Suggestions for closing a curb gate valve which hasn’t been closed in 15 years?
(First post here)
Anybody have pointers on closing a brass gate valve which has not been rotated for (at least) the last 15 years and is probably the original, making it about 55 years old? It is located in our curb box, on our side of the meter. The markings on it are “Jone” and “3/4”. (Must be James Jones Company, they are/were in El Monte which is near where I live.) The part that will turn consists of a nicely shaped handle about 4″ long formed on top of a roughly 1″ diameter cube and below that is the cylindrical part that goes around the top of the body of the valve. After digging the roots out from around the handle it can be wiggled a few millimeters by hand easily, but it will not turn past that with moderate hand force. The axis of the valve is horizontal. The handle is currently aligned parallel to the pipe and points toward the water meter. I have a 24″ crescent wrench which I propose to fasten around the square part of the handle, and then turn so that the handle rotates up.
My first instinct is to try the wrench by hand, and if reasonable torque doesn’t move it, to tap the far end of the wrench gently with a hammer. (High torque in short bursts.)
I have heard that these gate valves are fragile. Is the method proposed reasonable? Anything to change to minimize the odds of it snapping off inside? Also important not to break the equally ancient cast iron main line running to the house! I packed dirt as firmly as I could underneath the house side of the valve and pipe to support it when torque is applied to the handle part. I do not see any place on the gate valve where a second wrench could be attached to counter the torque from the first. There is a sort of cap on the bottom, but it looks like it is meant to come off, like for holding packing or for access to the gate itself.
I don’t see any stops on the outside of the valve. Do these sorts of valves generally rotate 360 degrees?
(Why not use the city side shut off? Because the city read me the riot act when I asked about closing that valve myself.)
Thanks.
Replies
>>>Because the city read me
>>>Because the city read me the riot act when I asked about closing that valve myself.)
Then I would ask them to shut it off, even if there were a small service fee.
Then you've got some assurance that a major leak won't occur, and you've got a chance to replace the 55 year old gate valve.
You're right...gate valves are notoriously problematic, and now that you've dug it up, you should take the opportunity to replace it with something contemporary.
And while you are tearing it down, who knows what else will fall apart? All the more reason to have the city turn their valve off so you can do a proper repair on the plumbing that you are responsible for, at your own pace and discretion.
You're sure it's a gate valve, and not a ball valve?
The handle is currently aligned parallel to the pipe and points toward the water meter.
That sounds like a ball valve (or something similar).
A gate valve requires multiple turns to shut off (and will never shut off entirely when that old). A ball valve requres 1/4 turn. A gate valve has a large body. The ball valve body is quite compact -- maybe twice the diameter of the pipe itself.
You're sure it's a gate valve, and not a ball valve?
I think so, the type where there the gate is a disk that rotates, not the type where the gate raises and lowers.
Oh well, time to give it a try. Thanks all.
It sounds like a ball valve
type where there the gate is a disk that rotates
If the gate (port) rotates rather then rises - its a ball valve.
Generally speaking, a ball avlve is quite strong and will take some abuse in turning.
Terry
Yeah, I think you should technically call it a "cone" valve, since, like a gas valve, the moving part is a conical piece with a hole in it, fit into a conical chamber, and secured with an adjustable nut on the end opposite the handle. But for all intents and purposes it's a ball valve.
A gate valve had a wedge-shaped blade that slides in and out of the valve chamber. Easily recognized because there must be a "garage" of sorts for the blade when withdrawn, so there is a flat chamber on the side of the main chamber, with the valve handle (multi-turn) at the end of the flat chamber.
Gate valves are a PITA since the seal area in the main chamber gets filled with crud and the valve blade won't slide all the way closed. For the reason gate valves should be avoided in "normally open" situations and limited to "normally closed" applications.
The other major valve type is the "globe valve", which is the sort of valve that an old-fashioned water faucet uses. It's good in situations where you want to "modulate" the water flow, as ball valves are not ideal in that situation.
I would consider repeatedly spraying with PB Blast and tapping with a wrench, if you are going to go ahead and touch the thing.
I had a 90 y.o. plumbing connection that would not move with a big pipe wrench. Did the PB thing for two days and the pipe then moved with very little torque at all.
Good luck.
That was in interesting morning.
The valve moved "easily" with about 10-20 pounds of pressure on the end of a 24" crescent wrench. No noise when it moved. It dripped a bit from from under the handle while moving, and once reopened, but not once closed. It was opened and closed several times and didn't move any easier after that. It never loosened up enough to move the handle by hand. At least not with my hand. The handle turned out to have a range of motion of 90 degrees, and when in the closed position there was a screw visible on it, which apparently held the handle onto the shaft.
While I was puzzling over what to do about the drip a plumber's truck pulls up literally directly across the street from me, for an appointment with a neighbor who had just run out on an errand and not returned yet. I had seen him around before as he had replumbed most of another neighbor's house. Figuring this must be karma, I ran over and grabbed the guy and asked him what he would charge to replace that valve. He took a look down in the hole and said he had never seen one like it before. Not what you want to hear from either a plumber or a doctor! Anyway, he said he didn't think anybody made a valve that length, and the ones that were available didn't leave enough room for another fitting next to it, so my options were either to cut the iron pipe back a bit and try to put some sort of clamp on the (nasty looking externally) pipe or to replace the whole run to the house. Luckily for my bank account he also said that the little bit of a drip I was seeing was pretty common, and that it would probably stop by itself in a few days/weeks, and not to worry about it unless it didn't stop. So that's what I'm doing.
(Also, he didn't think it was a gate valve, but he wasn't sure what it was, never having seen one before.)
There is probably a nut on the end of the shaft on the opposite side of the valve from the handle. That nut tightens the valve cone into the housing. You MIGHT be able to tighten that nut and tighten up the valve a bit. (Note that there may be a "jam" nut as well, and you'd need to loosen that first.)