? Or could it be another problem ?
Thank You
Replies
Got a pic of what your saying?
Are you using stair gauges, if so is one slipping?
Mostly just trying to bump you for someone else.
October 17th, 2009
Jeremy and Lisa
Was there ever any doubt?
My Stair Gauges are not slipping. I will use vise grips instead of gauges, to keep the
square intact just in case. Without being on site, I think the problem could be the
tounge of the square could be positioned on the tread position instead of the riser.
Let me know if you think this, or something else is the problem.
Thank You
It makes no difference about the tongue or body..the gages read off the outside of the sq.
I can't think what would be the problem, but I swear I've had it myself once, long ago. Brain fade as to why.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
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Measure the distance along the edge of the stringer and step this amount off so you know you're starting at the exact spot each time.
Better yet, use the pythageorean theorem. If your rise is 7-1/2" and your run is 10", you have exactly 12.5" between treads when measured parallel to the pitch of the stairs.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
So you are saying to mark that out (like 12 1/2, 25, 37 1/2) hooked on the end and use those marks to better line up the stair gauge or what? If so thats a nice tip no one ever showed me that, could be why I struggle sometimes.
How about a better way to make all the stringers come out perfectly the same, other than a pattern and trace? I can get real close the first time but the little differences here and there bug me, and try and fix them usually just gets worse.
As already stated use the CM calculator to find the diagonal hit +, then =,=,= etc & mark as you go resulting in no cumulative error. draw your lines in with the square. If you are right handed have the tread line on your left so you can see the line better when you cut.I felt this was the fastest way to layout & cut stringers until I saw Jed Dixion at the Seattle JLC show last weekend. He laid out the tic marks on the edge of the board, set the slider chopsaw to the angle off the CM. Cut one, made a mark on the fence where the kerf would land for the next cut and just went down the line. Swung the saw to the comp angle & worked it back the other way. Took about 1/2 the time my way did.It was a moments were as soon as you saw it you just can't believe you didn't think of it yourself.
Tell me about it! Yes, its aggravating. First, you start with 2x12s that are close to, but not really, straight. Then you notch them, and see what happens! I've had a stringer take on a bend that was 2" out-of-straight after cutting!In the last couple of decades, it has gradually become common practice to use LVLs for stringers on long, wide, or important stairs. Talk about peace of mind -- they start straight, stay straight, pay for themselves in labor saved, and provide for predictable bidding.That said, I always have a stock of coffee stirrers and tongue depressors right at hand, ready to make my finished product look perfect, just as if I really knew what I was doing.Aitchay AitchKay
"So you are saying to mark that out (like 12 1/2, 25, 37 1/2) hooked on the end and use those marks to better line up the stair gauge or what?"Yes. I don't bother if I'm laying out a stringer for a deck or something like that, but if you have to start AND stop your stairs at fixed points, I like to mare the unit rise so I don't get accumulated error.I had ACAD open so I made a quick drawing which is attached.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Thanks thats one of those things that makes so much sense its like why didnt I think of that before. Guess no one else around me ever knew it either, I learn more form here than from anybody I work around, kind of sad really, Ive been teaching myself for a few years now. Thanks to ALL
Are those stairs in Australia? Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
Yep, but I imported them just for you.View Image
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Thanks, mate. Now you see this one-eyed midget
Shouting the word "NOW"
And you say, "For what reason?"
And he says, "How?"
And you say, "What does this mean?"
And he screams back, "You're a cow
Give me some milk
Or else go home"
Here is what I do in layout for stringers. Using your diagram in response 29, I draw a right angle line from the edge of the stock to the intersection of the tread and riser (heel) to create two triangles. I then stand all the stringers together and square across all of them at the point created by the new right angle line at the edge of the stringer. I then can draw right angles to those marks on the face of the stock letting them run slightly longer than the length of the right angle line. Using a framing square with stair gauges attached I slide the square along the stock until the heel of the square contacts the line. Then just mark out the riser and tread. I do it this way for several reasons, chief of which are my eyesight is not what it used to be when I was younger and it is easier to line up the heel of the square with the line and also I do not like to trace stringers.
To make the stringers the same try culling them on top of each other. If you don't have any specialty saws then just clamp 2 of them together and cut. As long as your saw is square then they will be good.
Now I have clamped 3 together and used my beam cutter to get them all exact.
But before I had that, I did as above. Saves a lot of time, you don't have to mark and stringers except the first.
Circ saw only cuts to 2 1/4 depth or something like that I would still be at the mercy of repeatly cutting the same time everytime. Basicly the saw would "score" the one below it 3/4 " maybe thats what you mean, I think it would produce more accuacy I may try it.
Thing that sucks is Ill probably be months before I get to do it again, being as we do complete start to finish and I just put stairs in this house last week. THANKS
you said-- "How about a better way to make all the stringers come out perfectly the same, other than a pattern and trace?"I make the pattern on a scrap of 1/2" plywood instead of the first stringer. I saw a framer do that a long time ago and I've never gone back______________________________________________
--> measure once / scribble several lines / spend some time figuring out wich scribble / cut the wrong line / get mad
Ive considered that and will probably try that next time. Thanks a piece of plywood is a little easier to toss out than a 2x12 or lvl huh?
marking off the diagonals on the edge with a CM, then using a sliding chopsaw to cut with the mark on the saw stand I feel is hard to beat. Both from a speed & accuracy point of view.
Thanks I can see that would be accurate but dont think I have that good of a stand to do that. Have a dewalt stand and dont think its that great, Im thinkin it would take up time to slide it and perfectly line up the cuts for say 14 or so treads turn the saw and 13 risers, see what I mean?
Ive been wrong before i guess, I like your idea in theory though, tell me any tricks.
danno7x,I used to have a Dewalt stand, it was OK & will work for this, but the Sawhelper works better. Try one- draw the stringer like you would normaly do. place on the chopsaw with the points facing the back fence of the saw. Make one cut, slide the board down to the next cut, mark the fence of the saw where the first cut is. Make the second cut, slide board down to mark- it will line up right on the point to make the next cut.Therefore all the info you need is right on the CM.Enter rise & run, hit Dia then +, then =,=,=, etc
Make those marks on the EDGE of the board against the back of the saw fence.
Hit Pitch & you will get the angle.
Set the miter & make all the tread cuts
Swing the saw to the comp angle & using the edge of the kerf as your guide- with out any extra measuring make all the riser cuts.Very fast, easy & accurate. Once you understand how to do one, you can now cut in almost the amount of time it takes to draw one out.
I use a piece of 1x12 (or the same dimension as the intended stringer) instead of plywood since the stringers are usually over 8'long. A piece of preprimed 1 x 12 is easy to handle and you can write notes that are easy to read. It makes a perfect template.JMHO
Is your square.... square?
I've seen more then one, that wasn't.
Edited 11/18/2008 7:33 pm ET by sledgehammer
stokle, I'm having a hard time envisioning your situation. Could you post a picture of the stringer and the square?
If not, are your gauges registering on the top of the stringer? I can't understand where this 2-1/2 and 1-1/4'' are.
thanks.
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Relative stair novice here, but jon blakemore's advice is what I was going to give.
Figure the diagonal for the rise and run of each step. then, if you have a constr calc, add that to itself and 'paper tape' it by hitting = and = and = to give your reference marks down the length of the stringer, measuring from only the end of the stringer, not from step to step.
Perhaps you already know what I'm talking about...
Ditto. That way, discrepancies will not multiply. I used to lay this out physically, with a great big set of dividers that my grandfather used back around 1900. But it would take several tries to get the total of the individual diagonals to add up close enough to the overall diagonal. Now, I calculate the overall stringer length, just as I used to, and divide it into the number of rises with a calculator, letting the calculator give me the running total. Even if I use a standard calculator, and round off the decimals to the nearest fraction of an inch, the calculator will give me the exact location of the next rise, and I'll be back on track. Tick off those diagonals at the edge of the stringer, and only then hold your square up to it. I've got a few sets of stair gauges lying around, but with my current system, it doesn't make sense to use them.In the old days, using the step-off technique, the value of the gauges was that every set of marks would be consistent. That's a good thing. But in practice, the overall diagonal would end up growing or shrinking a bit, and, to make everything fit, the treads would end up out of level just a touch -- if the layout is close, you just align the top and bottom with existing levels, and fake it.That's rarely a problem, since even if you're 1/4" off in your overall stringer length, you'll only be about 1/32" out-of-level per tread.My theory is to shoot for perfect, knowing that I won't make it. But that way I'll only have a 1/16" or so variation (max) between all of the rises, and everything will be level.Aitchkay
Couple years ago I went to the JLC show in Seattle. Rick Arnold had a guy lay out some stringers just by moving the square with stair gauges.
The he marked off the stringer with adding the diagonals.
The first layout was about 3/4 long.
Learned a lot at that show.
Wow. It adds up, doesn't it?Aitchkay
You lost me why not use the gauges? You holding the square at out diagonal marks then trying to hold it and trace it? I dont get it
Absolutely nothing wrong with using the gauges! It's just that the overall consistency of the diagonal measurements is far superior to the incremental consistency of the gauges -- (check out Water’s post # 11 on this thread).So once I have all of my diagonal tick marks made, I've found that it's quicker to just hold my square to the marks, using my fingers as a guide. But the gauges would work fine, too.If you really want to tweak, snap a chalk line 3/8"- 1/2" in from the edge of your LVL, strike your diagonal measurements on that line, then hold your square to those marks. Gauges would just pull you off of your straight line in that situation.AitchKay
I find it easier to just calculate everything out --
I might be misreading you but honestly you shouldn't even be marking your riser with the square in the layout phase... at least I dont. just a tread location should be sufficient right now as you can adjust the depth anyway you ever need to without causing any problems. the only truly important consistency is tread height/equality.
but again, I may be misunderstanding your question.
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete Draganic
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Couple of things.
1) Are you by chance not using the heel of the square when you make your marks but rather independently marking the run using the blade and the rise using the tongue after sliding the square into place each time?
2) Have you snapped a line to check the actual straightness of the edge of the stock?