Hi all
When looking at a job whether it be a small remodel / addition or a custom home, do you guys estimate or WAG the specialty trades before you have a signed contract and hope you are close on the costs?
Or do you talk to your tradesman and get a quote from them first and include there costs in your bid?
Reason i ask; I normally do smaller remodeles and additions and have gotten pretty good at knowing where my sub costs are going to be and can quote the home owner a price based on previos job costs and current conversations with my subs about a particuler project.
Well i was recently asked by a couple that was refered to me by a previous remodel client to give them a price on a custom home. the lot they have is sloped and will need some hi wall foundation work.
I would never guess at costs for excavation and concrete and i dont have any previous job costs for such a project….So i call a few excavation and concrete contractors and when asked if i had the job sold ( i think they all asked?) i was honest and told them where i stood with the couple (that it was being priced out and the job wasnt at contract) and nobody wants to deal with a job that might not get built- I Dont Blame Them One Bit- I dont like wasting anybodys time.
So please give me your opinions.
Is it common to price a job out with subs before you are at contract?
Or do u sell the job first and hope and pray your costs are on?
Sorry so long just tryin to give as much info as possible.
Replies
Good subs will quote to good contractors at bid time. Period.
Thanks for the reply Gene
Any other thoughts
Got to go away for a bit will check in later.
Good subs should at least be able to give you some idea of pricing. It's always tough because you never can foresee the problems like a tradesman can.Bear
I agree and usualy isnt a problem getting quotes from most subs. now if i could find a small shop drywaller that would do his own takeoff from the blueprints.
I was just talking to a GC about this today. Its best to understand how much your subs will cost before your bid. When the possible subs bid to you, you know about where they will be. The benefit of this is that if you want a quality sub rather than a in and out guy, you can afford him when its his time to work.
The finish carpenter and the painter sell your work... presentation is everything. By the time the job is in this stage many GCs are out of money. The GC either tries to shaft them, or ends up with a lousy job.
If you can build the price in everyone will be happy, and you will have a great product. A few thousand here or there isnt going to change the sq ft total estimate that much.
-zen
For the smaller remodel stuff I always use my own numbers. There's no way I can drag subs in to look at the little jobs, and there's not really any way I can even justify spending time on those field trips myself, so I do my own estimating and I'm fairly accurate.
Your problem is likely that you are calling the bigger-name guys who are established and busy, when what you need is smaller outfit or a sole prop who is newer to the game and eager to get established. Call back some of those guys who said no and ask them for a referral to a smaller guy. No way you can build a house without good firm bids from several subs, probably about 10 different trades.
I had problems finding an excavator when I did a bunch of digging on my own place. The first four guys... not even a call back. Then someone mentioned a guy who had left his job as a mechanic and bought his own machine, and sure enough, he called me back, came and looked, scheduled the job, did the work, and got paid. Now, of course, he's the guy I would call for more. You need guys like that and it takes a lot of calls and asking around to find them.
David,
I agree about dragging subs to look at smaller jobs unless its some goofy thing that i dont feel comfortable estimating.
Your problem is likely that you are calling the bigger-name guys who are established and busy, when what you need is smaller outfit or a sole prop who is newer to the game and eager to get established. Call back some of those guys who said no and ask them for a referral to a smaller guy. No way you can build a house without good firm bids from several subs, probably about 10 different trades
I think you are correct and i have a smaller excavating guy that is great to work with (runs his own equip. and all) but this job is going to require somebody that is set up with larger equipment.( but maybe that doesnt mean bigger business) and yes just about everybody in the valley is busy going into the summer months.
I guess the main reason i ask these questions is that i have ran into this in the past with alot of various subs big and little and just wasnt sure if i was doing this G.C. thing backwards on a much bigger project than i normally take on.
If the job is not something that we have done before, I would get a quote. I tell the sub that I want a number that he will be comfortable with but that if something unforeseen comes up, I will pay whatever it costs.
We use the same stable of subs for almost all our work. Of course they will do what it takes to give us a quote. You are trying to find someone new and that puts you in a tough spot. The subs will not respond to you the way they do to their regular customers. My advice is to find the best guy and convince him that you are serious about giving him the work. You maybe should offer to pay him for his time. He probably won't accept but it will show him you are serious. Good luck.
Thanks Zendo and Shellingm
Guess i just need to keep looking for some guys that are willing to work with me. these guys were recomended by some aquaintances and didnt want to throw a dart will ask around some more for recomendations.
i will not bid a job without prices from my subs...
excavation.... foundation....elec... plbg...plaster... tile ......painting...
sometimes i will estimate the materials.. but not often... usually i want a quote on that too..
that leaves the rest for our in-house labor.. and i'm free to screw that pooch all by myselfMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,Out of curiousity, what percentage of leads do you close?
Jon Blakemore
just a guess:
the phone calls that survive my screening that i actually go out and meet the people and discuss their project
of those.. i'd say a quarter of those turn out to be something i pass on
a quarter .. they never call back for a second meeting
3/4 of the remainder end up hiring us for something
sounds like 38 % - 40% in my fantasy based system of keeping track of these things
those include all of the cold calls... people i have never met before..
the closing approaches 90% when they come to me as a referral or we've done business before
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If it makes you feel any better, you're far from alone. We all encounter things that are out of the range of typical. It depends on each case, but I can give you a couple of examples of things I might do with that scenario. - Joe wants a basement finish. I look at the job (eyeballs on is a good thing) and discuss what he wants. That trip is free. I'm gauging his level of seriousness and my level of interest. If this job is a fit for what I do, I tell Joe, who unfortunately has NO concept of what things cost, I can figure a resonable ballpark of what your project is going to run. This isn't even an estimate, it's not a bid. Its a ballpark based on a set of unrefined assumptions.
Why in the world would I do that? Its a litmus test and it takes me ten minutes. If I tell Joe he's looking at around $50K and he can't stand parting with more than $20K, I've burned a minimum of time. I haven't wasted my subs time. I haven't drawn, had drawn, or faxed out prints, done takeoffs etc. And I set the stage ahead of time that this is just a "guesstimate". If Joe says yeah, that doesn't surprise me, then we start working on the contract and refining details. I don't go to subs for a bid until I can give them sufficient details for them to know what they're bidding on. And I don't give Joe a final price until I have all the bids in.
But lets say I have no idea what the trade is going to charge me. I'm doing a job now that involves more than doubling the existing septic system. Never dealt with it before. At the outset, it was a phonecall bid, nothing more. "Yeah, Steve, I got your name from my plumber, yada yada here's the relevant details. What am I looking at?" He's doing the same thing I do. Ballpark, I'll go look at it and give you a firm price when you know it's in the bag. So I tell Joe septic is about $5K and he'll come look at it next week if you like.
But now I've got all the grading to deal with, and the hydroseeding. I tried the phone call. I really dont want to waste their time, but they wont quote without looking, and hey, the job has started. It'll be another two weeks before they can see how much yard got torn up. That's not in the contract as something I'm doing. We're discussing it as things progress. I know it. The homeowner knows it. It will be a change order, out of necessity.
I think the important thing in the last one is communication. There's a number of things that can and will change about 5 minutes after the job starts and all of the best plans in the world come face to face with reality. You have to include in your own figures an amount of CYA for the little things that you're going to just deal with as they come, and you have to spell out those things which are specifically not covered . . . yet.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Nice.
I think thats a solid system.
-zen