This is not for me, but for one of my customers. They want me to work on their home (just some trim & painting), but they have an ongoing addition which is not yet complete and they don’t have the CO yet.
Before I work on their house, I want them to get their CO so my work doesn’t get confused with the permitted work. Their problem is that they can’t get in touch with the GC who took out the permit. They thought they could just bring in anybody to finish so I told them that they need to find out what the inspection schedule is (and what’s already been approved).
They might even need to put the permit in their own name. I told them to check with the town. Has anyone ever done this? “taken back” a permit? Is it even necessary?
-Don
Replies
Around here if the work isn't being inspected on a regular basis the permit becomes invalid after six months.
ABM is on the money . I work in NJ myself and 6 months and its done. If they have no CO they have to reapply. ( basically pay a fee). Just make out your contract to protest yourself and don't worry about the permit issues. All your doing is trim and paint anyway.
You're right. I shouldn't have to worry about permits, but I'm not sure which areas of the house are considered part of the remodel. Right now, just about every room has been affected is some way. In some cases, it's just cracks in the wall from demolition on the other side or a poorly patched excavation hole to run new ductwork. My job (or so I assume) will include those repairs. What I want to avoid is a failed inspection because of any of my work-in-progress that looks like it has become part of the remodel.
That might not be clear, but basically, their house is in a state of "almost" complete. To keep things simple and limit my liability, I want it complete before I begin new projects. If they need me to paint to get their CO, I would be happy to do that, but that would be a distinct and well-defined proposal.
>> If they need me to paint to get their CO, I would be happy to do that, but that would be a distinct and well-defined proposal. <<
Are there actually places that have specific requirements for interior paint for a CO?
I'm pretty sure that in my town, you can't get a CO without painting. For the house in question, I don't think it's an issue because they did apply a coat of primer before they disappeared and I think that will suffice.
There is no place in the USA that requires painting for C.O. Or trim work for that matter unless its a firecode issue.
There is no place in the USA that requires painting for C.O. Or trim work for that matter unless its a firecode issue.
Thanks. Apparently, my misunderstanding.
-Don
Since you have checked with all of the thousands of different AHJ's why don't you list all of them.Must be 1000's.
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Why don't you find me one that does require the home be painted indoors.
Or better yet , you can use the common sense you have acquired in your years of construction and come up with one reason why it would need to be?
You are the one that made the statement, no me..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Not true - our town required finish for the final, trim had to be up.
What town is that? Provide number if you have it plz.
What if my home has no trim at all?
While it is listed that all work be completed before a final C.O. will be issued , you will have a hard time finding an inspector who would fail you for not having trim or paint.
Most of my C.o's will come in long before I am finished with such details on my jobs. In fact I try to get the C.O. asap so my customers can get some of there things moved in. If we are going to be literal with the wording then I am wrong.If we are going to be realistic then no, we don't need paint and trim.
Edited 3/21/2007 6:17 pm ET by AllTrade
Edited 3/21/2007 6:24 pm ET by AllTrade
"Provide number if you have it plz."
The phone number? Or the code reference? I know the former, don't know the latter.
"What if my home has no trim at all?"
Then you might not pass. Perhaps they were a little more strict on us because we aren't GC's, but we were told by the inspector that the finish floor and trim were required for final.
Interior paint complete too?
That wasn't specifically mentioned. We painted prior to trim, so it wasn't an issue for us.
Don:
If you don't mind me saying so, you need to get a copy of the state/local building code and go to a seminar or 2. The stuff isn't rocket science, it just takes some deliberate familiarization.
It just blows my mind to see how many construction professionals get their code knowledge from "an inspector told my brother in law blah blah blah" type if info. And, IMO, generic code books aren't a lot better. Of course every inspections dept seems to have a few of those "these are the rules and we make 'em up as we go along" type of deals.
And, granted, CO items sometimes come under this the specific whims of the local code enforcement officials. For example we don't need carpet or trim for a C/O. Generally the "spirit" of the CO I think is to see that all other inspections have passed, and that all fire code and safety standards have been met. I was shocked lately when I got some COs and the wall-attached stair hand rails were laying on the floor - the painters had taken them off. On the last house the inspector made me put it on, which I thought was more than reasonable.
The inspections dept for the city in which I build has a new mobile/laptop system where when they flag an item they have to site the code paragraph, which prints out on the rejection notice. It's a good learning tool. Of course, there is always the "other" category :-).
In Westchester, NY, the HO can go down to the town building dept and effectively "take back" the permit. They need to sign off on having liability insurance, though. There is also a requirement that no trades will work more than a 40 hour week combined.
Ed
It varys by location, but many jurisdictions allow permits to be transfered.
Locally it costs something like $150 to have a permit transfered to another contractor and much less if it's transfered to the owner.
The owner is the only person that is able to ok the transfer.
Good luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Idaho Don
Sorry if I'm hijacking a thread, I'll move if it's not run it's coarse.
But explain to me the CO. If I've never not lived at my residence even though I've completely rebuilt the place do I still need a CO? All my work has been permitted, and the required inspections performed but since I never moved from here will I still need a CO? (everything that is except the framing inspection but since it's a double timberframe and both timberframes are completely visable decades/centuries from now I'm not worried about getting that inspection)
Does it matter that I'm doing my own work on my own place?
Frenchy:You might do some anonymous checking (be sure it is anonymous). I have found Minnesota state permits and inspection requirements to be a bit hard to navigate at times, and your city probably has its own overaly. They all do. About 25% is genuinely safety related and the rest is naked revenue raising, but that is how this wicked old world works.
Frenchy,
Can't speak for your town, but in mine the work requiring a permit received a CO (certificate of occupancy) after final inspection. We have one for our addition and one for when we finished a room in the basement. The bathroom remodels did NOT require a permit or a CO, because we didn't add capacity (that one was a surprise to me).
Stepping in, where another contractor has been? Sure, your work may bu unrelated ... but WHY is the other guy hard to reach? I am concerned that there is a dispute / payment issue - and that's why the other contractor is hard to reach. I'd tread carefully with this customer.
I am concerned that there is a dispute / payment issue - and that's why the other contractor is hard to reach. I'd tread carefully with this customer.
Agreed! I plan on being very cautious. I have good reason to believe that there were communication issues between the HO and the GC even during the "active" phase of this remodel.
I also have reason to believe that the GC had subs of questionable competence. For example, the toilet flange is 11" from the wall (standard toilet was already there), the tub (not yet installed) is sitting on a plywood platform which doesn't seem sturdy enough, rough openings require custom doors even though it shouldn't have been necessary (eg. 36" RO), there are now 2 heating systems and some of the rooms are still cold. There's other stuff too. It has the feel of a project without a plan.
Once the have their CO (Certificate of Occupancy), my work is defined and I'm careful about sticking to a payment schedule (which usually, I'm not), I'll take on whatever trim/painting they want.
Thanks to everyone for your input,
Don
do I still need a CO?
In my town, I'm not sure you'd need one; but a bank might insist on one--that being very different sort of thing.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
CapnMac
I'm very lucky in that I don't need anything from the bank. Which is why I think I can avoid the potential hassle for getting a CO.
I'm very lucky in that I don't need anything from the bank
Ah, but that's potentially not true for future owners of the house (or for the purposed of an "estate"). Could be one of those things good to have if not needed. Or not, AHJs differ.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
If I've never not lived at my residence even though I've completely rebuilt the place do I still need a CO?
You're probably quite ok, but check with your building department about how things are handled towards the end and your final.
I have worked in rather strict areas that would allow you to live there during most types of construction, but upon the final inspection if work is found to be substandard you have 30 days to correct it and get the CO, or your electric meter is pulled indefinitely until things are corrected. That has caused some guys to get pinched hard.
One particular house had to be boarded up for the better part of two years since the cost to correct infractions was more than the contractor could muster, the client couldn't squeeze money from the guy who had none, and no financing could be found to correct the issues until a few court cases ran their course.
All my work has been permitted, and the required inspections performed but since I never moved from here will I still need a CO?
Most likely yes. After all the required inspections pass you'll probably be issued one automatically.
Does it matter that I'm doing my own work on my own place?
Probably not.
Notice I've used a lot of probably's, maybe's, and most likely's. It really depends on your local building department. Some are strict, some are lax. Some have deadlines that are indefinite, some pull your meter over minor things. It really does vary all over the place.
Good luck.
PS If I didn't say it when your house pics were posted, nice digs you have there. :-)
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Around here, after a year the permit becomes invalid - which doesn't mean anything except that you have to pay some more money. I've gone for a permit on land purchased from the city and got a "sorry, you can't get a building permit for this lot as there is an outstanding demo permit from 5 years ago!!!". resolution: request the final demo inspection - and in that case there wasn't even any kind of fee to pay.
What I'm saying is that here, whoever bought the permit in the first place is irrelevant. The man-in-the-moon can call for an inspection - if his cell would work up there... :-)
Tell the HO to call the city, county, or whatever and find out what permits are outstanding, if they are outdated, and what the inspection status is. It should all go off the property address. If there are fees to be paid to get the permits reinstated, then HO needs to pay those. If the HO doesn't want to do it, and you are willing to take on the responsibility, charge a significant fee for the headaches you will inherit - then any actual work to be done by you or others is extra. Or at least that is the way it would work around here, granted, I'm not in NJ. Sounds like you already know all that though.
Really though it sounds like you are just going in there as a trim carpenter, so permits and such are not really your concern - unless you are willing to make it so. The HO has told you the work is permitted right? Is your work on a different part of the house? My trim carpenters don't concern themselves with my permits. Their only concern in that area is that their work pass inspection, and about the only thing they do that is really inspected is stairs and railings.
Please pardon my ignorance, but what is a CO?
In this context, probably "certificate of occupancy", meaning it is fit to be habitated.
Thank you, here we just "close out the permit" after "final inspection". A CO is commonly know as a "change order"
"close out the permit" after "final inspection". A CO is commonly know as a "change order"
LoL!
Locally, a Change Order is either a "C.O." or "#&$#$^#$&!! CO"
That and CoO can be a pain to type.
Banks, largely have the requirement for a municipally-issued Certificate of Occupancy to mandate that they are no longer mortgaging construction, but a habitable residence. It would be a formal notice of a "passed" "Final" in your case.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Certificate of Occupancy
You are right and wise to have them take care of this first before you start, and to document and photograph conditions at startup.
This sort of thing varies wildly with jurisdiction, so contacting the AHJ is the only way to find out the right answers for them.
Here, the permit runs with the property, but it expires after one year and a new permit process has to begin again. A contractor can pull a permit but only with a signture from the HO naming said contractor to act as agent on their behalf for that express purpose.
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First thing I'd do is check and see who's name the permit is actually in, then ask how a permit is typically closed out, it may depend on the scope of work and whether there were other permitted trades involved, and if there are other trades,whether there work has passed final inspection, before a CO is issued.
Getting that "final inspection" may reveal other work that needs to be done before issuance of the CO, work you could do without fearing any problems IF the permit is in the HO's name,otherwise you may not be able to do anything. I have taken over 3-4 projects, but each had it's own jurisdictional rules. One that involved a GC that bailed, simply required the HO to approve the transfer, in writng, and pay a nominal fee to re-issue it in my Co's name, one involved the permit in the HO's name (unbeknownst to them) which involved no problems and no transfer was required. One had an electric permit that we had to transfer, which was handled by the electrician, with no real difficulties (but a small fee). As someone metioned, do some annonymous investigating, all this info is public record. This is a situation where a good relationship with the BI can be invaluable!!
Geoff
Are you sure that this township issues a CO? I finished a rehab in Lower Township, southern NJ last year and found out they do not issue a CO.
They do a final inspection prior to closing to make sure smoke / CO detectors & fire extinguishers are present and up to code. Of course they do the the regular inspections during the project (elec, framing, plumb, heat, etc.) but they do not issue a CO.