I have to install a couple of brass 3/4″ ball valves with sweat fittings for a tankless water heater, and I’m afraid I’ll melt the plastic insides of the ball valves during the process.
I thought about taking them apart to sweat the fittings and then re-assembling, but that won’t work the way these valves are made…once they’re soldered on to the tubing they can’t twist to screw back together.
I’ve soldered plenty of tubing and fittings together and am pretty comfortable doing that, but I don’t want to take the risk of ruining these valves.
Any advice or techniques on how to solder these things?
Thanks,
Ted
Replies
sweat them in with the valves in the open posistion......
don't daly...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I always thought that all valves should be open, but now I understand that ball valves are the exception and should be closed to prevent the seats from deforming. Also you shouldn't move the valve until it cools for the same reason. I've been doing in closed even though I've never damaged one that was open.Use a hot torch and a wet rag around the body for extra insurance.Jerry
Daly.....Dilly-daly....love that phrase, grandpa Jim taught (accused) me that when I was about 8. Goes right along with "Git er done!" "Slow-poke!"
you... shift gears... at least take it out of nutral...
you ... can ya leat set the brake... yur rollin' backwards....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Nibco says closed, Honeywell Braukmen says open. Teflon deforms at about 500 degrees. Don't overheat the valve.
I prefer half open, allows any steam between the ball and the teflon to escape. Blew out the seal once, sounded like a shotgun.
Any ball valve subject to freezing should be left half open. Water trapped between the ball and the teflon can freeze and break the valve.
Open on an existing system. Doesn't matter on a new system. The real key is don't screw around. Heat it, solder it and get away from it. Overheating is the issue. Like was said above 500 degrees or so is the melt point so don't hit it. DanT
Once again, a post with a misleading tile.
What am I supposed to think when the title looks like "sweaty brass ball . . ."
Forrest
Have the wife stop shutting the ball valve off.
Ball valves are sweat closed to avoid deforming the seat. Just watch the heat, to hot, to long and anything will deform.
If steam is a problem, crack but don't open the valve. There was an article about this in a recent FHB...
Use "copper to copper" glue. Also works for brass.
you mean that "silver" glue that comes in a roll? You have to heat it, don't you?
No, it's a liquid product that comes in a small plastic bottle. You clean both fittings with emory cloth, put the glue on, put them together and twist 180 degrees. In a few minutes its a water tight connection. I've been using it for over a year now with no leaks so far. I recently used it to install a 3/4" ball valve on a 150 degree water line feeding a commercial dish washing machine. I'm not a plumber, but between home and work I've done a fair amount of sweating. When I'm in a tight spot and worried about burning the house down or joining valves I use this stuff.
If you do a search, there's been discussions about this stuff before. Some like it, some don't. It's expensive, but I think it's great for situations where you don't want to use a flame.
Rich - How is the glue affected when you want to solder another joint nearby? I'm doing a bathroom right now where the glue would save me from soldering in the middle of a bunch of wood, but I would prefer to use solder elsewhere. Also, what brand have you been using?
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Don, also consider a compression fitting.
Tried and true. Costs a few bucks but will save a lot of time.
Another option are those "shark bites" (brand name) solderless coupling. Likewise spendy but quick.
Yet another option is a heat shield or the new gel products.
http://www.cleanfit.com/literature_pdfs/HeatShieldLit.pdf#search='gel%20heat%20shield'
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Edited 4/22/2006 10:23 am ET by philarenewal
Third option is a Ridgid ProPress, which crimps special copper fittings onto ordinary copper pipe. No heat, no glue. My plumber is using this system most of the time now, and there are many situations where I am glad he is not using flame. He did work for me recently in a house that is 100% wood paneled inside, and sweating pipe inside those walls would have been more than I could bear.... I would have had to stand behind him with a hose and a fire extinguisher.
$1600 for the tool, a bit more than usual for the fittings, and you're in there!
>>"I would have had to stand behind him with a hose and a fire extinguisher.
Wish I could justify a ProPress. Does look like the wave of the future.
On fire, surprised the heck out of me how quick a torch can start one. Was sweating some pipe under a laundry room with not so old plywood subfloor (not dried out 100 yr old wood, modern ply) about 6" from where I was working. Torch grazed the underside of the ply and I had open flame in about a half second. No big deal to put it out 'cause there were no hidden cavities (basically could just blow it out), but if I hadn't seen it, I wouldn't believe how quick it can happen.
Changed the way I work when there are any cavities I can't get to anywhere near where I'm working. Even anything that generates a spark, I am much more careful now.
Roofer I know almost burned a place and he won't do torch down anymore.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Any long-time plumber can tell stories about starting fires with a torch. My plumber started a crawl space fire that could have trapped him, but he had a bucket of water to throw on it. Lucky save. We had a roof fire here recently during a torch-down job. Heard of plenty of fires caused by painters stripping paint with torches too. Yee-hah!
>>"My plumber started a crawl space fire that could have trapped him,
Now that will get your attention!
Next time he comes on a job, give him a pack of hamburgers and some bbq sauce and see it he gets the joke. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
You mean a package of hamburger BUNS! Then he will get the picture.
Back when we used to have cold winters here there was about a fire a week during Dec/Jan due to folks thawing out water lines with a torch.Of course, we don't have winters that cold anymore.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. --James Madison
Yup, pretty soon the copper will sweat itself.
My gramps on my moms side who was a plumber also ( dang I have it from both sides of the family) used to thaw out lines with a welding machine, ground clamp at one side & stinger clamp on the other.Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
In the early 80's I worked at a prison. We had a grade level tunnel housing steam lines that heated the prison garage. Somebody left a couple covers off and a cold snap hit and the steam pipes froze so no heat for the garage. At 8PM in a 30 MPH wind I used the welder trick. Took about 30 minutes and thawed right out. DanT
Phila-
In this location I can't use either the shark bites or compression fittings. What I have now are two female fittings (backs of tees) one 3/4, the other 1/2". I might try the glue...have to do some reading first on that website.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
little off subject but seems to be worth mentioning - any time you sweat tubing/piping, keep a spray bottle of water within arm's reach, also worth soaking any combustible material in the area of the flame (aka framing/sheathing/flooring) - much more effective than "blowing out" any flames -
like I said, off subject but.......
Not too far off subject. Good reminder.
After my little "incident," heat shields over combustibles and at least one extinguisher on each floor of every site is now SOP.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Heat shields...........I finaly got a MAAP torch.....Woah! Get that hummer within 8" of any old wood and ......... we have ignition!!!!!!
I now keep a half dozen different size pieces of 1/4" hardi backer in the plumbing pail. Wedge, tape, tack 'em in place and still keep H2O or fire ext. within reach.
Put the torch to that stuff and nothing but a few orange specks!
>>"1/4" hardi backer in the plumbing pail. Wedge, tape, tack 'em in place and still keep H2O or fire ext. within reach.
That sounds handy. I've used hardibacker to catch sparks when grinding, but for some reason never occurred to me to use it behind the torch too.
Sounds like a great idea.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Scraps of gavanized sheet steel also make excellent heat shields. They can bend and spring to hold them in place.
As to the OP's question, what I do is buy the valves with female NPT threads, and sweat thread adapters to the copper pipe. Too time consuming and expensive for a professional plumber, but OK for the rest of us. To become a pro, you may have to fry a few valves developing the skill. I especially like my way for hose bibs, because you can replace them when they wear out without a torch.
-- J.S.
You may want to use some caution and avoid using galvanized steel for a heat shield. Welding it releases harmful vapors (zinc oxide and lead), but I'm not sure if a plumber's torch would get it hot enough to do so. Anyway, other sheet metals work just as well.Jerry
I've been using galvanized scrap for a while. It's important to never get it that hot. You'd have a fire starting behind it if you got it hot enough to burn off the zinc. A damp rag behind it helps a lot.
The oilwell fire guys do the same thing on a much larger scale, they carry sheet steel shields with handles on them to approach the fire.
-- J.S.
Not to mention that burning zinc is very nasty to breathe.
Sorry, I got the name wrong, it's called Just for Copper, made by Jaco. The website is justforcopper.com. I don't know about sweating near one of these joints, but I would probably put a wet rag over the glued joint to keep it cool.
story: we had a new civil engineer that was running a copper line at the office. needed water at the other end of the bldg. He said he could do it. He had this new product he found at Home depot. copper pipe glue, CPVC glue. so I let him do it, beside I,m suppose to respect the degree people. Well you know what happened. Think of lots of computers and paperworks.
On the Just for Copper label it says it's only for joining copper or brass fittings.
Did his parchment absorb much of the water?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Solder open---- solder closed well...........
If there is a chance of pressure build up I solder open other than that I usually don't pay attention.
I usually recomend heating fitting then pipe, then an alternating position.
But with brass valves I recomend heating pipe first then the valve cup.
Always point the flame away from the valve seat area.
95/5 melts at about 440 degrees to 465 degrees.
Teflon starts deforming at 500 degrees. If you use a wet rag on the opposite side that will help keep the temp down on the body.
Start at the bottom work your way up use the pipe & brass to melt the solder not the torch.
Should be just fine.
Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
A good precaution is to use a tried and true method used when soldering sensitive electronic components: Use a heat sink.
For a ball valve, clamping the jaws of a vise grip plier on the valve body between the valve asembly and the area to be heated will pull most of the heat away.
Of course, you don't want to dink around; just heat enough to get the job done and get off of it with the torch.
It also helps to use a torch with a bit hotter performance, like MAPP gas so you get the desired area hot quickly.
Thanks for all the great advice. I thought about using a heat sink, but I wasn't sure that my vise grips would really provide enough surface area contacting with the valve body to pull away enough heat.
I ended up using a shop rag filled with crushed ice and wrapped around the valve body, and then started heating the copper tube, then the fitting, but always keeping the flame pointing away from the valve body.
I snuck up on it by testing often with the solder and once it flowed I hit it quick and then backed off. Worked great, with no apparent damage to the valve seats.
Still it was a little nerve-wracking. Next time I'll probably just use the threaded valves and solder the threaded fittings on the tubing.
Anyway, the water heater is in, it works great and we're starting to learn about the ins & outs of living with a tankless water heater.
-Ted
>Next time I'll probably just use the threaded valves and solder the threaded fittings on the tubing.
It really doesn't require that much care. You can sweat them all day using the technique you did, minus the ice rag, and they will work fine.
>Anyway, the water heater is in, it works great and we're starting to learn about the ins & outs of living with a tankless water heater.
I'm interested in this. We installed a Takagi in our house about 4 weeks ago and are getting used to it also. Main issue I have is with some temperature fluctuations during showers.