I’m working up an estimate for my first sub-flooring installation job, and could use some advice on materials.
The house is a turn-of-the-century building presently stripped to the studs and joists. We’ll be laying sub-flooring plywood on the joists, on top of which a flooring guy will install reclaimed heart of pine t&G.
What is the standard thickness for sub-flooring plywood in this situation? Obviously, the cheaper the material the better for the customer, but I want to do it right. Thanks for any advice.
Edited 4/10/2009 9:22 pm ET by GKHOMES
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When we used to throw up homes in the 70's, standard floor sheeting would be 5 ply 1/2'' plywood, glued and nailed with 8's. That would usually get 1/2'' particle bd laid over for carpet or sheet goods. 3/4 hardwood would get nailed direct. We left space between the sheets to combat squeeks.
Today, depending on the joist centers I would subfloor with 3/4 T&G plywood-glued and screwed or at least ring shank nails. Some here have mentioned Advantech or other premium OSB as good hardwood (or other wood flooring) underlay because of nail and staple holding power. Earlier, the Hardwood Association advised against regular OSB underlay.
By the way, the stuff you mention (OSB) is not recycled if that's what you're talking about. They grow for it or "harvest" forests to produce it.
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Thanks. That's good info.
would be a good sidebar in this subject for someone who has used both OSB regular and Advantec OSB subfloor materials to add some pompare notes. I went from Ply to Advantec and have never used any OSB for subfloor.Even been using Advantec for most of my sheathing on walls, but last year I had an econo situation where I knew it wouldn't get wet - about 12 sheets, so I use regular OSB to save them some bucks. I was shocked at how much lighter and floppy it was than the Advantec I was used to. I know a subfloor grade would be tighter bound, but just don't know myself. I have also heard that some wood flooring guys don't believe that the OSB holds nails as well.
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I'm also a big advantech fan.. I use 3/4 TG for floors, 5/8 TG for roofs, and 1/2 for walls. And the 1/2 advantech is much better than 7/16 OSB, no comparison IMO.I also like that for me at least its a local product, the Huber mill is a couple towns away.
How much is the 1/2" advantec? And... I assue it is square edge?
Yeah the 1/2 is square edged
Also I use the regular advantech, not huber's zips which I believe is 7/16.. I don't care for the flashing details without wrap involved, and its basically just osb with a coating.As far as the price goes, it comes at a premium to osb.. I think I payed somewhere around 13 per last time I bought, compared to about the same for zips and about 8 for osb.. this was a few months ago. As with any of the advantechs, i think you get what you pay for.
To be honest, I don't know if it's in use around here (advantech). I don't do any tear out to joist work to speak of.
I know that for several years OSB was frowned upon for hardwood base. The wood floor assoc and most installers said no. Because you really can't go over it for nailing base thickness due to ht. restrictions I think the nasty tearout pretty much "convinced" folks to leave it and nail to it.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvin, HD has a knockoff of advantech. Looks and feals like the same material.
What is the standard thickness for subflooring plywood? Can I use the stuff made from recyled chips? Obviously, the cheaper the material the better for me, but I want to do it right. Thanks for any advice.
I wouls ask to have whatever product they want installed specified in the RFQ (request fro quote)
I'm curious how "the cheaper the material the better for me" works out.
Could you explain that?
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cheapest is not best for you, because I can name a couple cheap ways to do it that would get by, but the callbacks for squeaks would mean no referrals for you.
Use a min 5/8" T&G Advantec or ply. I always use 3/4" That diff depends which way the flooring will run too. A reclaimed heart pine is one of the more expensive wood floors and it deserves a good base.
Sometimes in remo work like this t&G is not practical, depending on room sizes etc. We use blocking at the seams then - with glue on all joist to sublfoor surfaces.
My MO is T&G 3/4" Advantec. PL Premium const adhesive, and ring shank nails. My bet is that this being an older home, it had 3/4" or 7/8" subfloor previously so 3/4" will bring U back close to original elevations.
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Thanks. That sounds like good advice, too.
I have read your post and I felt obligated to ask you do you feel your are qualified enough to do this project? This is not meant as a personal attack, but your question presents significant gaps in fundamental understanding of framing that I could only wonder if you have had any training in construction.
I bring this up because you are about to create the bones of some owners building-a major asset. They are going to spend a large amount on expensive flooring but you seem to have no knowledge of what you need to do to create a sufficient subfloor for these new floors.
You may or may not be capable of banging the nails, but there is so much more to being a carpenter than banging nails. I suggest you find someone who you can work with and learn these fundamentals before striking out on your own.
BTW-Cheaper is rarely better for anyone.
Bruce
That seems a little harsh. I only used the term 'cheaper' in the sense that I wanted to save the homeowner money, if there was a legitimate way to do so. This is a hundred and twenty year old house with no sub-floor, and I honestly have not installed a sub-floor in this situation before, and was asking for advice. I'm taking the advice---well, all but yours---and will install an appropriate sub-floor to specs, and to code, and all will be fine. Because I do not know immediately how to do something, does not mean that I don't possess the skill set to accomplish the task.
Because I do not know immediately how to do something, does not mean that I don't possess the skill set to accomplish the task.
It's better to study up and ask questions than to muddle half #### ed through something. Don't ever be too proud to seek out knowledge.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Again nothing was meant to be personal. It may have been harsh, but when you have had to tell an owner that the work of the other guy was so bad that you have to remove and redo it all, there is no joy for either party-even if the other guys intentions were good.
To assist you in some fundamentals, to fully understand what you are doing, you should understand if the floor joists are adequately sized, sufficiently stiff for the activities that will occur on the floor and the necessary floor height when completed.
Our standard protocol for subfloors is 1 1/8 Advantec with PL premium adhesive on all the joists and quikdrive decking screw or 8d ringshanks.
Best of luck
Bruce
Thanks.
sounds like you use floor trusses at wider layout like 19.2" or 24" OC - or do a lot of tile prep, or commercial more than hundred year old remo and heartwood.You do make a good point about checking over the existing framing to see how sufficient it isThe OP hints that maybe there never was a subfloor before. Ones like that more often had overspanned undersized joists.
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We add second stories to 1930's vintage bungalows with oak or pine flooring that is on top of 2x6 joist on 2' center with 14 to 16 spans. The china cabinet shakes when you walk by, some of the T&G is cracked. All the tile from past remodels is cracked etc.
On these project we often go in the crawlspace add additional joist to go to 12" centers and PL the joists to the flooring. We then add one or two sets of girders to cut the spans down to 7 or 8' or 5 to 6'
We often encounter way undersized floor systems on second stories of newer subdivision homes and squeaky floors along with failed tile floors in baths. To much deflection on the decking. On these projects we often cut out the decking, frame a drop floor that is 3/4" below the top of the trusses, then fill in with 3/4 decking and reinstall 3/4" decking across the entire area. It helps eliminate plywood deflection, but not necessarily truss deflection-not usually an issue in baths.
I like stiff floors
Bruce
1 1/8 Advantec >>>>>>>>>>>>.
Overkill? You driving tanks over that floor?
sorry saw your explanation.
Edited 4/11/2009 5:36 pm ET by frammer52
Overkill? You driving tanks over that floor?
Perhaps it is overkill-never had a call back on floor issues.
At what expense?
As a fellow framer, I too am an opponent of gross over building. But with what Hiker has described of the situations he works in I think I'd have to trust his judgement. I've seen the framing in some of the ancient brown stones in the insanely expensive parts of Boston. And then seen the finishes many of the owners like to adorn these places with. You gotta find a way to make it work and beefing up the existing framing (to include sheathing) is often the best (only) way to make it happen. It's not like he's talking about remodeling an 8 year old cookie cutter with 2x10's spanning 12'. Not being argumentative.... just trying to shine a little light.View Image
After I responded, finished reading his response and edited my response. When he clarified why, I was satisfied.
I read over at JLC that some framers in the Northwest us 1 1/8 subfloor as a matter of course and I thought maybe this was the case and wanted to find out the thinking.
Still want to know why some builders do this.