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Discussion Forum

sue the roofer or walk away?

Taylor | Posted in General Discussion on July 19, 2006 02:57am

As if I don’t have enough problems, DW wants us to sue the (in retrospect) hack roofer who put a new roof on our house two years ago.

  1. roof leaked (under valley) after first rain (roofer fixed “step flashing” I think he just smeared roof cement in the valley). Ceiling and plaster wall in front room ruined, also beadboard ceiling in porch.
  2. another leak in the same place after heavy snow(roofer cleared off snow and blamed snowfall; no problems in previous 7 years; streaking indicates water getting behind siding above this roof).
  3. major flashing failure around chimney, sheathing rotted and petrified; probably long term damage but roofer didn’t even replace sheathing (I got another roofer in, who put in copper flashing, also fixed problems with valley that could be related to earlier problems).
  4. I take down kitchen ceiling and find aluminum patch put over broken sheathing rather than replace the sheathing (as contract says).
  5. We get major leak in same roof over kitchen; roofer admits they may have put a nail in (head wall) flashing but they can’t fix the flashing because they don’t do wood siding (now he tells me); he offers to smear roof cement over the problem.
  6. Another roof leak, this time at the back of the house and close to eaves, right over where I will eventually be retrofitting a LVL beam.
  7. They screwed up the aesthetics of the shingles, “stacking” them as though they were 3-tab shingles if any roofers are familiar with that term.

I did not go cheap on this roof (roofer quoted 30 year shingles, I asked for 50 year shingles). I based roofer on reputation, now I wouldn’t let him roof a doghouse. For the repairs I’ve done, I’ve used the guy whose quote was $2K more than anyone else (at the time, I had no reason to spend the extra $2K, the roofer I used was supposedly reputable). I’ve already spent more than $2K on repairs. The aesthetics can’t be fixed without doing a complete tear-off.

DW is as fed up as I am. We will probably get the other roofer in to make more fixes. Original roofer talks a good game but it can take weeks of repeated phone calls and letters to get them to come back to do repairs. Last time I gave up and got the other roofer in, they finally called back when I had him scheduled, and I stayed with him. So is this what I should expect from a “new” roof in the modern US construction industry? DW thinks we should sue, I tell her to get used to the fact that sometimes you get f*cked and learn to live with it. Is it worth continuing to patch this roof, or should we just learn to live with a $18K roof where most people would pay $8K (i.e. do a tear-off)? BTW I have been planning on insulating this roof with foam, so you can imagine the world of hurt I will be in if this roof continues to have problems after insulation. And no, I can’t afford to just kiss $9K goodbye, other urgent house repairs will have to be postponed perhaps indefinitely.

Reply

Replies

  1. marv | Jul 19, 2006 04:08pm | #1

    Its probably too late to sue him.

    You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.

    Marv

  2. User avater
    DDay | Jul 19, 2006 04:32pm | #2

    Was the roofer licensed, and did you pull a permit?  In my state, I think there is a fund that you can get relief from if something like this happens.  Also, call the local building department and see what the laws are for warranty, etc.

  3. Danno | Jul 19, 2006 04:43pm | #3

    I think that even if two years have passed and warranty of workmanship has "expired" (and I don't know that it has, don't know what the warranty period is), since this has been an ongoing problem from the first rain after the roof was installed, you could still sue. You could argue that you were trying to allow the roofer to correct his mistakes rather than sue from the start, but his remedies have not worked.

  4. Kowboy | Jul 19, 2006 05:15pm | #4

    Taylor:

    Here's an angle you may not have thought of. Have you contacted the shingle manufacturer and/or the local shingle supplier?

    The last thing in the world the shingle manufacturer wants is a bunch of hack contractors dragging thier name through the proverbial mud. He may have some sort of "certification" with or through them that could be revoked if he doesn't work to certain standards.

    Contact the local shingle supply house and start rattling thier cage. Bribe a kid who works there to tell you when this guy has got a large order being delivered to another job and show up just before the shingles and inform the owner of your problems. After he loses a few jobs, your work will become an extremely high priority.

    Sounds like you picked this guy based on his reputation. Well that runs both ways. Hammer here.

    My roofer challenged me to a rooftop fistfight. Some of these guys are nuts and you have to play accordingly.

    Carrry a .40,

    Kowboy 

    1. User avater
      BillHartmann | Jul 19, 2006 05:24pm | #5

      Some shingle manufactures do have a certification program. If you use a roofer that they have certified then the manufacture also warantees only the shingles, but also the installation.HOWEVER, except for possibly specialised "shingles", it is strictly voluntary and I think that only a realatively small number of roofers are certified.

  5. TJK | Jul 19, 2006 05:49pm | #6

    Outside of small claims court, legal action is usually a win only for lawyers. If you go after some uninsured Bubba roofer chances are you'll never see a dime. Larger companies hire subs and probably have arbitration clauses in the tiny grey print on the back of that contract you signed. Either way a lot of negative energy is involved and that can take its own toll on your daily life.

    $9K is a lot of money and I can understand that you want to be compensated, but hiring a lawyer can burn that up in two weeks. I'd try the small claims court route first. Since they only consider actual damages, you will need to have the deficient work and damage corrected and then file a claim using your bills for the new work plus any court costs or other incidentals.

    1. piko | Jul 19, 2006 06:06pm | #7

      Although I do roofing on occasion, when it came to doing my own I hired someone. He was good - and gave a 10 year warranty. That is something we don't hear many give. That being said, I'd suggest a letter from your lawyer, probably cost $40+, outlining your intention to sue or go thru court. It'll stand him on notice.All the best...

      To those who know - this may be obvious. To those who don't - I hope I've helped.

       

  6. User avater
    McDesign | Jul 19, 2006 06:30pm | #8

    Try anything and everything that people have recommended before a suit.  Justice is often sure, but it can be expensive and it's rarely swift.  Additionally, you're likely to put at risk as much money as you may recover during all that time. 

    Just the psychological load on you in the long months before a trial is darn tough - don't ask me how I know!

    Forrest

  7. Schelling | Jul 20, 2006 01:59am | #9

    Wow. It really is hard to imagine how you could have that many leaks, especially so soon after the roof was completed. This is very unusual with an asphalt shingle roof. The problems usually involve flashing and are relatively easy to fix (ie, you don't need to tear off much of the roof.

    As far as suing goes, this may be pointless. Even if you win the case, there may be nothing to collect. There are plenty of roofers who have no insurance and no assets. You couldn't collect a dime from them. If the company has an actual business that has a long history, you might very well be able to collect and the threat of a suit would probably get you some satisfaction. A good lawyer could help you choose the appropriate strategy for the likely gain and your budget.

    1. emana | Jul 20, 2006 05:49am | #10

      The fact that you are out over 5K pretty much puts you out of small claims court (at least in NY). You *can* sue for the max in small claims court. If you went that route, you don't necessarily need an attorney. Your max amount will be less though.What you will need is documentation that this person did the work for you (estimates, cancelled checks, etc). Also, have at least 3 estimates to replace the roof on letterhead from the new roofers. Make sure they say in the quotes that the existing roof was installed substandard and incorrect and must be torn out to be installed properly.This will at least take some of the sting out of the full cost. Also, you save on the never ending attorney fees.HTH,Ed

      1. User avater
        Taylor | Jul 20, 2006 11:19am | #11

        Thanks all for your comments. I agree that going with lawyers is an expensive, stressful and risky venture. I may try small claims for as much as I can get.A little more background: This guy is very well known in this area. Unfortunately the roofing industry is a mess because the crews by and large are illegal immigrant (and uninsured) labor. I found this out from a guy who quit roofing because he couldn't compete with the uninsured hacks. As he said, they were cutting your lawn yesterday, they're putting your roof on today. I got this guy's opinion after I started having problems. I spoke with the BI and he was surprised with my problems, given the roofer. I got lucky.I had the ex-roofer take a look when I found the flashing problems around the chimney. He did not believe I could sue for a new roof, on the surface he thought the workmanship looked okay (good overhang, seemed to be enough nails, unlike my neighbor where the shingles are falling off a 3 year old roof). Hence my question to this forum, should I expect all these leaks in a 2 yo roof (no problems before)?I don't have much faith in the shingle manufacturer, GAF. From here and elsewhere, I gather that their warranties aren't worth much, so what do they care about the workmanship? I can certainly hurt the roofer by discussing this case on a local BBS, where he has a very good reputation and is continually recommended, but that strikes me as the nuclear option, and I'd surely undermine any legal option by trying to blackmail him.I've determined that very few roofers any more (in this area) touch flashing. They just smear roof cement over everything, which the contract refers to as "resealing the flashing." What you need to know before you have any work done on your house. The new (expensive) roofer I've found is one of the few who'll touch flashing, but he's retiring in about 5 years. I'll ask for his opinion, when I first contacted him he told me I didn't need a new roof and wanted to save me some money by doing some repairs instead. I'll see what he thinks now, but I also wanted to get the opinion of this board, which I respect a lot. Of course, it may be 6 months to a year before he can fit me back into his schedule.Thanks again for your comments.

        Edited 7/20/2006 4:30 am ET by Taylor

  8. User avater
    Matt | Jul 20, 2006 02:38pm | #12

    >> So is this what I should expect from a "new" roof in the modern US construction industry? << 

    NO.  I hire roofers to do my new construction roofs on a regular basis and if there is ever a leak (I've had very few) they come immediately to resolve it and apologize profusely for the F-up.  The very least you can expect from a roof is not to leak.  Granted, my experience is mostly limited to new construction, which is obviously a bit different since all the flashing is new and is put on before the siding, etc, which makes it the optimum situation.

    Re uninsured labor, we don't hire or pay unless a subcontractor has the proper insurance.  The "system" we use will not allow a check to be printed without the current insurance info, including expiration date.  There is no flexibility.  We require 500k of WC and 1mil of general liability.  As a homeowner your situation is different, but even so, whenever I have gotten a reputable contractor to do work on my house I had a certificate of insurance before he starts work.  Some send the certificate at the same time they submit the bid.  In any case, if they can't supply a current certificate, they don't get the job and their bid is not considered.

    I know it's hard to weed out subcontractors - even though I work with them every day, I still get burned occasionally, but it is almost always on a low bid situation that my boss or PM put me in.  If the price is significantly lower than a few other's you get, assume it is 'too good to be true'.  Sounds like you did your due diligence, but got burned anyway.  If nothing else, it's been another expensive lesson for you.

    1. User avater
      Taylor | Jul 21, 2006 03:36pm | #13

      If the price is significantly lower than a few other's you get, assume it is 'too good to be true'.

      You have to understand that e.g. on the local BBS, roofers were ranked X, Y and Z in order of quality of work, and the hack roofer I went with was X. Now I know that X and Y are in a price war, using illegal uninsured immigrant labor and driving everyone except the really high end roofers out of business.

      I also know that HOs don't know sh*t when they rate work done on their houses.

      1. User avater
        Matt | Jul 22, 2006 03:13am | #15

        I also know that HOs don't know sh*t when they rate work done on their houses.

        Even when I'm talking to other contractors about a perspective sub, I still often need to go look at the work.

  9. woodway | Jul 21, 2006 09:02pm | #14

    Document the problems and cost of fixes then take the b---ard to small claims court. Contact Nolo Press on the web and get their book on going to small claims court, a no brainer and easy to do .

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