I’m looking at building a house with a full walk out basement of Superior Walls. I’ve never worked with them, so I’m looking to flatten the learning curve. If any one has any tips or techniques they’d care to share, I’d be appreciative… and back to work!
www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby To make a small call out. A pretty dancing girl was there, And she began to shout, “Go on back to see the gypsy. He can move you from the rear, Drive you from your fear, Bring you through the mirror. He did it in Las Vegas, And he can do it here.”
Replies
Is there anything in particular you want to know about?
I've read about them, and seen them, just looking for some actual real world experiences. I'd like to avoid any complications. Things like what might get over looked in specing/ordering, problems with lead times, footing prep, drainage, site access, things to look for after installation, backfill schedule, issues placing/tying in garage footings, water proofing, fastening mudsills, electrical/plumbing access from basement to first floor, fastening finishes to steel studs... pretty much anything I could or might screw up?<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
I'm a HUGE fan of Superior Walls, but only if they are installed correctly. The big things that make me really like them are:
Poured in a controlled environment (can take your time, get it right, no weather to mess things up)
Integrated insulation (with conduit holes already there)
They say 5000+ psi strength which means no waterproofing since the concrete is so dense, but waterproofing is cheap insurance (IMO)
No footer, wall is placed directly on gravel base, your foundation drain can server double duty since water underneath the basement floor isn't trapped by a footer
Foundation is set in one day, most people are laying mudsills the same day the foundation is put in
Can have windows and brick ledge built in if you like
If I ever build new I plan to use them. You have to be very careful on the backfill schedule, you MUST have the concrete floor poured, and the first floor deck laid BEFORE you do any backfill.
You should go to Superior Walls website, they have info on everything and requirements. I've read it a couple of times, it'll definitely help.
Edited 3/27/2009 12:49 pm ET by JoshRountree
I have been all over their website, and even with all that information, I'd still be doing it in the field for the first time. If it's as simple as they say, fine, but if there are any pitfalls to avoid, I'm looking for the heads ups. Thanks.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Make sure all of your load paths are accounted for from roof to foundation ahead of time. Any point loads will need to be designed into the foundation to avoid problems later.
The plans will be engineered... just hope the drawings are right<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Don't worry about it.
The foundation is only as good as your local installer
I like it, except the fact that you don't backfill until basement floor and first floor deck is on. That could cause some grumblings amongst your framers. I know this because I was a grumbler.
That being said, around here I am unaware of any proiblems.
The savings are, no footer, and no waterproofing necessary. That and time. it will be in in less than a day.
No waterproofing seems debatable. No one here seems to trust that, and damproofs. I will check the warrantee on that.The walls I have seen do have extra support under any girders/beams.I'm in sympathy over the floor framing before backfill... I used to bitch about that, too. But, it's not a bad idea for any house with a basement... and, it's required.And, yep, I like the gravel, and the speed.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
The walls I have seen do have extra support under any girders/beams.>>>>>>>>
Must be new, haven't seen that.
Good to double check, and get any changes out of the way before the walls are fabbed at the plant. We had multiple areas of point loads on our last house that required extra "studs". Pretty easy to overlook early on, we almost did overlook a couple due to some last minute design changes.
Righto, extra "studs" and beam pockets are definitely better added at the plant<G>Were the holes for the mudsill bolts site or factory bored?http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
I don't want to diaag4ee with you, but that is nonsence. They do not change the foundation based on load paths. It is just like a block or poured wall in that respect.
Wish it were that simple. Our last house was semi complicated with some first floor flush steel beams loaded to steel columns in the first floor walls (lots of long clear spans). This required extra reinforcing via extra studs in the wall system. This information is required by the manufacturer so they can engineer the requirements of the wall(s). It really isn't one size fits all.
snort,
http://superiorwalls.com/ has a pretty good tech guide, as I recall.
I am not a builder...I handled their advertising for awhile. Saw plenty of installations and visited finished homes, talking to the owners.
Overall, great concept but the installations are typically handled by the local franchises, some are better than other IMO. A little our of square, can move with a big pry bar.
Around here, a little more money than block or poured but all things considered, worth it. Pretty amazing to see a hole in the ground one day and a complete foundation (ready to build on) the next.
Good luck.
Hey Gene............
I've only done 3 Superior Wall Systems, and those were over 3 years ago (new home construction in Michigan has been going down hill).
The biggest surprise for me on the first one was how long it took to get the mudsills down. That one required 2x10 (or was it 2x12?) treated boards, glued down with construction adhesive. We were dealing with 9' walls and setting step ladders on crushed stone - It took two men to set each length of treated on top of the glue without smearing it right off. Then one would get up on the wall while the other drilled hole from below and drop a galvanized carriage bolt through. The driller would then use an impact wrench to tighten it down.
On some of the longer walls, we needed to brace/push the walls straight as we put the sills down.
Very time consuming.
All that said, I am a huge fan of the Superior wall System and look forward to using them again.
Terry
Terry, how hard were the walls to move to straighten. And on that mudsill connection, the last wall I saw had a foam block, acting like a top plate, between the studs. The sill bolts ran through the foam. From the section drawings, I think the foam is around a sort of concrete lip, the bolt snugs to that to pull the sill tight... what kind of trouble is it to drill through that 5000psi concrete?Thanks for the help, that's the kind of stuff I'm looking for.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
I'm not sure I understand that foam block / top plate that you are refering to.
Reading the Superior wall site over the last few years, I realize they have offer some more and different wall systems then the ones I did.
The top concrete plate already had a pair of holes in every bay. The man below used a long shanked drill and would drill one hole through the mud sill in every bay, staggering which one of the pair of holes. At each wall connection both holes would be used each side of the joint. The ends of each sill board would also be double bolted.
Never had to drill the concrete for the mud sill connection.
The walls weren't too difficult to straighten, the problem would only be at the joint between two panels. Usually a simple staked 2x4 would pry it over.
One particularly crooked joint required us to bolt 6 ' of mud sill to one side of the joint and use the remaining 10' as a lever to pull it in line.
Terry
I'll try to get some pics of one nearby, if it ever stops raining. I'll get to see if it's leaking, too!http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Around here the holes are predrilled.
I still say that you need more of local view as we have never had to straighten out any walls. One we did was a basement for a 7000sq ft house. Main house with 2 wings at 22 1/2 degrees off of it. It did take 7 of us 2 days to run the sill though.
I'm glad I'm not framing this one<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Pay very close attention to how the panels are joined.
The only one I ever worked on had a bad corner joint and water just poured thru it until it was fixed.
Backfilling after the deck is on is a pain in the a$$. So is having to brace and straighten a foundation.
But the time savings in one place should more than make up for the extra work in another.
On that particular one, the garage footings and stems were part of the package.
<Backfilling after the deck is on is a pain in the a$$. >I know it, I'm always the one falling in the overdig<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
As a trim carpenter I hate them, but it is not the walls I hate it is the installers. I have rarely worked on a house with a Superior foundation that was level or square. I have seen houses that you could drop a pencil on the floor and it would roll away. I have had to shim kitchen cabinets 1.25 inches in 10 feet. If the excavator digs a little to deep DON'T let them back fill the over dig, it must be stone. I just finished a house that they over dug and backfilled and the whole back wall [60 feet] has sunk an inch or more collapsing the basement floor. Also make sure you use the proper fill at all locations. I have seen basement to porch walls buckle because the guy back filling used the slop around the job site to fill the porch cavity and hydraulic pressure moved the walls. I won't even get into the whole out of square issue. If I were to build using them I would make sure there was wording in the contract that the walls met a certain tolerance of plum, square and level and I would be there checking with my Stabila, a tape and a transit and level. I have found that if the foundation is off it seems the framers leave their levels home also and a bad foundation leads to a poorly built house. JMO and experience.
My evil twin is a trim carpenter... he is memorizing all your issues<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
I would be very careful about using the Superior product around these parts. with the expansive soils that we have here there have been some problems. Our firm won't design a foundation with one becuase of the lack of footing and "typical" soil conditions here in NC. I think that the product was meant for granite areas in the northeast with low expansive soils.
As far as the savings, you might save a little time, but little cash and you don't get much for it. For the time it takes to run the sills and pour the slab before any work, a poured wall already has the forms stripped and waterproofed. What are the gains? IMO, minimal. But that ain't worth two cents sometimes.
You're right about the soils. There have been 4 other houses in this subdivision with superior wall basements. They have worked well. I'm supervising this job, and the GC is happy with cost vs poured or block. Finishing superior walls also seems less expensive, neater, and quicker. Time is also part of his happiness<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
time is one thing, but longevity is another. Overall, probalby not a bad product, but I just can't trust sometihng that goes against conventional engineering and the use of a footing. Everyone knows that you can't compact wash stone! For that same reason, I would still waterproof it too for good measure.
Everyone knows that you can't compact wash stone!
Gee thanks for that interesting tidbit of information.
glad that I could help... sorry just not a fan of the superior wall.
glad that I could help... sorry just not a fan of the superior wall.
That still doesn't qualify your statement.
sorry I thought that you were just messing with me...the beauty of hiding behind the screen!
based on my experiences and discussions, wash stone does not have the fines embedded in the stone, which allows the stone to lock in, or compact efficiently. Wash stone is placed under slabs to allow for any water to drain away from the slab, and the concrete bridges small areas where the stone might slump.
For the same reason that when road building, you use a crush and run mixture of stone. it compacts tightly and becomes a structural bed for the asphalt roadway above because it cannot bridge areas as it has very little lateral strength.
you can indeed tamp and vibrate wash stone, but it cannot be compacted. So my theory against Superior Walls is that you don't put stone in the bottom of your footings do you? So why would you put an extremely heavy 5000 PSI wall on top of a "tamped" gravel footing?
In areas of the country with a non-expansive soil, that might be rocky; the product migth perform well. However, in the SouthEast with very expansive soils, I might cause for concern.
I guess I just overbuild somethings, and want to take the extra week to put in a poured wall system.
I think footings can be overrated. I didn't say they are, but they can be.It's not like we go down to bedrock (at least in most areas), all the footing is doing is distributing the load from the structure across a larger area than the foundation wall. It seems to me that the stone under the Superior Walls does largely the same thing.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
True footings are sometimes relied upon more heavily than they are. The "spreading" action is the most gain of a footing, but the general idea is to get that spreading action to move uniformily and allow for smaller movements in some areas to be carried over by the larger unit itself into stronger points of the soil, hence the reason for lateral bars in the concrete. I just can't see you achieving that with a simple stone footing under the foundation. It seems possible to get point load situations that might eventually cause the foundation to settle.
In general, I like new products that test building science as we should try to build better, faster, and more green. I think that the superior product is good at some of that, but I just have a problem with its structural rigidity in places. Putting it on top of a traditional concrete footing sounds great, but how do you tie it into the footing like we do poured in place walls?
I think the gravel footing is part of the Superior Wall superiority... but, if you wanted a concrete footing, couldn't you grout and pin like block?http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
what are you going to tie your vertical rebar to on the superior wall? the concrete is already cured, and tying to the metal studs wouldn't give you much. you could but the wall down to the footing, but that doesn't do a whole either. I guess you could strap the bar to the inside of the concrete with Hilti pins, but that would be way too much effort for the small gain in rigidity.
Why do you think that the stone footing is what makes it Superior? j/c, becuase I think that is what makes it weaker.
Not sure of the strucural sense of tying the SW to the footing.
Once the floor is poured and the foundation backfilled where is it going?
lets say for arguments sake, a DIYer was building a basement home using the SW. Typically when we build walk out basements, which is the most common in this neckof the woods, there is a retaining wall, or wing wall that is then constructed to gradually or level part of the lot.
First you would still have to use a poured wall product for this most likely, as most HO don't want a SW exposed wall in their yard. So why not be able to pour it when you pour the basement. You could use a segmented wall, or even timbers if you want to discuss those options and price points too.
Or the lot could be not as sloping and there is no need for the wing wall. But if water were to begin running along the wall and removing soils down to the footing, the wall could then shift outward because that plane of support has now been eliminated. A four inch slab on the interior is now match for the outward force from the deck above in any seismic activity.
Now I know that this is like the perfect storm, but it could be possible? In all seriousness, I think that the soils in this part of the country are difficult at best and make for the product instability. But that is just my humble opinion.
You guys got that red clay #### for dirt down there correct?
Glad I don't ever have to deal with that.
Pretty far out scenario to.
It is indeed difficult at times. And yes, you are correct, that would be a very far out scenario which is highly unlikely.
At any rate, I am not trying to argue with everyone here on the forum, I am not Frenchy or anything! To be honest, I mostly build commercial so my views are a little prejudiced...that might explain a lot too!
Actually, here red is right. Red dirt is good, good perking, good filling, good growing, and a good sign that you've been working when it's wet.Yankees need to get out more.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
that is correct, it is the Bulltile that you have to watch out for!
I don't like the bullsheet much, either<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
me neither, the horns always get in the way!
Sorry , I thought you wanted a superior wall on a ceement footing... it could be done.I think the gravel footing is one of the things that make it superior. I have to put it in for the basement anyway, excellent drainage, less concrete which means less emissions. Soils engineer has to sign off on the footing areas, so I'm not concerned settling. The panels are engineered to spread their load on gravel, including any point loads.I'm am not trying to talk you into Superior Walls, I'm just looking into things that I should be aware of during prep and installation.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
but I just can't trust sometihng that goes against conventional engineering and the use of a footing.
FWIW, the company that provided my walls was willing to place them on a concrete footing (that I would have to form and pour - within 1/2" of level).
They would place a layer of grout atop the footing and place the walls on that.
Terry
true, but then what are you gaining? why not just do a poured wall with rebar tying the walls and footings.
Most of my foundations are poured walls. And a poured foundation is cheaper than the superior wall system. I figure about 7 - 12% more for the <!----><!---->Superior<!----> wall by the time my excavator places the stone (he uses a crushed product that compacts well) and my additional labor getting the sill and deck on without backfill.<!----><!----><!---->
Where the superior wall shines is if it is to be a 9' wall height. Their up charge is less then a third what my poured wall company wants for the same 9' height. That alone can come close to paying for the additional cost of the superior walls.<!----><!---->
But if the future intention is to finish the basement then I feel there is no comparison.<!----><!---->
The <!---->Superior<!----> wall is set up to finish with minimal additional framing. The ones I used were insulated to an R-5 from the factory (They now offer a R-10 as an option). Adding additional insulation was easy (I used a sprayed closed cell behind the drywalled areas). And for the balance of the unfinished basement, it still had at least some insulation. The result is a more comfortable basement at the time of installation, and an easy one to upgrade as time goes by.<!----><!---->
I like the system. I don't primarily do new house construction, but when I can, I push for their system.<!----><!---->
Terry<!----><!---->
TLE
you got me there, the Superior product is much better at finishing ready than the poured wall. And the upcharge is a benefit.
But what about putting an ICF poured wall on top of a footing? For about the same price you might get a stronger structure that is insulated as well. Yes furring strips would have to applied and waterproofing, but there are other ways too...
All in all, I am not trying to argue with everyone, just trying to say that just becuase a product that has hit the market and advertising significantly doesn't make it great.
But what about putting an ICF poured wall on top of a footing? For about the same price you might get a stronger structure that is insulated as well. <!----><!----><!---->
I have only built atop an ICF foundation 4 times (three different systems/brands) and can honestly say that I'm not impressed with them and don't want to use them again.<!----><!---->
On one of them we had a severe structural issue - when the foam form was poured, something was done incorrectly. Whether it was poured to dry or not small enough lifts or whatever, it ended up badly honeycombed near a corner. The only way we found out was that after a heavy rain, and before gutters and final grade was done, water started to come through the wall about a foot off the floor. Carving away some of the foam exposed the honeycombing with water flowing through it.<!----><!---->
I don't like the fact that there is no way to even visually verify the quality of the structural integrity without waiting for a problem to develop.<!----><!---->
As to the claim that ICF is stronger. Even dismissing the one experience I had, I believe that the Superior Walls, formed and poured in a factory exceeds the strength of field produced ICF wall. They are heavily reinforced; the insulation is on the inside, so no parge coat or whatever to finish the exterior - much quicker to be made ready for construction.<!----><!---->
The stone footing is probably not as much of a concern as to point loads causing settling. They way the walls are built, I believe that any loading, beyond the most severe, would distribute itself over the length of the wall and would span most any spot problems with a stone footing.<!----><!---->
Not wanting to argue either, this is not a new product. It has a fairly extensive history of performance.<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Terry<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Plus it's like 5 or 6000lb concrete.
5000 PSI I believe...
Honeycombing is a concern with ICF, same as CMU filled solid with grout is a concern, but we have used them on commercial for years. one of the risks with anything I guess.