I’m considering using SIPs over timber frame trusses. What’s the largest span possible with the strongest SIPs? How are they applied?
Thanks
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R-control has all that info available on their website. You may have to request a password to access it but it's not a big deal.
Found it. Thanks, Tom.
What's the largest span possible with the strongest SIPs? How are they applied?
That's a little like asking what's the longest span of truss. The SIP's will be engineered for your application. Within the SIP, as needed, are wood I-joists, solid wood, LVL's or whatever. If it's a long span they simply add more joists within the pannel.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
That's a little like asking what's the longest span of truss. The SIP's will be engineered for your application. Within the SIP, as needed, are wood I-joists, solid wood, LVL's or whatever. If it's a long span they simply add more joists within the pannel.
Ah see...I didn't know that they were made to order. I just assumed that, like most building materials, the manufacturers made the panels to fit a standard application.
Thanks Don,
That's good news for me. I like to have options when it comes to structure that's visible, like some large timber trusses.
Hudson Valley carpenter.
Welcome to my world! My timberframe has SIP's (from R control) I spaced mine every 4 feet because I liked the look and timbers are so cheap.. Max that I remember is 10 feet unsupported.. On the other hand, I cantalevered a panel using nothing but great stuff (the spray foam and walked out to the end of a 12 foot SIP and didn't notice any flexing.. the things are stiff I mean really stiff..
I like the four foot spacing too but it's nice to know that there are many options. I might prefer to build some large scale timber trusses and put them on six foot centers. Gotz to vigualize it for a while...
Thanks for giving me your impressions of SIPs. It's not easy to appreciate their strength without being around them, considering that the raw material is mostly styrofoam.
Hudson Valley Carpenter,
Let me provide a little hint about building with SIP's. All of the instructions assume a freestanding SIP (why not, they are approxiamately 200% stronger than a well built Stick built house) If you are going to attach them to a timber you have options never considered by the manufactures. For example a 10 foot tall oak 6x6 has the ability to carry 10 tons in vertical load (maybe it's 20 tons I forget but it's massive) attach a SIP to that timber and strength becomes monumental..
Anyway the assembly instruction have you putting the panels vertical which means to get a tight seal between panels you must figure out a way to clamp them together. (a time consuming process.) however if you put the panels vertical the weight of the panel on top will press the panels together in a far better fashion and provides an infinately superior seal..
you do lose a tiny amount of strength orienting OSB horizontal rather than vertical but the timbers provide back ten thousand times more than you lose. Ease of assembly and superior seal caused me to abandon the listed way of assembly in favor of horizontal panels midway thru the build of my house.. I'll bet that change alone saved me 100 manhours or more!
Having said that if I were starting over knowing then what I know now I'd build with ICF's right up to the top plate then put SIP's on the roof. I suspect the final cost for materials would be similar but the man hours required to do it would be cut in half..
ICF's still offer the advantage of putting windows wherever strikes your fancy just prior to the concrete pour. So you could stand on the deck and decide what views you'd like rather than have someone else tell you where your windows should be..
I know that I would pay for three 1/2 days with a pump truck but the comfort level of pumping only one level at a time would offset the added cost. Around here I can get a pump truck for $500.00 for a 1/2 day so the only added cost would be $500.00 since if I did it in one pour it would most likely take a full day to pump..
The way I would do it would be to put the foundation in for the first pour. then build my timbers and tie them into the ICF walls, pour the 1st floor and then put the deck on and use that to make the second floor pour..
If you don't get clever like I did cutting the forms apart to form them into a 8 1/2 foot radius by the time you do the third pour you'll be positively cocky..
Frenchy,
Thanks for your insightful descriptions. What I'm considering for my next house is a combination of certain methods and materials, something like what you did but on a much smaller scale, adding some PAHS technology as another worthwhile experiment.
I agree that using ICFs for all exposed exterior walls makes excellent sense, and that SIPs offer some wonderful options for timber framed truss roofs/ceilings, without wasting energy.
That's a nutshell of the most important new things I've learned from asking questions here, these last few months, and receiving many fine answers from generous guys like you.
It's taken me a while to detach my mind and sentiments from traditional stick building, mainly because I love framing with wood. But adding some big timber trusses to my next home should remove some of the peculiar feeling I get from stacking up ICFs.
Hudson Valley Carpenter,
The joy you feel assembling some 2x4's into a home is nothing compared to the pride you feel as you plane a timber into perfection and bring out the beauty of wood. Slide the tenon of that timber into a well made mortise and hear that satisfying thunk as it hit's home deadnuts right on, (or sweetening the two timbers so that the slight misalignment disappears) is such a pleasure.. It's far from the almost assembly line efficiency of modern stick framing. Where you need to work at a frantic pace in order to maintain profitability and maybe if you are lucky pause for a moment as you leave the jobsite for the last time prior to turning it over to all the other trades to look back at what you did..
Frankly I love wading knee dead in wood shavings and knowing that the end result will be the impressive sight of massive strength of timbers. A home built that way provides a comfort that no stick built home ever will.
No wonder those with discretionary income seek out timberframes and are willing to pay a premium for them.
They don't need to know the pleasure we get from building them makes it such a joy to do, and they don't need to know that the cost of timbers is less than the cost of 2x4's
Let them think that the house is massively more expensive to build than it is, makes it more profitable, right?
Frenchy,
I'm glad you're getting so much happiness from your work. It's certainly an impressive house which shows a lot of strong character traits in it's builder. I truly appreciate you sharing your enthusiasm for that style of building with me. It's infectious and helpful in moving my own plans along.
Remember that, for a career carpenter, wood is his medium and structure is his form of expression. Although many development homes today are basic assembly work, it takes real knowledge, experience and skill to build a custom stick home.
I've worked on timber frame houses too, one of my own design. It's true that there's a unique feeling of communion with such places, both during and after the building process. That's an added bonus which comes from making the wood a visible expression of the tree's life and one's own creative nature, joined in a common aim and purpose.
I lived, for many years, in a small cabin which I built with simple hand tools, no electricity. It was made of dimensional lumber and plywood, paid for week by week from my carpenter's wages. At the time it was only meant to be temporary, something I could take down easily and reuse. Still I built it carefully, with great joy that I was creating my first real home.
Living in that little cabin taught me a lot about creating one's own environment, being self contained. It's surprisingly empowering to live inside one's own creation, whether it's a house or a personal philosophy, or both.
Best wishes, Peter
Edited 6/15/2007 7:26 pm ET by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Hudson Valley carpenter,
I hope you don't think that I minimize the creatively of carpenters in any way.. even those who do production framing create their own little tricks and short cuts to beat father time.
I've seen custom builders here, this lake has mainly custom built homes but often the owners seem determined to "best" the builder. Demanding ever greater concessions from those who build.. Instead of let's create something unique and worthwhile, too often it's how much can I get for how little. (and how fast)..
These wonderfully creative talented and hard working guys are forced to work for hourly wages with deadlines established! Honestly it's not unusual for custom builders to be beaten down to around $100.00 a sq.ft. for some really elaborate custom building..
My neighbor for example is finishing his garage and forced the contractor to work for hourly wages to a deadline.. He's desperate enough to be willing to do that because so many builders have no work. The contractor designed the work spec'd the materials and still doesn't get paid anything because the owner wound up buying everything himself.. using surplus windows, cabinets, etc.. He brags to me that he saved over $3000.00 in the process (not mentioning that he replaced custom made Pella windows with cheap vinyl) or instead of custom milled timber trim he's using hardie plank cut in the shape used for the timber trim on the house. Those who are building now have that sort of option and instead oftreating contractors fairly seemed determined to beat each down .