Archy stupidly showed outswing double exterior glass doors on plans, exiting to unscreened terrace areas under big roof overhangs.
Exterior walls at these two locations have 6″ of stone wainscot capped with 8″ ledge, coming right up to door casings both sides. Clad doors swung too far open will foul on the ledge end corners, likely breaking glass.
Archy realized foolishness at build time, swapped for french sliders, but plans remain unchanged, showing french outswing.
Client cannot remember french sliders during tour of prototype home we’re replicating, says he wants the french outswings.
I think people get intrigued by the romance of “french” doors, and don’t realize how inappropriate they are.
Double doors are notorious for operational problems. Latching, sealing, sagging leaves, multiply all the things that can go wrong with a single leaf hinged door, and multiply by three. Outswing double doors are virtually impossible to screen in any sort of a user-friendly way, so summer ventilation is out.
And in these here Adirondacks, screening is a must.
I proposed sliders, same as we saw when we all got bowled over at the prototype house in Vermont. Now they email me and say they want french outswing hinged.
So I have replied by email that we really ought to stick with the sliders with screens as proposed and as we saw over there last fall. And told ’em all the reasons why.
My fingers are crossed.
Replies
Why didn't you suggest French Sliders as a compromise?
blue
Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
That is what I quoted. French sliders.
View ImageStiles and rails proportioned like hinged leaves.
Edited 1/16/2005 8:58 pm ET by Gene Davis
Nothing wrong with French Doors.............as long as they're INSIDE.
I've done a couple of exterior sets and niether party was entirely pleased.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
I concur 100%. I've talked many out of outswinging doors and french doors for just the reasons you described.
All you can do with your client is to discuss your recommendation. But, if that's what he wants, then ok.
I used Andersen French outswing door in a home in St. Lawrence County. The are very well made and seal well. Other than the price, I would not hesitate to use them again. Mine opened onto a screened porch, so weather and bugs were not a problem.
As for the doors breaking on the stone, ask your client what they want you to do about it. A doorstop, or what? That might help them change their mind.
Are french inswings out of the question ?
'French' sliders is a new one on me. Sounds like another triumph of marketing over reality. The photo you posted just looks like any other set of patio sliders. What makes them 'French'?
Traditional French doors are not what is usually seen in the States called French doors, either. The real McCoy has each door at about 18" wide and there are fixed lites on each side of the swinging leaves roughly 12" wide. This way, the doors don't contact the wall until they are 80-90% open instead of being blocked at 90 degrees.
I agree, there is no decent way to screen outswing doors; and in the Adirondaks you don't want to live without good screening. Try to sell them a real French door set to swing inwards--the reduced swing space needed with only 18" door panels should resolve any objections to inswings. That's why these things were designed that way in the first place.
A good source for this kind of door is Meubles de Québec. Very high end stuff; excellent quality and æsthetics.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Is there a reason you can't swing the screens in?
There's also the disappearing screen. Has its own frame and a tube on one side that the spring loaded screen material rolls into and out of the way. No reason it can't be installed on the interior side. Can't remember the brand names right now. Would be a good alternative because the screen remain out of sight until needed as opposed to a regular screen door which would really look strange on the inside.
Gene... look at the And. Frenchwood series
usually if the doors are drawn as outswing , there is a problem with conventional inswings.. which is probably why you are trying to switch to SLIDERS
however.. i would switch to a center-swing INSWING.. as you know , a center-swing will have a larger opening area than a slider... AND a better seal
with the And. Frenchwood, you can get a 5 point locking mechanism.. and some gorgeous looking Estate Brass hardware..
you can also sell them the problem of outswing exterior doors , means INSWING screen doorsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I am ignoring the cardinal rule of building for a client. It is "give them what they want."
Here I am trying to force my opinions on them. Shame on me. But, this is new to me. All my previous projects were either for me, or for spec.
Inswing won't do, as it causes some major problems with traffic patterns and space in the house.
So I just priced out a pair of Andersen Frenchwood Hinged Outswing patio doors, with the Coventry collection lever hardware, oil rubbed bronze, keyed, and the doors will have the to-the-side retractable screen option.
If Andersen't dark green cladding is reasonably close to the green for the window package (Windsor), then I'll quote it, and it comes in at almost $2K per opening more.
But here's another one, and it may be the deal breaker. They think they want a real stone fireplace, instead of the zero clearance insert. If they insist, it will require a very major structural revision to that part of the house, and a total rethink of the interior trim scheme.
If they insist on that one, I'm outta here. Design-build ain't my schtick, and I will tell them so, and recommend someone else.
gene... i'm missing something
why won't a center-swing in-swing work ( patio door ) ?... it takes no more space than a slider.. it swings within the frame
as to the fireplace.. check this out...
http://www.isokern.net
and another...
http://www.chimneyworksusa.com
masonry with some of the headaches removedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
My sales pitch worked, Mike. We're staying with sliders. But thanks for the thought on the center-hinged inswing.
Re the fireplace, I got them to walk away from the real masonry idea (the proposal is for a see-thru zero clearance). We'll explore the cost diff in possibly substituting a cultured stone product for the tile shown in this photo
View Image
Here is the example I gave of a texture and color they might get if we go that route. It would go exactly where you see tile, above, and we would boost the cherry trim somewhat on the flanking edges to accommodate the extra thickness that phony stone has, versus tile.
View Image
Thanks for the Isokern and Chimneyworks links. I have researched Isokern quite a bit, and would love to try it sometime. Wasn't aware of Chimneyworks.
In zero-clearance products, are you aware of Belfires? Made on Long Island, as I recall. Really cool. A guy I know put one in with a real-stone dynamite-looking face job, in a "camp" over in Keene Valley.
Mike,
Could you please explain what a
center-swing in-swing work ( patio door ) is?
Like both doors are hinged from the center and open on to each other??
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
It's real simple, and the door professor will instruct you.
Two-panel glass door, commonly 6/0 wide by 6/10 tall opening, one panel is fixed, there may or may not be a center "mullion" or post, and the other door is hinged to the mullion, or if none, is hinged directly to the other door's edge.
Thus, the hinges are at the center. The active (hinged) door opens and can fold flat against the fixed one.
It is one of the most common "patio" door configs sold.
I always heard that configuration called an autrum door vs the french which has two opening pannels hinged at the outer edges.
You are right about the name "atrium" as being applied to that config of a patio door.
Atrium Door Company isn't in business any more, but they were the pioneer company in widely marketing the first brand named patio door in the center-hinged configuration.
They did such a good job of selling the product and the concept that the name Atrium stuck, sort of like Kleenex and Xerox.
Thanks Gene.
the other door is hinged to the mullion, or if none, is hinged directly to the other door's edge.
So if there is no center mullion, both doors cannot be open at the same time. Correct?
I don't beleive I've seen to many of these, maybe once, but the other panel was fixed.
Below is a door I had made for a client. The two smaller doors open as well. All swing in. It is a door to nowhere though. I had an iron rail made for the outside, as well as a very large one piece screen.
My clients had a door simmiar to it in a Manhattan apartment, only with a transom above.
Cold enogh up there??
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
I cut this from the Andersen site.
View Image
The panel on the left is fixed. Can't swing. Can't move.
There is a "mull post" (I'm using a Therma-Tru term) between the panels.
The panel on the right is hinged to the mull post. When fully opened, it can lay back against the fixed panel.
It is popular because it is relatively cheap to make and buy, offers a regular door's width of passage, lets in a bunch of light, is simple to screen (a slide-by moves over to the deadlite side to open it), and weatherstripping and sealing is as routine as any single-leaf door.
With just a few extra parts above those on hand for regular single-door business, a commercial door shop can make these using standard door slabs, hinges, weatherstripping, and jambs.
That is why you'll see this type door sold so competitively in the bigbox stores, using foamfilled steel slabs and plastic-framed full lites.
For the northeast, midwest, and middle south, it is a very popular door, and the common name is just a "patio door."
When both leaves are "active," i.e., hinged at the jambs, with latch hardware at the center, it is sometimes called a "french" or "double" patio door. In this configuration, one leaf is "passive," which means it is the one that can fix with bolts at the top and bottom latchside edge, and receive the strike of the "active" door to latch closed.
The passive side door has an astragal part screwed to its edge, that has as parts of its assembly, the bolts at top and bottom, a wind hood and weatherstrip edge, and a strike for the active door's latch.
Here is another clip from Andersen's site, showing one of these I've been describing.
View Image
The Frenchwood Hinged Patio Door was the most successful product introduction Andersen ever had. Profits were unreal, volume kept cranking up, and it took them from being an OK window company with OK sales and great name recognition, to a big company with big sales and even bigger name recognition. It enabled corporate jets, corporate BS, and a great big stock of expensive meritage wine in the cellar under their Andersen House guest center, for entertaining themselves and their biggest clients.
Second only to Kohler, they became the building products manufacturer with the biggest and most expensive display at the annual homebuilders show, with display components needing a dozen or more 40 foot vans to transport.
That's what a patio door can do.
Thanks for the lesson Gene!
I get the french, 'atrium', patio thing.............just that the door with both panels hinged at the middle piqued my interest.
You sure must have been a great sales rep!
So when are we breaking ground on this project??
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
"We" are breaking ground after mud season ends, which is typically about mid-May.
You coming up to help?
I'm tellin ya, my wife and I toss the thought of moving up there around from time to time.
My uncle has a camp in Speculator, do you know where that is??
I think we'd get along well. Seriously, if you need help for a few weeks, or whatever,, let me know. It can't hurt to talk about it.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Speculator is a couple hours south. We've driven through there quite a bit.
The eyebrow roof part of the frame-up will be fun, and maybe we could use a little help then. I'll keep you in mind.
If they insist on outswings, could you put in a couple of "hitching posts" to stop the doors before they contact the stone? Like a cedar or mahogany 4x4, set in the ground, that you can hook the door to with an eye hook so it stays open. I've done this on a couple of outswing doors and it worked well.
I'm with you, I don't like outswings, but I also don't like sliders so I can see where the clients are coming from. Too bad they won't go with inswing patio doors.