Anybody have this problem? I have a 13 year old survey of my small lot, and the new neighbor next door also has had a survey done in the last week, and the two aren’t in agreement. The key issue is that my fence on this neighbor’s side is obviously on her property based upon her survey, but it isn’t when based upon mine. It’s like a three inch difference that matters, and that’s the difference between the two surveys. I believe that the standard tolerance for urban surveys is less than an inch, so I’m wondering about the next step. I know that land surveyers are respectful of those who’ve gone before, and mine was done by a company that started in 1908. Hers is a new company. Probably not germane. Anyway, if you’ve encountered this, what was your next step? I think she’ll want me to remove my fence so that she can install her own on the property line, which I’m opposed to doing, given the survey conflict. Not germane to the issue, but my fence is cedar picket, restained every three years, and her desire is white plastic. This in a neighborhood of 1930’s urban housing. I think that we can talk to each other, but this otherwise sucks. Would it matter that she wants this fence so that she can send her three year old daughter out into the back yard without having to watch over her or worry about her wondering away, sort of how we let out our dogs?
Thanks
Replies
Wars have been started over less.
How long has your fence been there? It may be "grandfathered in" via "adverse possession" -- depends mainly on what the adverse possession time limit is in your state.
Also, there are often state laws/precedents with regard to fences that are nominally on property lines. The laws vary greatly, but generally once a property line fence is installed both owners may be responsible for its upkeep, and one owner cannot tear it down without the consent of the other. (But these rules often only apply to agricultural properties.)
Show her your survey, which I assume is legit and done by a licensed surbveyor. Point out that the fence was installed in accordance with the survey that was correct at the time. Suggest that she get a second survey from a third surveyor, and agree to go with the majority opinion. If she declines to pay for the new survey, stand your ground.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I disagree with the majority rule.
The fence is and has been up for a while.
That alone is a very strong statement.
I would not let her push you around on this.
3 inches!!!!! She's nuts!
I would be diplomatic but I think she should pound sand."There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
The best response in the whole thread!!>G<
your right about his reply, but ... Just what do you do when you come home and find "your" fence cut down???. The cops come and she shows them her survey. they leave because it then becomes a civil matter.
I went on vacation once and when I came back, the neighbor had attempted to set post for a 330' length. I just shook my head and walked away. This guy was a dumb a$$. Set all the post at 10 and didn't take the contour of the land into consideration. Most rails where too short and the ones that could be nailed up were toe nailed and barely touching the posts.
This after he and his wife claimed that they owned 20' of our property. I found out later why they were so upset about the true property line. The septic system was over the property line. I found this out after they sold. I told the new owner about it told him not to worry. I couldn't build near it. Even if I had known that the previous owner had placed it incorrectly, I would not have made them move it. But then again that were almost to the point off pi$$ing me off that much. They just weren't there yet. There well wasn't within the legal setbacks either.
All of this probably have never happened if the county would have required surveys before building homes on acreage
your right about his reply, but ... Just what do you do when you come home and find "your" fence cut down???. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
At that point, I would notify my pistol of a lawyer to take care of it for me. I hate getting into it with neighbors!
Sounds like you want a fence and she wants a fence, and there's a fence already there. 3 inches doesn't seem like a lot to argue about. Maybe yours just needs a few tweaks to contain her free range child.
/..free range child./good one.
BTDT. And it wasn't fun.
Preparatory to building a new garage/shop, I approached my neighbors concerning the boundary line. According to the surveys, the boundary fell in the middle of our driveway.
But the fence that had been there for 50-75 years was more sensibly placed, allowing us reasonable access to our back yard.
And the legal concept of Adverse Possession supported our right to the driveway that we had been using for over 20 years.
But rather than approaching the situation adversarially, we approached the situation with a win/win offer: we'll compensate you for your loss on paper (how does $1.5K sound?), assume all legal/filing costs, and set the new legal line where the fence has been all these years. Reasonable and generous, right?
Four years and countless thousands of dollars in legal fees later (over $10K for each party), our neighbors settled for $500 more than our original offer (we would have happily paid 2-3 times that!) and, although we had previously lived happily side by side for two decades, they no longer speak to us, and call the police/code officials on us with the flimsiest of premises.
So be careful. Being logical, having the best intentions, and behaving impeccably won’t necessarily get you where you’d like to be.
AitchKay
All good points, but pragmatism, grandfathered easments and neighborliness aside, what is the legal course of action to determine thr true property line when two licensed surveyors have a discrepancy of 3"?
(I don't know either, But I'm curious to find out.)
k
I'd call both surveyors and ask them.And, generally, "adverse possession" (if the fence has been there long enough) trumps everything else.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
From: http://www.expertlaw.com/library/real_estate/acquiescence.html"When there is a boundary line dispute between neighboring properties, many people learn first of the doctrine of "adverse possession", a legal principle derived from common law under which ownership of a parcel of property (or a portion thereof) can change without payment and against the will of the owner. However, it is not always necessary to resolve a boundary dispute through a claim of adverse possession, and its requirement of a "hostile" taking. Alternative relief may be available under the doctrine of acquiescence."The law of acquiescence is concerned with adjoining property owners, both of whom are mistaken about where the line between their property is. Adjoining property owners may treat a boundary line, often a fence, as the property line. If the boundary line is not the recorded property line, this results in one property owner possessing what is actually the other property owner's land. Regardless of the innocent nature of this mistake, the property owner whose land is being possessed by another would ordinarily have a cause of action against the other property owner to recover possession of the land. However, if the doctrine of acquiescence applies, the property owner of record is no longer be able to enforce his title, and the other property owner will gain title."Please note that real estate laws can vary significantly between jurisdictions. The following presentation introduces the concept of acquiescence, but the availability and application of this remedy will be governed by the laws of your jurisdiction, which may be different."
More details: http://www.expertlaw.com/library/real_estate/adverse_possession.html
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
adverse possesion principles are applie3d differently in different states, so this is not something to argue about details here. May or may not apply to tyhis case..
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If you've read "Roughing It," then you know thos story ....
Mark Twain tells of a lawyer, new to the territory, who is approached by a local with a property dispute. It seems the client owns a ranch in the valley, and a recent mudslide resulted in his uphill neighbor's parcel coming down and resting on his ranch.
The client tells the lawyer that when he approached his neighbor, the neighbor angrily ordered him off os 'his' land.
Very simple says the lawyer, this matter is well defined. Yet, the other guy is adamant, and the matter goes to court. There, the attorney is stunned when the judge and jury all go completely against all precedent, and find for the defendant.
Only when the court erupts in laughter as he's leaving- including the client - does the lawyer realize that he has been the victim of a very elaborate practical joke, that the entire town had been in on.
The picture that makes this vivid to me is that of a lawsuit between two farmers over who owns a certain cow. One farmed spends years and money feeding the cow, the other farmer spends those years working hard to haul off th e manure, while the two lawyers happily sit on stools on either side of the animal happily milking her udder.
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I am pretty sure that whatever the term used, the adverse means that you are making use of the property[IE have a fence on it] not that the property owner is disputing it. It is pretty obvious that one would not argue for 20 years, one would tear down the fence. The way to prevent this is to write up rental agreements[buck a year]
or limited rights of way.
I have been over this in detail with my lawyer, both because of a claim I might have had on a neighbor's and one an abutting lot might have had on mine. In this state, you are wrong on both counts, if I understand what you meant to say. BTW, in this state it is something like 23 years
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I frequent this site and you will get a lot of very helpful info on your situation. There are two surveying sites that may also be of help. http://www.ACSM.net and http://www.RPLS.com. ACSM, which stands for American Congress on Surveying and Mapping and http://www.RPLS.com for Registered Professional Land Surveyors.
Funny thread. You can't even discuss neighbors without things getting a bit tense.
"Funny thread. You can't even discuss neighbors without things getting a bit tense."Or without someone taking a fence...It's all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out..You are always welcome at Quittintime
ding ding ding and we have a winna!
Congratulations!
Luka receives the MrT/brownbagg One Liner' Award.
Saaalute!View Image View Image
Thank you thank you.I'm here every thursday...It's all fun and games, until someone puts an eye out..You are always welcome at Quittintime
U sly olde fox! It almost slipped by me.
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True. But the basic principle remains the same -- well-established boundaries take precedence over surveys. All the haggling has to do with what "well-established" means.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I have three corner pegs in the corner of my lot, placed from 3 different surveys my neighbor had done over the years. They are in about a 10" triangle and certainly not +/- an inch or even 3". When my wife was bringing a community out of the ground the engineering company said +/- a foot was about all you can really count on. They really use fixed points like the centerline of roads and such but even those creep as the add lifts and widen the road.I bet as technology moves forward a lot of property lines will be proven wrong. I never really believed in the mythology of surveying anyway.As a side note. they just figured out that "Four Corners", the meeting point of Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona and Utah is actually 1,807 feet from where the Indian charges you $10 to stand and take pictures.
I know what you're saying, I'm just curious what the real abstract law is. The monuments in the intersections are themselves supposed to be resolvable back to other "fixed" monuments.
In the east bay here many properties have slid downhill by many feet (up to twenty in some of the slide areas), and so many buildings are actually well across undisputed property lines.
The most basic abstract legal finding so far is that the downhill neighbor whose property is being infringed upon by the uphill neighbor (by his house!) is entitled to take back his property. The uphill neighbor would then have to sue his uphill neighbor so as to move his house uphill, etc. etc.
Needless to say, this has all been stalled in appeal, and the courts and the city want nothing to do with it.But, back to Barmil's question... easments aside, what is the method of determining the true legal property line? Surely one can't order an infinite number of surveys, each with a different result? At some point, one line must be declared legally correct, no?
k
I live and build way out in the sticks but I've never had any leeway in boundaries on any surveys done for me. That's what cost the money - when they can't be sure they trail all over the district until they find a reliable bench mark. Sometimes I don't even see the surveyors the first day they are so far off, but when they do nail it down they are bang on. One house I did they phoned me after the foundation was in to tell me it was an inch off square. (yeah I admit it)
Yeah, that's why I keep trying to bring the thread back to BARMIL's original, basic question. 3" seems like a lot to me too, when it comes to a survey discrepancy. And I can fully imagine real world situations where it could be a huge, huge deal.I completely agree with everyone else's pragmatic take on this particular fence matter- I've built enough fences to have been around and around that shtstorm. In this case, it's almost certainly not worth arguing over.But, that's not the main question. The main question is, when two legal, licensed surveys disagree, what is the method of figuring the true legal property line? Like, if was something much more important than a fence- what do you do?
k
"They really use fixed points like the centerline of roads and such but even those creep as the add lifts and widen the road."Here the roads are off by feet. The neighbors across the street corner is probably 4-5 foot into the road.And I have one corner with my neighbor that my survey shows is 12 ft onto theirs. And they have one that shows it is only 7 ft. But their house was built in the 30's.And this is a place with basic lot size is 50x100..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Those 3 inches have to be reverted into a Demilitarized zone. Best option would be for both parties to install razor wire and turrets. Over time, those 3 inches will revert back to wild nature offering a nice little sliver of a nature preserver.
"what is the legal course of action to determine thr true property line when two licensed surveyors have a discrepancy of 3"?"There are two courses: mutual agreement or let the judge decide.
"our neighbors settled for $500 more than our original offer (we would have happily paid 2-3 times that!)"Why didn't you offer five grand to start out then?I've seen this kind of thing half a dozen times and fifteen hundred is a measely sum top pay for that convenience.
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Ah, yes, it’s Piffin...Local chair of the Monday Morning Quarterbacks Club.I had stakes set back in ’83, and pointed out the survey/fenceline discrepancy at the time. My neighbor didn’t say anything one way or the other at the time, and did nothing about it for the next 15 years. Apparently it was not a big deal to him.The fence was the old, arch-topped crinkly wire style, maybe 75 years old -- a 60-year-old guy who grew up in our house said it had been there forever. So all Adverse Possession requirements had long since been met, before any of us now involved were born.Therefore, chances of them ever winning in a court of law were slim to none, not that I ever dreamed it would come to that.And if you know you’ve got a snowball’s chance in Hell of winning in court, the reasonable and civil thing to do is to sit down and negotiate.Also, the fence was over 60’ from his house, less than 15’ from mine. My house and that fence set the width of our narrow driveway. Narrowing it back to the old survey line would make it impossible to get to our garage, while giving our neighbors almost nothing.You’d have to be a jerk not to work with your neighbors in such a situation.But as soon as I approached them about cleaning up the legal descriptions, they cut off all contact with us, and declared war, even though we had gotten along fine for a couple of decades.They made it clear that they would never give up one inch of that property that they had never even set foot on.I had no clue that there would be a problem, and had I offered them $5K as an opener, I have no reason to believe that a different outcome would be achieved, except for it costing me that much more in the end.So you might as well be asking me why I’m not psychic, Piffin. If I was indeed psychic, I’d have known that as soon as my neighbors stonewalled me, I should have immediately filed suit against them, because they were already enemies for life, and that they would drag things out for years, which they did, if I continued with the nice-guy approach, trading lawyer letters and trying to get them to sit down at the table with me.Filing suit early would have probably saved me maybe 10K and 4 years, but I’m not psychic.AitchKay
"So you might as well be asking me why I’m not psychic, Piffin. "I don't care if you are psychic or not. I was asking why you didn't want to be fair about the price you offered. I can well imagine that the low price and the way you offered it may have been the reason why they cut you off and snowballed you. I am basing that thought on the low price and the attitude you regularly display here of arrogance. if you do the same in your physical life, you were insulting them without realizing it.oTOH, you may have been an angle in disguise and they were possessed by Satan Himself
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High accuracy does not necessarily make a newer survey more correct than a older. For instance, say that the original written description of a lot, ( for arguments sake 100 years old), and the original boundary stakes are discernable. A new survey is done, and the stakes are 1' off. What happens? The original stakes trump all, because those are the physical landmarks of the property line.
As far as moving a fence 3", I wouldn't bother, and I doubt that you could be forced. The laws typically make allowances for errors such as these. Many buildings are built close to a property line. Would the law force a house to be torn down because a GPS driven survey places the house at 9'10" from the property line, whereas the builders original survey 30 years ago placed the house at 10'1" from the line?
To the OP,; why isn't the old fence adequate for containing your neighbors little kid?
Edited 10/17/2009 12:09 pm ET by McMark
I see your point about property pegs, but surely all surveys refer back to fixed points or benchmarks which in turn have a fixed relationship to other fixed points and ultimately to the meridians at Greenwich etc, so that theoretically at least all disputes resolvable by reference to these?
So you are saying that because of increases accuracy, and because of geo-tectonics, that because the distance from Greenwich UK and San Francisco has increased by 1.5 meters in the last 100 years, all property stakes should be moved, and all buildings should be jacked into a new location 38" to the east?
No, quite right I hadn't thought of that. I know it is happening here too as there are several elaborate machines in the surrounding hills measuring the creep of the tectonic plates under us. I suppose I have been lucky. Both in the cities I have lived in and now here in the country there have been reliable benchmarks from which all surveys can be checked. Whenever there has been a dispute it is easily settled.
Those are accurate, but down in Cali or Nevada, I don't remember which, engineers have built an "L" shaped device consisting of two tunnels 4 klicks long perpendicular to one another. There are huge masses at both ends and lasers shine down these tunnels in a vacuum and bounce around from beam splitters that feed the info to computers. They're looking for gravity waves, that may move one or both of the masses one-ten-millionth of a meter, so they can measure the interferometery between the waves, and identify their amplitude.
Now that's accurate...
Many property descriptions are written along the lines of ".. thence 30 rods, more or less, in a north-westerly direction to a tree, thence east 50 rods along a fenceline to a corner post..."GPS and lasers aren't much help in refining those.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
All property surveys should be referenced to section corners or quarter corners set by government surveyors during the original surveys. This is the case in PLSS (public land survey system) states (all states except colonial states and Texas). Lot surveys in platted subdivisions can be referenced to the subdivision corers (which are referenced to original government corners). Original monuments, when found, will trump everything else. There are guidlines for land surveys (minimum standards) and there are ways to resolve gaps and overlaps depending on the situations. Taking it to court should be the last resort.
His mistake wasn't in offering $1500. The mistake was making the first offer because in negotiations, the one who speaks first, loses.
From that book, yes. Presuming a negotiation is in progress.
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Now you're really amping up, aren't you?.Thanks again for the personal attacks, you're as sweet as usual, Pif.I sought and complied with the best advice I could throughout that whole ordeal, regularly bouncing ideas around with trusted friends and a variety of professionals in the legal and real estate community.Your suggestion that everything was obviously all my fault is bizarre, given that you weren't there.And "fair price"? Since every indicator pointed to the property in question rightfully belonging to us, offering anything at all was neighborly.We went with the advice we received both from our real-estate lawyer and from the owner of the largest real estate firm in our area. They suggested a figure that would lubricate the situation, and we went with thatt.Perhaps you'd like me to give you their phone numbers so that you can call them up and flame them, too.Love and kisses, AitchKay
"every indicator "???
You started out by tell us of an indicator that the property line was NOT where that fence was.So it was all your neighbor's fault. I can accept that. Known of those deals too.I'll take your luv, but please hold back on those sloppy kisses. It makes the dog wonder who I've been hanging out with
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Exactly! I would shut her down as best you can. Do it nicely, and legally, but shut her down.
If there is a problem with her child getting out you can modify your fence.
"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
"Talk, talk" is far better than "sue, sue."
If it's on her land ... and, if the issue got to court the court would order a new survey .... you might have to move her fence. Or, perhaps, buy a slice of her property.
"Adverse posession" is irrelevant here. look up the definition; you have to hold the property in opposition to an owner who knows you have it, AND you have to be paying the property taxes on it. You meet neither condition.
Edited 10/17/2009 8:54 am ET by renosteinke
> you have to hold the property in opposition to an owner who knows you have it, AND you have to be paying the property taxes on itNo, it only has to be true that the other property owner AT THE TIME knows you're occupying the property. They do not have to be aware that it's their property. And, if the time limit is 7 years, and the prior owner didn't contest it for 6 years and 364 days, the new property owner only has one day to contest it. And you pay property taxes on the assessed value of the property, and any assessor would assume that property ran to the fence.Adverse possession exists for precisely this sort of situation -- what is assumed to be the property line becomes the property line.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I can't speak for everywhere, but the definition in Black's Law dictionary, and the statutes of both Illinois and Nevada make clear that you have to be holding the property in defiance of the rightful owners' wishes. Simply sitting on it, with the other owner unawares, does not meet the requirement.
That's why it's called 'adverse' posession, and not simply 'posession.'
Then there remains the matter of paying the property taxes on it. The bill you get is for your parcel alone - not the sliver of the parcel you're also occupying.
The easiest way for a property owner to handle this situation, should they be on the 'short' side, is to send the other party granting them permission to use the land, for the time being, subject to cancellation at any time. This would them place the burden on the 'taker' to start legal proceedings to obtain title to that land. Any other action, or lack of action, has the effect of confirming that the land remains with the original owner.
Naturally, these things are best handled by a local lawyer.
"Defiance" has a legal meaning different from the one you would assume.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
"Defiance" was my word, not a direct quote.
http://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=2356
Now, if you have a citation to a statute or other authority, cite it.
"Law" is not simply the are of creative BS. That's where so many engineers and armchair lawyers fail. If we're at the point where this is an issue, then it's time for the OP to depart this forum and consult with a local attorney.
It would be simply intolerable for, say, a misplaced marker to indvertently lead to a misunderstanding of where the border lay - and that misunderstanding to in turn lead to any loss of rights or increase in obligations of anyone. Mistakes happen.
That's also why good practice causes people to stop their fences short of the property line - so there's some cushion against any mistakes. I mean: what's 3"? That's barely the width of a chain-link fence, or half of a wood one. Compare that to our tolerances in carpentry, where 1/8" over four feet is generally acceptable. When you look at the size of a lot, I think the surveyors are doing pretty good.
Edited 10/17/2009 8:53 am ET by renosteinke
"Hostile" was the word I was thinking of, I guess:Hostile - Hostility exists where a person possesses the land of another intending to hold to a particular recognizable boundary regardless of the true boundary line. That is, possession is "hostile" to the title owner's interest in the property. If possession was not hostile, it may still be possible to advance a claim of ownership under a theory of "acquiescence". You cannot claim "adverse possession" if you are engaged in the permissive use of somebody else's land.http://www.expertlaw.com/library/real_estate/adverse_possession.html
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Not in real property. The ownership is determined by the title, and the title is only tranferred or altered by deed or court action.
Permissive use may be revoked at any time.
Indeed, property law is pretty abrupt on these matters, actively discouraging the endless disputes that can arise under frivolous pretexts. As with your car, it's not the dirt you own, it's the title. Whomever is holding the dirt in their hands has no bearing on who has title to it.
At this point, I'm cutting this discussion off. Further discussion will only re-open the endless arguments that were literally settled centuries ago. The title rules, nothing else matters, and ultimately the courts will have the fence removed. It's a tresspass, and it's that simple.
"The title rules, nothing else matters, and ultimately the courts will have the fence removed. It's a tresspass, and it's that simple."Its not that simple. Sometimes the title doesn't reflect reality and it has to be rewritten. I bought a house where the property lines went through the middle.
"The title rules, nothing else matters, and ultimately the courts will have the fence removed. It's a tresspass, and it's that simple."
That's not correct. If the earliest stakes are present, they trump all
"If the earliest stakes are present, they trump all"I don't quit.e know what you are saying or if you are agreeing with me or not. Im our case, the original written description was simply not anywhere in alignment with reality. We couldn't move all the houses in the neighborhood because in the end, someone would lose 15' anyways.
Keep in mind that with GPS there will be 3" errors (and 3' errors) showing up all over the country for the next few years. If every one results in physically moving presumed property boundaries it'll be a mess."Adverse possession" laws exist for a very good reason.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
DanH is right. The fence being there uncontested trumps everything else.
Where I came from it was 7 years. But just the fact that you put up the fence uncontested has a lot of power to it.
Some people are just stupid and look for disputes. You have to show stength or it gets drawn out.
My parents had one neighbor dispute the line and got thier way.
But then several other neighbors jumped on. My parents hired a laywer specializing in property disputes and that settled it.
Then they put up a fence on the line. End of dispute.
Only after they showed strength and determination did the neighbors stop.
"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
Edited 10/17/2009 7:41 pm by popawheelie
Yeah? Well, try to tell Piffin that, then.AitchKay
Hindsight is 20/20. Going into these things can be very eye opening.
Both sides of the dispute may not know what they are doing so it can slowly creep up into a drawn out expensive fight.
Emotions get into it and everyone looses. Except the lousy lawyer.
My parents hired a lawyer specializing in this area and that ended it.
If a lawyer is good and is busy they don't draw it out if they can help it.
That's why you hire them. But if you hire one that isn't busy they or qualified in the particular area they can botch it, drag it out, or both.
If you hire a sub you want one that knows their business. You wouldn't hire a plumber for electrical. And you want one that gets in and gets the job done.
If their business is solid and they are a straight shooter they don't want to take advantage of you. But at first glance they might have one of the highest bids. But in the end they are your best choice.
If hiring the right person for the job is so important in building then it is even more important when hiring a lawyer. They charge by the hour!"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
"If hiring the right person for the job is so important in building then it is even more important when hiring a lawyer. They charge by the hour!"
My father diligently selected a large respected law firm to handle his will. When he died I had to sit and make small talk about the lawyer's garden at $450 an hour!
I hate that! ; ^ ) Maybe they were large and respected but not the right firm.
I'm no expert on this by all means.
I think most of the time people look at the hourly rate and baulk.
Then they hire someone who takes their sweet time at a lower rate.
Or just doesn't really know their law.
Maybe you want someone who knows their stuff and takes care of business but is still hungry.
Tell me this. Did you stop him and say i don't want to talk about your garden at your hourly rate and at my exspense?
I don't think he would have been offended at all.
I know hindsight is 20/20. Still, if I hired a lawyer I would let them know up front this is business. Do it right and give me your best work. If you want to come over for dinner I'd be happy to talk about your garden.
"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
I had a good lawyer, but I felt that he was over-conservative. He was loath to have it end up in litigation, even though it probably would have been a slam dunk.Probably. That was the catch for him, and he didn't want me to end up in a $40K litigation. Very understandable.My neighbors finally fired their horrible lawyer, hired a good one, and we were able to settle.Ironically, a couple of years ago I ended up working with that good lawyer on an unrelated project, and he's great.At one point we were talking about negotiation, and he expressed his reservations about it's value if people don't enter into it wanting to resolve things. He said, "At that point, sometimes it's better to file suit, and then people will negotiate seriously, and settle out of court."Those were my instincts in my boundary dispute, and I felt that my lawyer had capitulated at too many points, just to avoid litigation.We'll never know whose approach would have worked better, of course.Both of these guys are good lawyers, with impeccable ethics, and I like them both a lot. They were just different people.My lawyer #1, realizing that I had been frustrated, and disagreed somewhat with his approach, tore up his final $2,500 invoice, which I was fully prepared to pay. He said that he wanted no risk of this case getting in the way of our friendship.I got him a $100 gift certificate to the best restaurant in town, but, of course, I still feel in his debt. I'm waiting for a good carpentry project that I can do for him at a reduced rate -- hopefully some time when I'm slow, to make it even more of a win/win deal.AitchKay
Yea, hind sight is 20/20. I think the original poster was putting to much weight on his neighbors words or threats. That's what I read or saw in the post.
Maybe the two surveyors could get together and talk first.
It sounded like the neighbor needed a shot across her bow.
But I'm not there and it is hard to tell.
The experience I had with my parents property dispute was in L.A.
The neighbors didn't like my parents and my parents didn't like any of them.
So there was no love lost on either side.
People there tend to use lawyers a lot and don't listen until you do.
The money they spent up front was well spent.
Maybe the OP can just start looking for a good lawyer and let the neighbor cool her heals.
Go over and ask what he can do to modify the fence for her.
Like i said, it is hard to tell from here.
When we moved into this house we purposely went over to all the neighbors and took cookies and compliments.
I made a map of the neighbors houses and wrote their names and numbers down.
It still sits near the front door. If there is a dispute of any kind i settle it right away by letting them know I have their best intrest in my mind. I've made up my mind I will be a good neighbor even if i have to eat a little crow. But I doubt it will ever get to that.
But if someone insists on being ugly with me or my family i will let them know that it is not right. But I really doubt it will happen.
"There are three kinds of men: The one that learns by reading, the few who learn by observation and the rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."Will Rogers
Edited 10/18/2009 2:04 pm by popawheelie
I've seen this same thing go down a half dozen times with all kinds of resolutions. Only occasionally does that fence trump other references.
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This is kinda unfamiliar territory for me, Pif -- I’ve never been stalked before.There’s this thread -- how many attacks have you launched against me? Four, at least, one of them bizarrely abusive.And there was that other thread, a few days back, where you jumped on your CAD program and lit out after me to, both angrily and unsuccessfully, try to prove me wrong geometrically.What’s going on, Dude? I think this all says a heck of a lot more about you than it does about me.AitchKayPS About last night: it’s OK for you to park out front, chain-smoking for hours, but next time don’t throw your butts out the window.
The drugs that lead to your unhealthy paranoia are bad for you in other ways too. Get help.
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Actually, I WAS thinking about drugs -- I was hoping that since it's Monday now, you'd be back on your meds and stop hounding me.But no such luck, I guess.AitchKay
Setting aside your unhealthy obsession with me for a moment,
“I've seen this same thing go down a half dozen times with all kinds of resolutions. Only occasionally does that fence trump other references.”
Well, while preparing to get out of town for a vacation, I realized that my neighbors were getting ready to launch an invasion in our absence, and build a fence in my driveway while we were gone. I saw a chance to approach the woman, and voiced my concerns.Her response was, ”Well, if you sued us, we’d have to take it down anyway!”So it’s pretty clear that my neighbors had already received the same kind of legal opinions that I had: they had a snowball’s chance in Hell of winning if it went to court.But what value does any of that expensive legal advice have, in the face of The Wrath of Piff? Especially when this point means SO much to him?AitchKay
Got a news flash for youThis isn't about YOU.It is about surveys and fences in general. not your thread.
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“This isn't about YOU.
It is about surveys and fences in general. “Exactly, Piff, exactly.I was having a polite discussion with these gentlemen when you came in with an attack on how I’d handled my situation, right away using highly charged words.Then you upped the ante even more, deciding that everything was my fault because of my personal and moral shortcomings.
Fine, Piff. Think what you want of me -- I love you, too.But this is not about me. It is about surveys and fences in general, and, having had personal experience on the subject, I was relating it.Your opinion of me does not change the law, amazingly enough.I’m sorry to say that, contrary to your expert legal pronouncements, the 75-year-old fence did indeed trump all else, and though my neighbors would have only been satisfied if they kept every inch, the new legal descriptions locate the line at that existing fence.... As every legal and real estate expert that either side talked to had counseled.AitchKay
I am wondering about the cases where one neighbor finally takes possession of an adjoining portion through adverse possession or any other means. Is there ever recompense to the former owner of prior taxes paid on that land?
“I am wondering about the cases where one neighbor finally takes possession of an adjoining portion through adverse possession or any other means. Is there ever recompense to the former owner of prior taxes paid on that land?”I think that people certainly try to factor these things in when negotiating. But, on the other hand, the other party has borne 100% of the custodial costs associated with that property -- mowing, raking, seeding, fertilizing, plowing, or whatever. Financially, it’s probably a wash.So these transactions basically amount to each party advocating on their own behalf, sometimes for whatever seems reasonable, sometimes for whatever they can get. In my case, I had informed my neighbors 15 years earlier of the discrepancies between the survey and the fence, they had taken no action and lodged no protest in all that time, and the fence was perhaps 75 years old. With Adverse Possession being the dominant factor, then, the figure of $1500 was suggested to me as a way to offer something for nothing, and give my neighbors a way to win, right out of the starting gate.In hindsight, I, and the people who advised me all agreed that the $1500 had been thrown away. Given that they were going to fight to the death no matter what, offering nothing would have been better. But that would have gone against all of my instincts and beliefs. That $1500 was put out there as an initial offer to ensure neighborly good will, and I felt that I could hardly retract it, even when they declared war. It was just one of the costs of doing business, and I had no regrets there.AitchKay
You have a good grasp of how this works, but these are State laws we're talking about and they differ substantially from State to State, in my experience.
Yeah, like water rights and open range laws
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Water rights seem to remain a mystery to most people who live in the east. Does Maine have open range?
>>>>>Water rights seem to remain a mystery to most people who live in the east. Not in New Jersey. If you don't have a beach badge you can't go in the ocean.
Edited 10/18/2009 10:55 pm ET by TooManyToys
But is it legal to drink water that comes off your roof?
Fuggedaboutit.Aitchkay
Since it's cleansed the pollution in the air, no one would want to.
you hit a nerve...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
That was me.
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only if you pay fees and surcharges for it....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
1. What's a beach badge???
2. Did yur SO select yur screen name???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
no open range here. They fenced their livestock IN to keep it from getting lost in the forest, or stolen by natives
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What are ya'll's injuns called...Maniacs? ;-)
In this centruy, yes.It's an old joke that a Mainah is one who may have been born here, but winters in the south.A true Mainiac is one who spends the winters here.
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Well then, that answers questions as to yer mental stability...si? ;-)
dude...
did you make a mistake by getting out of bed today???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
someone thinks so
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I don't see it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
"Some days it's just not worth chewing through the restraints"
Acquiesence?
Ask your surveyor to contact her surveyor and see f they can find agreement between them w/o involving her and then ask her to abide by whatever decision they agree to between them.
we recently did this and the sellor of the lot who hired the original surveyor made good on the price differential in free bulldozer work and the surveyors adjusted the line at no charge.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Is your3" really worth it? what about her style of fence?
See if she is willing to agree on a 3rd party survey taking both of your and her survey into consideration based upon each of the seperate benchmarks used from both surveys. Loser pays for the survey.
If she wins, she can take down your fence and put up what she wants. if you are right, she'll put up her's anyway, but she won't be able to touch yours(hopefully)
Pissing matches with neighbors aren't woth it, even though your right and it might make you feel better. Been there, done that...
If your survey file does not include a written description of the metes and bounds, go to the county courthouse and look up both deeds, comparing them very closely to the two surveys. One of the drawn surveys is likely off from the written description - it's not uncommon.
Jeff
nor is it uncommon for the written descriptions to be in disagreement. I could recite a basketful of cases
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It has been over 20 years since I did surveying, but here are a couple of questions.
Is your lot in a formal plat? By formal plat, I mean that your title should read something like: Lot 54 of Highland Estates as recorded at ...... And formal plats should have monuments placed in the road so that surveyors have quick access to these points. If so then there really shouldn't be any discrepancies since the monuments, provided they haven't been disturbed, are the same ones that both surveyor used. And any deviation in their calculations should be minimal unless they were sloppy.
If not a formal plat, did your surveyor do a Record of Survey? This is something that is recorded with the County Assessors office, so that it is a formal record of you property survey. If he did, then your survey should take priority.
With that all said, there is also the possibility that if the control points, such as section markers are far away, like over 1/2 mile, deviation of turning points can lead to a 3" error, by either surveyor. And why the new surveyor put in a corner pin when there was one 3" leaves a lot of questions.
I have been in this situation as the guy setting the back point that was about 6" into the neighbors property. And it was an adversarial situation already. Kind of interesting to be putting a lead and tack in a concrete driveway while a police officer is keeping both parties at bay.
I think I can say, and say with pride that we have some legislatures that bring higher prices than any in the world. - Mark Twain
i have a shared driveway, and the neighbor on that side is great. we are friendly and neighborly, but we don't hang out, or anything.i'd had previous bad experiences with shared driveways, and so had he. so we were both expecting the worst, lol, and its nice that things have gone well the past 14 years.anyways, he's vietnamese, and told me that they have a saying- something like: "a good neighbor is better than a good cousin."
you know anything about surveys?
Yep. More about Texas than the other 48, 'cause we're different. The math is the same.
The only time a fence should be installed ON a property line is when BOTH neighbors agree where that is, and BOTH are in agreement to share cost of install and maint.
When One wants what the other disagrees with, they must install their own fence just inside of the line.
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Lots of variation laws there. In some states the adjacent property owner can put up a property-line fence and then demand that you pay for half of it.
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
Lots of variation laws there. In some states the adjacent property owner can put up a property-line fence and then demand that you pay for half of it.
That's exactly right. Big story out of Spotsylvania County, Virginia a few years back about a neighbor fight that started over exactly that. There were two ajoining big cattle farms. One was sold and the new owner constructed a fence along the mutual boundry. The fence was looooong and I don't recall the cost but half of the cost was significant, in 6 figures. After all, these are big farms.
Years of lawsuits and recriminations followed with the nonfence building guy being found liable for half the fence cost. Anyway, to make a long story short, the guy that didn't build the fence had to go over on his neighbors property one day to round up a loose bull, got in a big verbal fight and the second neighbor shot him dead.
Runnerguy
BTW, I think it is good to allow three year olds to wonder away. More of us adults should re-learn how to do that.
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I think removing the fence for a 3" error is counterproductive for both you and your adjoiner, and neither survey is "right," or "wrong," IF they used the same basis points for each survey, and didn't rely solely upon existing corners of the subject tracts.
Go to your or her surveyor with your information and let'em compare notes as to what they used, and there MAY be a blunder or error, or an erronious point used by either.
A little bit of info that may help. With new measuring devices (electronic distance measurement-EDM) accuracys of 1'-100,000' are routine. That's opposed to the 1'-5000' for chainage measurements. For a survey to be "good," the figure of the tract must "close" to within state and local tolerances, which usually are 1'-20,000' or whatever your local survey standards require.
You may want to mediate this dispute, or just talk to your adjoiner and field the idea of replacing the fence on a commonly agreed line, and splitting the cost. Or have a surveyor come out and locate the fence exactly where it sits relative to the line, and record this in the public records as a structure built in "error." This will negate claims of ownership by the built-on party.
Or, just find each corner, make a sketch showing where the fence is in relation to each line, and draw up an agreement yourselves describing the conditions, have it notarized, make two copies, shake hands, and go drink a beer. Remember, "intent" is 99% of any legal claim, and if no adverse posession intent is intended, then everybody wins.
I can't at this time dig out my survey but...........When I moved here in NW Indiana had the same problem with my neighbor. Here we both had a type of survey that is General in nature not specific. There is a specific name for it-don't know off hand . When I wanted to put up a fence around my one acre property, I paid $1300 for a plat survey. The surveryer went to the marker at the end of the street and measured into my subdivision and placed new stakes marking my property
I was smart enough to look at my neighbors survey and hired the same surveyer to do the plat survey...............end of discussion. My neighbor pitched a fit, didn't agree but I hired the same guy who did her survey.
Indiana has two types of surveys. One is a Plat and the other us a general non specific survey. It actually says "not for the placing of fencing" on the bottom of the document.
Does your survey show where the stakes are placed???
Go Cubs
To the OP. With two surveyers, do you have two sets of marker stakes?? or have you found two sets of stakes or one? With some of surveys they have a measurement from a building to the lot line. Isn't everything off the stakes??
It may not matter.. some states have a 7 year grandfather clause.. (mine is a 15 year)
Go ahead ask me how I know!
By the way The various corners of my lot have anywhere from 2 to 5 completely differant boundry markers.
Not sure if anyone has suggested it, but this is why you have to pay for title insurance. It's a one time fee in the beginning, and it covers you until the title is transferred. You should dig out your paperwork and call your title company.
I tend to doubt title ins would cover this sort of event over a 3" discrepancy in bounds
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IMHExperience, (30 years surveying) bad things happen to good people when they rely on "title insurance." Especially when the survey crew (2) with no gun and just a cloth tape go out and measure existing pins and call it a "title survey."
Then the old meets & bounds are copied verbatum and filed. The title company looks back one or two surveys, and if there's no substantive difference, they issue the policy.
Then an astute property guy comes in and goes all......the way back to when it was cut up for a subdividion, and finds all kinds of errors and vacancies, and may start legal processes to posess the propertys, or other shenanigans to sue the title company and void all of the issued insurance policies, which leaves the PO's nekkid and having to cough up $$ to protect their title, if they go t*ts up.
I've seen it happen on many entire subdivisions, so ALWAYS have the surveyor go ALL the way back and demand copies of ALL the meets & bounds from the get-go.
I suspect what Tome is describing is what went on at my house. The surveys I saw seemed to be pretty superficial. I had a hard time convincing one of the survey guys the pin in the road in front of my house was nothing he should be looking at. It was set by DOT as the place to use for the laser level when they put a culvert under my driveway.
I admit it looked pretty "official" but it had nothing to do with property lines. It was only to establish the drop on the drainage.
A lot of times "control & reference" points are referenced off of the center-line of a roadway, or the ROW, and are tied by coordinates to the established "corners" of property along the said line. You may set points for various reasons, and mathmatically tie them as to easements, street construction, bridge construction, and utility construction so as to be doubly sure you don't encroach upon private property. Temporary easements to facillitate street and utility construction are usually referenced by permanent points (steel pins, nails in the street, etc) and if the surveyors have access to field notes and the coordinate basis, they may be used to set or re-set missing or disputed points, as long as the reference basis is sound. These are usually found in the construction field notes, and may be referenced back to a field book (FB) number and page, or a set of construction plans. We always tried to set those in areas that wouldn't be confused with a ROW or a centerline of a ROW point, but a blind sow will alway find the damn acorn you don't want to be found... ;-)
So have you contacted your surveyor yet? What's the current status?
Personally, I don't think you should let her tear down your cedar fence and put up plastic. In many places, both homeowners have to agree on a new fence because they both have to bear the cost. And, contrary to another poster, I don't see how you are encroaching if you have a valid survey with steel, I'd think that is a dispute that the surveyors should battle out.
At my house, my neighbor decided to tear down the existing fence one day so he'd have easier access to his natural gas line, which is less than 1 foot from the property line. He'd already tried to encroach on our back neighbor by moving a fence so we didn't wait too long to build the new cedar one on the same line. Also helped us manage water better - his gigantic roof was dumping water into our yard, now it hits the fence as it comes off the roof and dribbles down into his. He now has a leaky basement, but it is his water.
i didn't read all the post,but heres what i would do.
you don't say how old or how much fence this is, but if it's a wood fence and the posts are 20 years old,they don't have much life left.i'm going to asume it's under 150' long.
i'd go out take it down, put in new posts and put the fence back up, in fact if it's 3" you might just be able to put up new post and nail the fence to em and cut the old ones down on her side. then say hi to the neighbor whenever i get the chance and go on with life.
either that or hire me a attorney and spend 10k on a problem 200.00 in post would of fixed.
the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
Edited 10/19/2009 9:41 pm by alwaysoverbudget
Why is it his problem? His surveyor says it all OK.
i completely understand that.
this could turn into such a bad neighbor thing so fast. there is nothing worse than being at odds with your neighbor. you don't have to like me nor i you. but just to be able to smile,wave,how are you is worth a lot.
face it,get 10 surveys, someone is going to end up pizd. what if the next survey shows the op is 2' over,now what?
i just went through this on a property i own. originally looked like the neighbors house was on me by a couple feet. got a survey showed his huge retaining wall was on me by 6". who cares,it would probably cost 10k to move. oh,and my neighbor is a lawyer............................
i was just relieved his house was ok.the older i get ,
the more people tick me off
Thanks to all who've responded. This has exceeded in number the responses to the ladder placement question, but it's by no means a record. I've decided to see if the neighbor brings up the subject first. If not, so be it. If so, then we'll have to negotiate.
Thanks again.
just be carefull where you point that negotiating stick.it might go off.
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That is so not right... ;-)