Hey y’all,
Do y’all GC’s/Builders have your subs sign a basic contract outlining everyone’s responsibilities? I’m trying to get in the habit of doing it myself but have come up against a fair amount of resistance. I’m in Western NC and had a drywall subcontractor, that I’ve never used before, just this morning call the contract I sent over to him last week “childish
“.&
#160; I was so p’od I hung up on him. Problem is he’s the guy I need to do the job because his price is $1,000’s less than his competitors(it’s a large complicated job). The main reason I wanted it signed was to lock in his price. I don’t think he found fault with the contract amount because I’ve given him several opportunities to review it and re-submit if he thought it was necessary. When I calmed down enough to call him back he complained about things like his guys having to pick up their personal trash at the end of the day(i.e. bottles, etc.) I also asked in it for him to throw 2nd floor scraps into the dumpster that is parked directly beneath the door he has to come out of anyway. His proposal said that he would just pile it up outside. Why should I pay someone to handle the scrap twice when the dumpster is RIGHT THERE outside the door? He says he’s done business on a handshake for 30 years and never has had a problem which is great until something happens on my job and puts me out of business and puts my families livelihood in jeopardy. One other time recently I had a siding contractor who also refused to sign a contract after going through the whole bidding process and all. I gave that job to someone else. I know the obvious thing to do is to use only subs that will sign but I’m fraid in this area there are more who won’t than will.
I just sat through a training last week about construction contracts and there’s an article in JLC this month about who’s responsible if a subcontractor screws up or get’s hurt.
What are y’all doing to protect yourselves?
Replies
I'm pretty much a hand shake kind of a guy.
I know that's not real condusive to being a huge "contractor" and making dumpsters full of money. But I've done that already and I like my way better.
One thing that I do know from doing both sides is that my terms and parameters are set. I don't sub too much anymore but if I do you better do it right and within the guidlines that I set.I also understand that I have a job to do as a contractor . I wouldn't let anyone run my jobs because they do it different somewhere else, - then go work there. At the same time I pick my battles.
In the end, if I've got the dumpster there, and I want the trash in it then it damn well better be in it.
But.
If I can save $1000 dollars and go there for 4 hours after they are done ( and it doesn't impact the HO or the neighbors) I am more than happy to make $250 / hr.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Well that's pretty pragmatic.
Perhaps this is a glass city thing. We find good subs, explain our "policy" and then pay promptly. All done on a handshake.
Simple yet elegant.
I feel for the small contractor that has to document every thing in order to keep some semblance of order and production.
or, some of us are just plain damn lucky.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Probably just lucky.
I don't have the desire to deal with BS no more.
Make just a little hard on me and I'll do it myself - less BS. I'll deal with the fallout later. ( the time I completely finished off a heating system on a large addition and told the inspector that it was vandals) - good story.
And a good stable of good people.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Good to know I'm not alone.A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
In the case of your sheetrocker ... negotiate. If his work is good, and his price is good, and he shows on time, etc, the line through the parts he doesn't like, both parties initial, and get to work. If all he complains about is trash and scraps, let it go. But I assume the rest of the contract covers quality of work, liability insurance, etc.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I'm down here in Chapel Hill and I also have tried half heartedly to get folks to sign paperwork clearly explaining what is in the scope of work and what price is to be paid. I've attached the document I use. Pretty much I just go over it IN PERSON with the sub at the beginning of the job and keep it on file as a memo of understanding in case something comes up later.
The way I put it is "I have a standard subcontractor agreement that all my trades sign when they star working with me that lays out the basic expectations we run the site by around here. I'll bring it with me when you show up the first day just so we know where we stand. I'll sign off on your quote and you can sign off on my sheet."
The lunch trash is the stuff the neighborhood dogs carry off into the woods, if they can pack a lunch and bring it to the job site they can pick up the trash and bring it back home at the end of the day. We do provide recycling for bottles. AND NOBODY LEAVES EMPTY BEER CANS ON THE JOB SITE.
For those who resist picking up their construction trash the answer is simple "How much extra would you charge to throw your scraps in the dumpster? $150 sound fair $200? no problem, write it in on the quote and lets talk about this detail on the other side of the house.
Teh folks I've been working with for years are still working with me because they know how we work. I really see no advantage in making them go back and sign this kind of a document.
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"We DON'T build them like they used to."
A question for you- Do you give the contract before they do the bidding or after you tell them they are the winning bid? It would seem to me that you should present it at the same time you give them plans and specs to bid off of so they fully understand your expectations. While you do that, walk through the contract and explain what is in there and why you want it and discuss these things with the sub before he gets to bidding.
If your contract is a reasonable one that does not have lots of fine print and multiple indemnification clauses, I believe most subs would not hesitate to sign it. At the same time, if it is 20 pages long with lots of legalese, I would probably hand it back and say no thanks.
In addition, if you are asking me to sign contracts with you and you make me competitively bid each project or shop my prices, I think I would lose interest as well. Lastly, I wonder what kind of payment terms you are putting in there-hopefully not pay when paid.
Just some thoughts
Bruce
I'm an engineer with a consulting firm, and we both work as sub-consultants to other firms as well as hire other firms to sub-consult to us, depending on the project. So, we're sort of in a different position but there are similarities.
We have long term relationships with a number of these companies and have been working with a lot of them on more or less a handshake basis, but our insurance company has been leaning on us to have contracts with them for liability reasons. It doesn't have to be a long, drawn out thing - just some sort of standard form that outlines the responsibilities of both parties, along with some verbage about holding each other harmless for mistakes or omissions, that sort of thing. The main point is to have something in place to protect both parties in the event there's an insurance claim or lawsuit.
You may want to bring that up with your subs - having a contract is as much for their benefit as it is yours.
I have done both ways, both as an owner, a GC. and a sub. .
Try for a very short , easy to understand contract. Shorter the better. What I realized is for a lot of the subs it was fear that they would miss something in the contract that would hurt them down the line.
I would allow the sub to determine whats it worth to pick up and dumpster his scraps, arrive at a dollar figure and then decide if thats acceptable to you. he didn't bid to dispose of the scrap it doesn't sound like.
That's it? Looks to be a one pager. Just addressing the agreement.
And your DW thought that was too much? I'd look for a more up to date sub.
Very common to have a 5-6 pager. We have one guy that has a 6 pager on a one load deal, T&M.
Centex's took 3 weeks to get past the insurance agent. And another guy with condos and a wrap acccount was worse than Centex.
We work for a lot of handshakes. But more and more the insurance is demanding (and getting) contracts.
I'd sign that while driving
I know Gerald would probably pi&& his pants, but I do most everything on a handshake too, except that I sometimes get their price in writing. More often than not, it's a unit cost, like in the case of DW it would X$ per board. With respect to DW, the trash is a big deal though. Each house I do produces a small dump truck of DW scraps, which my sub removes - it is part of the verbal agreement. I also often write up specs from which a bid is written, but again in the case of DW, there is really not much to it except the per board cost.
For example Friday I contracted a guy to seed and straw 2.5 acres and put up several hundred feet of silt fence, all at a unit price, and on a handshake. I had a piece of paper showing the acres, a copy of which I gave to the sub, and when he gave me the verbal price I wrote it on my copy, in the presents of the sub, so there shouldn't be any misunderstanding. The work will come to about $4k.
I have gotten burned on rare occasion, but if all my subs were working under specific contracts for each job, I'd also expect to pay significantly more for each job. When I say burned, more often than not, it is when I get charged extra for something that I think I should't. Same old shid though - ya gotta pick your battles.
OTOH, for example, I had a plumber that, although his prices were fairly reasonable, just couldn't give me a price ahead of time on anything. They did fairly good work, but between that and the fact that he didn't know how to use a calendar, I had to get rid of him.
PS - nobody comes on my job without first submitting a W-9 and having them have their ins co fax in a certificate of insurance.
Good Point, I as well.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
nobody comes on my job without first submitting a W-9 and having them have their ins co fax in a certificate of insurance
Matt, that is just childish bull$*&%.
Next thing you're gonna wanta do is 1099 me.
;-)
not enoogh to answer your question. stick with the contract idea. I am working towards being more formal. if people don't like the idea of covering your AZZ, then tell them can you call them when you get sued from the owner or another sub for financial support. you'll be all alone fast. I would love to do things on a handshake but them days are gone.
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
http://www.ingrainedwoodworking.com
I use a subcontract with every sub. It is actually to protect my insurance company, and they wrote it and require its use. The main thing in there (in their view) is the indemnification/hold harmless language. It has a brief section stating the minimum insurance coverages the subs need, and stating that they will make me an additional insured or not get paid. It also includes the sub's address and phone numbers, entity type, license number, EIN, and a certification that they are an independent entity and not an employee of mine.
Sometimes there is a clause stating that payment to me by owner is a condition precedent to payment of the sub. If their work is over about $10K then I use that.
Least important to me are the price and the scope of work. I usually state that in terms of T&M, rather than trying to define the complete scope and cost. Subs do not want to be committed to a number unless they think the scope will not creep on them.
Whether or not they throw away all their trash... I don't care. If they take the time to do that they will charge for it, and I generally have someone working for me who can do it. If I were building 30 houses per year from the office with no employees I would feel a lot different about that.