Shouldn’t building inspectors know more than the people they inspect?
We are putting a porch on an old house (actually replacing an existing porch). It will be a simple shed roof fastened to the front of the house, supported by three 6 x 6’s. This is in a small town with one inspector that is an engineer in his day job.
The building inspector told me (he was at the house on a different inspection) that he is going to want knee braces between the posts and the header that holds up the roof. WTF? I told him that I flat out didn’t believe him. The shear diaphram created by the roof provides far more resistance to racking than any little knee brace would. I simply refuse to muck up the porch with useless knee braces.
And what about the thousands and thousands of similar porches out there, old and new, that seem to be standing without knee braces? I even once built a lodge in the Cascade mtns that had a porch that was in a seismic zone and 185 psf snow load and that didn’t require knee braces (that project had pages and pages of specs from a very conservative engineer).
I haven’t submitted for a permit for this porch. Be interesting to see if he pushes knee braces. In a way I hope he does.
Replies
I had an inspector a few weeks ago who did not have a current copy of the code. We are under the IRC 2006 and he had the 2003.
Maybe not a big deal, but there have been some big changes in the energy section (which is what we were discussing), wind bracing, etc.
To top if off, he had no idea the code on vapor barriers had changed. "Hmmm, I didn't see that mentioned in any of my code update sessions."
Annoying to have to get out my code book so the inspector can see what rules he is supposed to enforce.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I know nothing about your situation. Nothing.
However, there is a stigma about a "builder" that "knows more" than the inspector.
I'm sure there's pizzpoor inspectors out there. But I dare say there's far more pizzpoor, high school dropout, meth heads trying to argue some obscure point to get out of putting in another nail or brace.
Now, I'm not saying this applies to you, but maybe the guy just before you fits the description perfectly. And now the BI has a attitude when you come up with your proposal.
I'm ashamed to admit when I was young and stupid, I did such things. Because I was stupid.
Now I'm sure this doesn't apply to you, but is there any possible way to accommodate the Man, simply so you get your project done sooner? Something like how you have to work with your wife?
Fer instance,
Our HOA has a board member that USED to be a builder. However, he hasn't done a bit of building in the last 8 years. (Makes me wonder why. He whines about how expensive things are and his DW is a kindergarten teacher. He sits home most of the time.)
This is a 800 to 1.2 MM neighborhood. These type of HO's know nothing about their homes nor are they interested in learning. Many of these HO's think this guy is some hero because he was a builder, until they work with him for a bit.
He's a bully. He was kicked outta high school way back when, assumably for such behavior. Doubt if he has his GED. His momma bought his house for him. And he's never had to account for his bulliness.
The latest person that moved in and started doing some renovations, he scoops in and bharasses the bejesus out of them. Ends up proudly announcing at the HOA meeting how "He found the Building Dept in error and the HOA HAS to protect it's members from them." (A setback issue in the back yard where the HOA has no jurisdiction.) Right. All he's looking for is a more adult means of being a bully instead of simply knocking someone down and taking their lunch money.
Remember, you are in the same industry that has NO barrier to entry, NO minimum education requirements, NO drug screening requirements, etc. If you wanna be a professional in such an industry, you need to behave differently than the rest of them. The first step is not to fight with the authorities.
"Now I'm sure this doesn't apply to you, but is there any possible way to accommodate the Man, simply so you get your project done sooner? Something like how you have to work with your wife?"Actually, DW came up with the same advice. I've used that approach before, but this one is over the top. I've come to believe that there are times when you have to stand your ground.
"....there are times when you have to stand your ground."All of us have felt that at one time or another, but you gotta ask yourself how standing YOUR ground might impact your customer. You should also ask yourself if you want the inspector to come in loaded for bear on future jobs you might do.If you're convinced that knee braces aren't needed, get an engineer to run some calcs to prove the point - one way or the other.
What's the appeal process? How do you prove your point?
I am interested because I'm considering working in a nearby town which is a stickler on codes and I am curious about the process.
Before we agree with either of you.
Post a picture or drawing so we really know what we are looking at.
Here is a picture of a similar porch shed roof. The one we are proposing isn't exactly the same as the posts will sit on sonotubes and have a wood deck underneath. The house in the picture was built a few years ago and had a full set of plans drawn by an architect and went through plan review at the city (neighboring much larger city). There are hundreds of similar porches around town. All without knee braces.
I will agree with you on this. Knee braces would be very much in the way.
Only thing I would be looking for is "good" connection between framing members.
The roofing sheathing and ceiling should give plenty of "bracing" against racking.
Thank you for the picture.
(The only thing I would be looking for is "good" connection between framing members.)
I agree. don't just perch the beam up on top of the post/columns etc.
"Shouldn't building inspectors know more than the people they inspect?"
Yes! Alas, that's not the case.
I originally thought city building inspectors were people interested in the building sciences and arts and would have a keen interest in staying up to date on technologies and methodologies.
Turns out that's not the case. They're very interested in rules and regulations, regardless of their validity in the real world.
Turns out that's not the case. They're very interested in rules and regulations, regardless of their validity in the real world.
Problem is, too many don't know enough of that either.~ Ted W ~
Cheap Tools! - MyToolbox.netMeet me at House & Builder!
If he was a regular BI i wood Q him but if he is an Engineer as you said i would not bother.
You would have to hire your own Engineer and perhaps even if you want to fight what other fellow engineer is going to go against another engineer thats also the BI in the same town???.
Then if you do Q to much this guy has a whole office at his disposal to make his point.
Unless you are an Engineer with a office and a pocket protector and a girl to make coffee i would lay down your ego and just do what he wants..
Perhaps if you do what he likes he might throw jobs your way and you will be a Rock Star of porches as you will be the only guy in town doing them Righteous
Of course there is a bit more to the story. One of our employees lives in the small town, and someone from the town hall told him "if you ever have problems with Joe, call us" wink wink. He is a nice guy and so am I. I am going to try to gently reason with him, but if I have to, I'll go to his boss who I am told is a seasoned inspector. Most likely, though, I think he will back off if he stops and thinks about it for a bit.The thing about knee braces is they will look stupid and present headroom issues.
i agree with your analysis.... but unless you can change the engineer / BI 's mind you ain't gonna win..... and don't forget....long after this job is over , he will probably still be the BIi used to have a know-nothing for a BI... finally figured out that if i complied with say 3 out 5, he was finehave you thought about decorative brackets that act like knee braces... similar to a victorian gingerbread detailMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Put um on. After final inspection and after waving goodbye, take um down and touch up as needed. Now everyone is happy.
That is about what I was developing in my slow mind. use screws and they come back down real easy.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Did he even say the reason was for sway bracing?
Could be the header you are using is over-spanned or undersized so he wants you to shorten the span with the knees.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Yes he specifically said racking. Held his hands up and made a racking motion. It's going to be double 2x12's spanning 8 feet. The porch will be 5' wide, and our roofs are designed for 42 psf live load. It's frankly appalling incompetence on the part of a supposed expert.
Would something like this work? It's prettier than a typical knee brace, but does the same job - and it really isn't hard to make.This is in CA where we don't know from snow loads, but earthquakes are never far from our minds. - lol
that looks nice!
View Image "...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Haven't read through all of this, but have you actaully showed the BI your drawings/paperwork or sim that expalins the details/intent?
Well, luckily this happened on the end of my week so I can cool off a bit. I really think nothing will come of it in the end.I do feel like I need to make a point with the higher ups in this town. (I will do this after we are all done). The point is when an inspector is overly picky, two things will happen: fewer people will get permits (not really an option for us) or in our case, we will just avoid the town (we are acquiring and rehabbing foreclosed houses). They have been very happy to see us rehabbing these houses and getting them on the tax rolls. BTW, the put-the-braces-on-and-take-'em-off-later approach isn't really an option. Beside the fact that he lives in this small town and will see them, the beam is to be wrapped with coil stock.
Yeah, and actually, you've been pretty patient with my devil's advocate style, overall. It's good to have a mock trial on BT in case it does come up. You'll have it pretty well rehearsed, and you already got to vent.
Cheaper than a shrink, that's for sure.
k
> I really think nothing will come of it in the end.<
45 posts later.
Well hey, at least I got it out of my system here instead of digging myself a hole with him!
Next time don't let him control you like you let him.
Yeah, he pushed some buttons.
Well hey, at least I got it out of my system here instead of digging myself a hole with him!
Cheaper than a lawyer, too.
k
Don't wrap them with coil stock till the inspection is passed.
I don't know what your drawing details are like, but it is entirely possible for those posts to rack even with an infinitely strong ceiling diaphragm.
k
Care to elaborate?
Well, again, it depends on the details, so you may already have accounted for it. But, unless you explained that to the BI, he may have had a valid point.
How is the ceiling diaphragm attached to the house in your drawings?
k
The roof will be fastened to the house via a 2x6 ledger lagged to the studs. Rafters with joist hangers will be nailed to the ledger. The works sheathed with 5/8" plywood. Rafters nailed to the beam with hurricane clips if he wants, though inspectors here don't look for those. The posts through bolted to the header. These are standard, tried and true methods. Knee braces? What planet is he from?
ah grasshopper, here what I have learn in the last year being a special inspector dealing with architects, engineers and government code enforcer ( they love that name 'enforcer") 1) they are always right
2) they always have to have the last word
3) their only purpose in life is to crush someone ah and last, government are the only industries that can legally take your money by gun point
Edited 4/24/2009 8:44 pm by brownbagg
Well, I don't know what lateral loads your code requires you to design to, so I can't say if he's off base or not.
Essentially, if you're counting on the ceiling diaphragm to resist the moment forces, then it is acting as a horizontal shear wall. Assuming your nailing meets the load criteria, you also have to transfer that load to the "footing", which in this case is the house.
Otherwise, the entire shear diaphragm will move laterally and rotate. For a vertical shear diaphragm (a "shear wall", the lateral displacement is generally handled with anchor bolts into concrete, and the rotational forces are addressed by hold downs at each corner, also into concrete.
In your description, the 5/8 ply carries the load to the ledger (assuming it's adequately nailed to the ledger, of course). Then the ledger throws its lateral and rotational force at the lags. Those lags are then exerting lateral and pull-out forces on the studs. Those studs are held in by two 16d nails each through the top plate.
So, as the ceiling diaphragm rotates away from the house, the 16d nails in the tops of the studs are ultimately responsible for what a hold down would do for a shear wall. Here in eq country, we'd be required to tie the diaphragm back to rim joists or long wall plates, or possibly tie back across solid blocking between at least three joist bays. Sometimes we'd use MST's, sometimes paired phd's.
Again, I don't know what forces he's considering. It may be completely ridiculous.
But if you got a couple thousand pounds of wet snow rocking on a roof, I could see how it could pull that ceiling diaphragm right off that wall. What's stopping it? the stud with two nails in its end?
k
Edited 4/24/2009 9:07 pm by KFC
"But if you got a couple thousand pounds of wet snow rocking on a roof, I could see how it could pull that ceiling diaphragm right off that wall. What's stopping it? the stud with two nails in its end?"So what you are saying is if this worst case happens, and all the hundreds of other porches have collapsed, pulled the studs right out of the walls, this porch will stand because of those 24" knee braces? You've got to be kidding.
Leave the hundreds of other porches out of it. "They did it first" isn't a good argument.
And, for all I know, that picture of a porch you showed might have MST's that run back into the house framing, and that's why it was approved. Or maybe instead of having the porch diaphragm lagged into wall studs, it's bolted to a rim joist which is part of an adequately nailed diaphragm inside the house. I don't know.
All I said is that it is entirely possibly for an infinitely strong ceiling diaphragm to exist and still have those posts rack over. I then explained it. I also said that your details may well account for the loads you need to design to. If they do, then show them to the inspector.
2 16d's into the end of a stud do have some strength. For all I know, it might be enough to resist the rotation forces of your shear ceiling away from the house that you are required to build for.
Maybe he's just breaking your nardos. Maybe he's fishing for a bribe. Or maybe he's a "by-the-book" guy who can be reasoned with, if you try a little harder. Maybe he knows more about dynamic loads than you do. I don't know.
k
Edited 4/24/2009 9:39 pm by KFC
I framed the house in the picture and the porch is built by lagging a ledger into wall studs. I've used MST's when I was out in Washington, but I've never seen one here. We don't even use hurricane ties. No holddowns. No shearwall schedules. Anchor bolts 6' oc. But you skirted the point of my last post. My point is that in the event of an extreme lateral force, those knee braces are a very ineffective way of resisting it, IMO. If we really were that concerned, then I would think something like what you suggest, a strap tied into the floor diaphragm would be much more effective than a little knee brace.
Why not see if he'll allow you to put a stronge back on top of the ceiling joists,from the center over the header, on an angle to each corner back to the ledger board at the house. Vince Carbone
Riverside Builders
Franklin,NY
That's probably true. If he's going to allow you to pin the knee braces in place with finish nails, then it's definitely true.
If the knee braces are bolted through top and bottom, I'd say they do more to keep that diaphragm from pulling away than the lag/stud/16d connection, though.
So, tying a proper diaphragm back to the house is stronger than bolted knee braces, which are stronger than your details as presented (IMHO).
Where your real structural needs fall along that graded continuum, I don't know. Might be exactly at bolted knee braces.
Or maybe he just wants a case of Jack. ;)
k
I have probably failed to communicate the tenor of the conversation. Mind you, no plans have been submitted. He was out for another inspection and we got to talking about the porch details. He said something like "I'm going to want knee braces...you've got to have SOMETHING to prevent the posts from wracking." I said, "well what about the roof sheathing?" and he got this sort of look like that had never occurred to him.He's a nice enough fellow and I suspect that when I actually submit for permit, we'll just forget all about those braces.
Yeah, I was kind of wondering if he had a bit of "that's how I've always done it" in him, without any deeper understanding.
Of course, if our reply to him is "well, this is how we've always done it!" that's not going to be a very constructive conversation... The guy with the badge/stamp/county truck usually wins that one.
I find with authority figures it is usually most productive if I can find a way to get what I want through honoring their concerns, even if I don't understand or necessarily respect them.
Like: "Oh, yes, I'm very concerned about racking too! That's why I used 5/8" ply with 8d galvanized nails at 6/12 spacing to turn the ceiling into a shear panel! And I anchored that panel to the house like so here and here! Racking's a serious issue! Ordinarily I might use knee braces, but my engineer said this is even stronger! I sure am glad you're on top of that, Mr. Inspector, a lot of guys forget to make sure that's addressed!"
Then I go off shaking my head, but I get to build it the way I want...
k
"....IMO"Ahhh, there's the key phrase in this whole debate. Speaking very bluntly, your opinion doesn't matter. If you can back up your argument with solid proof (i.e. calculations), it's no longer an opinion, it's a fact - and facts are the only way you'll win the debate.A friend of mine is currently battling with the county about putting a permanent foundation under a double wide trailer. A few months ago, I was at a meeting with one of the engineers who was explaining what was required and why it was necessary. Around here, it's all about earthquakes and my friend kept interrupting with arguments about other buildings "still standing after 100 years". Unfortunately, all my friend managed to do was pizz off the engineer, raise his own blood pressure, and create a seriously adversarial relationship with the county.
What planet is he from?
Possibly he is from a planet where people don't accuse him of incompetence just because they don't like the way knee braces look.
I happen to like knee braces. They are not only the simplest and most dependable way I know of to prevent racking, they also add visual depth and interest to a support structure that too often these days consists of a bunch of skinny 4x4s with a coat of paint slapped on 'em.
But that's just my opinion. YMMV.
The point is, different people like different things; that doesn't make them from another 'planet' nor does it make them incompetent. You don't like knee braces; fine--your privilege. But: You might wanna consider winding down your attitude a bit before it bounces back off the AHJ and smacks you a good one upside da head.
Just sayin'.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
This sort of stuff is so easy to fix by just hiring your own engineer to stamp the drawings as engineered without the braces.
We just did a similar project and my engineer had us bury #1 grade treated 6X6's in 32" cubes of 3000 PSI concrete with a cage of #4 rebar wired around the end of the 6x6 under a five inch slab continuous and attach the tops of the 6x6's with two 2x12 treated w/ 1/2" HD through bolts and we were able to skip the braces and get the look we wanted.
The wind shear loads were a little more complex than I had originally expected.
m
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Holy Moses! That's one beefy fence post! Yeah, that'll resist some overturning all right. 6 per side, too...
I wonder how long it'll last 'til it rots? Was it CCA?
k
I wonder how long it'll last 'til it rots? Was it CCA?
CCA, ACQ. The plans say "treated". I don't think anyone bought it lunch.
- Huck (adding nothing constructive whatsoever)"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Its best if you lose some of the attitude or youll never win
ask him if there is someother way you can sattisify the code i have found they will often be very helpful
i have foughtwith a lot of inspectors & at one time they would come in twos for safety
a lot of times i guess i won but i paid for it in the end ( dont threaten to beat up the mayor ( even though i dident know it was the mayor ) the officials know about you for a long time it seems )
long ago i bought a copy of the building code to see where they are coming from & also a copy of the electrical code and studied them & had them on site
it seems to impress them sometimes as very few do it
if you turn the inspector into a reference source things go smoother because once you get them pissed your wins will be small ( i have 35 years of bruises to prove it )
If you have already dug the hole too deep have a third party act on your behalf , but dont use a lawyer or you will end up in a hornets nest ( dont ask how i know )
As the song says " ive fought the fight and the law won "
I have fought the law ( AHJ) a couple times and won.but I had two things on my side.A decent attitude with patience
and
Being right and able to show it rationally.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I don't know about you, but I always have a voice in my head when I bury ACQ. It usually says something like "See you soon," or "the next guy's going to have fun with that concrete when this post rots out in 12 years". I didn't have quite the same concern back in the bad old days of .60 CCA.
I can't say that's based on any real facts about it ACQ's (or CCA's) longevity, just a 6th sense as it's being encased in a cubic yard of concrete...
But, I think I remember reading about that whole house having a treated wood foundation, so they probably know some stats I don't. Or maybe I'm getting confused...
No question it'll resist some overturning though. Just don't want to be the one replacing it... "Hey Bill, whadda ya think to dig those 6 posts out? About a day?" lol.
k
- not to mention all the failed nails and lag bolts that weren't stainless steel!"...craftsmanship is first & foremost an expression of the human spirit." - P. Korn
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
There is always an appeal process, but it is wickedly slow. Far too many times everyone just gives in due to time constraints or its just easier to say, that guy says I have to, you pay. Thats part of the reason why building codes keep growing with more and more requirements. Have you ever looked at a building code from the 50's? Pretty thin. I dunno, seems we lived through it???
I dont know what the seismic loads are in your part of MN, but I cant imagine they are huge in comparison to say CA. I really doubt the seismic lateral forces will add up to much and given the area of the vertical surfaces of the structure, I doubt the lateral wind loads will be much either. Uplift, ok, a bit, but still not a lot. I would ask what type of engineer he is? A civil eng, structural, mech.... You can find out by logging on to the state professional association and searching the database. I am an engineer and I know many that have their own theories/details they like to recycle without doing any calculations. If he does persist with the knee brace I would ask him what the loads are. If he just pulls numbers out of the air, you will know this is his personal preference. Get your own eng then and fight. Thats the only way to stop it.
Brad
"Shouldn't building inspectors know more than the people they inspect?"
Yep....sometimes.
A little story for you, happened today as a matter of fact.
Had to go into work this morning for a half day in order to clean & bag all the debris in this big apt. reno in center city Philadelphia. My older son who lives in Philly came along to help. We were driving down busy Franklin Blvd.,(what a beautiful day today!), and he was telling me about how the other day he was part of a huge bike-a-thon that started out at City Hall with hundreds of other bikers. It was to make people aware of bicyclists "because there are so many azzh@le drivers out there, and pedestrians too. People just cut you off and aren't even aware, nor do they even care."
I thought about it a bit, and not one minute later a cyclist came along weaving in & out of traffic and cut us off causing me to break my van really hard.
I told him I agreed with him, and that it was good to make others aware. I also told him that I do all three, I walk, I drive, and I too bike and been doing it for over 5 decades. When I am walking, it's the bikers and especially the drivers that are the azzh@les. When I'm driving, it's the pedestrians and especially the bikers who have no respect for you. And when I am biking, it' definitely the pedestrians and drivers that have their heads up their tushes.
This time it was his turn to pause & ponder. He didn't say anything. That means he agreed with me.
So yeah, there are some inspectors who may not know as much as I do. Then again I like to play it close to home with people of authority, not show them my cards, and take the path of least resistance.
There's a lot of azzh@le bikers, drivers, and pedestrians out there.
I smell a metaphor.
k
Oh you ARE good!
I smell sarcasm... lol.
k
Sarcasm! Moi!!!
Banish the thought....