I am interested in opinions from professionals on their knowlege and experiences with tankless water heaters. Are they cost effective in the long run? Do they supply enough hot water for a family of three. Can you simultaneously run a shower and dish washer? why are they not promoted in the U.S? My old 40 gal. gas water heater obviously is inefficient continuously reheating its resovoir daily! In this enviroment of increasing natural gas prices… am I not fully understanding the overwhelming benefits of on demand hot water?
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I've been gathering some info on these things lately.
The first thing to do, if you haven't already, is to start to understand your own basic water needs/wants/demands to be abe to have an intelligent conversation with a manufacturer or plumber. Below are some ideas on how you can calculate these things yourself. Or you can just call in a plumber who can calculate all this stuff exactly with accurate equipment.
So far I understand that for an average size house you can get tankless water heaters that can heat up to between 5.3-5.6 gpm and what you want to check on first is how many gpm your fixtures go through right now. And how many of them do you really need to run at the exact same time?
For example do you have low flow shower heads which would use 2.5 gpm or less?
What is the flow rate on your kitchen sink?
.................on your dishwasher? washing machine?
This information should be (in very small print) on each of your faucets. So just go around your house and have a look.
Of course these ratings also depend on your water pressure. You may have a higher or lower flow rate depending on how strong your water pressure is.
There are several websites that will help you get a ball park estimate of your flow rate by having you put a bucket of a certain size under your taps and timing how long it takes to fill them up with a stop watch. One is http://nrgsavers.com scroll down there first page just a little and click on the box that says flow rate chart.
If your fixtures use too much water, you can either get a bigger or more than one instant hot water heater or (this would be my preference) get lower flow fixtures. For shower heads you can now get ultra low flow at 1.75gpm.
Lastly, this has been discussed many times before here so you might try using the search function for tankless water heaters or instant water heaters.
Hope that's a help.
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just below, I will copy and paste from an email I just recieved from an associate who does design work on this subject. He passes on whatever he thinks might be usefull so I can't say how accurate this is.
One thing I will add though is that if you have hard waater as is common here, there is a possibility of having mineral depsosits ruin the thing in 2-3 yeaars. Our plumbers here refuse to install them for that reason
and now....drum roll please......................
Tankless water heaters are compact in size and virtually eliminate standby losses - energy wasted when hot water cools down in long pipes or while it's sitting in the storage tank.
By providing warm water immediately where it's used, tankless water heaters waste less water. People don't need to let the water run as they wait for warm water to reach a remote faucet.
Equipment life may be longer than tank-type heaters because they are less subject to corrosion. Expected life of tankless water heaters is 15 - 20 years, compared to 10 to 15 years for tank-type water heaters. One major issue that many do not realize is that there are more parts within a tankless that may need replacement during those 10 - 15 years. Not usually a DIYer project.
Tankless water heaters range in price from $600 to $1000 plus for a gas-fired unit that delivers 5 gallons per minute or more. Vertical and Horizontal vented unites are available depending on the brand. The more hot water the unit produces, the higher the cost.
In most cases, electric tankless water heaters will cost more to operate than gas tankless water heaters. Electrics I do not recommend to anyone
Here are the drawbacks to demand water heating:
Tankless water heaters usually cannot supply enough hot water for simultaneous uses such as showers and laundry. A typical tankless heater with a 165,000 Btu burner can raise the water temperature to 110F and deliver 3.8 gallons per minute of this heated water indefinitely. A tankless water heater can provide unlimited hot water as long as it is operating within its capacity. They are not multi-tasking!!
Unless your demand system has a feature called modulating temperature control, it may not heat water to a constant temperature at different flow rates. That means that water temperatures can fluctuate uncomfortably - particularly if the water pressure varies wildly in your own water system.
The issue of energy savings? A typical tank-type heater is about 40,000 Btu. To get the equivalent, it's often necessary to use a 160,000-Btu tankless. With rising costs of natural gas, one thing that is never mentioned is this. If you turn on your hot water faucet in the morning to wash your face, take a shave, look at what is required just to do this. A simple comparison is a 40 gallon water has a 40,000 Btu Input. A 125 gallon tankless has a 117,000 Btu Input. The 250 gallon tankless has a 160,000 Btu Input rating! Where is the savings if you have a family of 4 or more?
Electrics I do not recommend to anyone
Electric units will draw more instantaneous power than tank-type water heaters. If electric rates include a demand charge, operation may be expensive.
Electric tankless water heaters require a relatively high electric power draw because water must be heated quickly to the desired temperature. Make sure your wiring is up to the demand.
Tankless gas water heaters require a direct vent or conventional flue. If a gas-powered unit has a pilot light, it can waste a lot of energy.
Just some added notes.
Tankless water heaters are compact in size and virtually eliminate standby losses - energy wasted when hot water cools down in long pipes or while it's sitting in the storage tank.
I always have the plumbers install a “heat trap”. Many don’t do this. It is a simple upside down U – like this;
All water heaters, including tankless ones, have some standby heat losses. Tank heaters lose heat through the walls of the tank and up the flue. Serious losses for all types of heaters, unless they are right next to the outlet being used, is, from the piping. That runs from the heater to the faucets. It's made of copper, mostly, sometimes steel. It radiates heat very well.
So if you want to cut standby losses, insulate the pipes, if you can, and when you install a tank heater, make heat traps out of copper flex lines.
Use a longer flex than you need and make a big gooseneck in it, like a question mark. Heat will rise up the flex to the top of the gooseneck and no farther. The photo at left is of a commercial water heater, but the principle is the same. Heat will rise as far as the red lines, but not go into the blue because heat only rises. So insulating to a little beyond the top of the rise will be effective
By providing warm water immediately where it's used, tankless water heaters waste less water. People don't need to let the water run as they wait for warm water to reach a remote faucet. I recommend using a Laing or Grund Fos recirculating pump. This isn’t one that requires a “return loop” as we know existing homes would be expensive if not difficult to install.
http://www.plumbingworld.com/grundfoscomfortsystems.html
http://www.plumbersurplus.com/ProductDetail.aspx?Prod=12916&Cat=0&Mfr=98
Laing ACT-303-BTRW AutoCirc Retro-Fit Circulator Pump is installed under the sink or faucet farthest from the water heater -- where hot water usually takes the longest amount of time to arrive.
Brands -
http://adwords.tanklesswater.com/product.asp?product=250SX-NG – Bosch – Indoor Installation
http://adwords.tanklesswater.com/product.asp?product=250SXO-NG – Bosch - Outdoor for non-freezing climates
http://www.tanklessusa.com/index.htm - Takagi
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/index-tanklesswaterheaters.html - Major brands listed
I made this for my clients, when thinking about water heating needs;
ALL-PRO HOME SERVICES
HELPFUL HINTS
WATER HEATER SIZING
At one time or another, we all have encountered the tragic experience of running out of hot water. This might had been while taking a bath or especially a shower. For those taking a shower, it is especially noticeable due to those that really like to take that long hot one.
So, to determine the right size water heater for your home, you need to figure out the peak demand that will be required from your water heater. The table below lists the typical amounts of water for various uses. Look at the activities that will occur simultaneously and choose a water heater that can handle the required load.
ACTIVITY GALLONS PER USE
Shower - 15 Minutes 14-16
(Shower head flow can go from 2.0 gpm to 3.0 gpm)
Bath - Adult 20-30
Bath-Whirlpool-No Heater (48 gallon capacity) - Adult 25-32
Hand/Face Wash 1 - 4
Shave 1 - 2
Dishwashing (hand) 2 - 4
Dishwashing (automatic) 12-14
Food Preparation 3 - 5
Clothes Washing 10-32
The hot water supplied by a storage type water heater (typically the average home uses this type) will begin dropping in temperature before the total water in the heater is consumed due to the mixing of incoming cold water.
Example:
A family of four (4), the following activities may occur within 1 hour;
8:00 AM - Adult takes a shower and shaves - 18 gallons used.
8:15 AM - Adult takes a shower - 15 gallons used
8:30 AM - Two children wash face/hands - 3 gallons used
8:40 AM - Breakfast food preparation - 3 gallons used
Total hot water required for one hour: 39 Gallons
To insure full temperature hot water you need to choose a water heater that has a first hour rating of 40 gallons minimum or more. I suggest that a 50 gallon be selected for the above application due to variations of the use within the first one hour. Don’t forget, that in time the recovery rate for these water heaters will decrease over time. In some cases, especially with those that have a larger family & may also have a whirlpool bath, it may be wise to invest in 2 water heaters. As you can see, hot water consumption can be very heavy just in the example used and we didn’t even touch on the washing of clothes or dishwasher use. Based upon more jobs being additions and thus extending the distance from the main water heater(s), a automatically adjusted Circulator Pump can be acquired to be set by temperature or by timer, is usually the best option and very economical and cost effective.
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If in planning the plumbing and DHW for a home, consideration is made for material/cost conservation by designing all water using rooms in a central pattern, a well insulated 40 gallon electric tank is probably a good way to go. Choose a tank with a low side cold entry. By insulating the floor/base it sits on, installing an insulating blanket, installing a heat trap on the top exit hot pipe and insulating the first 3-6 feet of the hot, this tank will now have only 2-3% standby loss.....$10-$15 per year and you only paid $250-$300 for all materials.....much cheaper than any instantaneous heater (of which you may need 2-3-4 if your water using areas are far apart and you're trying to stop/save pipe losses.)
For those in areas of freezing temps, the instantaneous heaters need freze protection such as an internal electric heater as they will freeze and crack if there is a reversal of cold air flow down or in the flue pipe, so this is an extra cost that subtracts from savings. In Nova Scotia, I know of two units that have froze up.
One was a home owner who built off-grid without actually hiring a consultant but just by reading articles and trying to pick peoples' minds. He'd called me to help him get around the code here which requires an HRV or some similar whole house ventilation system. We never came to a paid consulting relationship; he put an HRV in to meet code and then didn't use it. He used his own passive ventilation system to save power and this is what caused the instantaneous water heater to freeze. He now has a propane water heater tank!!!!
I dont have the cost savings figures, but I just had my plumber install a Rinnai tankless in a rehab project I am doing, and I tell you it works great! The footprint it replaces makes such a huge improvement. We hung it on the side of the house near the utility entries, and now have 25 extra sq ft of space in the house where the old tank used to be!
I'd like to correct a few statements that have been made so far, at least as they pertain to the units that I use on all my houses. I'll also add a few of my own.
The Rinnai tankless water heater has a modulating gas valve. It is rated to operate between 15k and 180k btu. It will supply as little as 1/2 gpm or as much as 6 gpm at a 50 degree heat rise. A 2.5 gpm fixture will not use 2.5 gpm of hot water unless you are using straight hot water. A shower at 95 degrees with incoming water at 70 degrees and the heater set at 120 degrees will use only 1.25 gpm of the total 6 gpm of capacity. The only fixture that will really test the capacity of the Rinnai is a Roman tub with a 12 gpm filler. When more water is demanded of the heater than can be supplied the heater will supply 6 gpm of 120 degree water rather than higher gpm of a lower temp water. The water supplied will always be within 2 degrees of the setpoint. The flow and temp of the unit can be checked at the control panel.
The unit is protected from freezing down to -30 degrees f. If your power goes out during freezing temps, you must drain the unit, either manually or with an automatic solenoid setup that can be purchased for an additional 250$. Power for freeze protection and continued hot water availibility during outages can also be supplied with a deep cycle battery and an inverter with a trickle charger to maintain the battery. This setup costs about 200$ and will require battery replacement every 5 years or so. The power consumption for freeze protection is around 100 watts max and is thermostaically controlled to minimize consumption and is activated at 40 degrees f. of water temperature.
The installation costs have a few offsets that can help justify the purchase price. The real estate savings is by far the greatest. When installed outdoors you can deduct these costs; PTR valve and relief line, drain pan and drain line, combustion air piping, and exhaust flue costs. These offsets are much easier to realize in new construction. Finally, the exterior installation can save hundreds or thousands of dollars in the case of a major water heater leak due to its exterior location. Keeping the gas line outside is another benefit. Our primary reason for using them is that they allow us to eliminate combustion in the home and enables us to build a tighter home which save in heating and air conditioning costs.
The primary benefit to the owner is never running out of hot water, ever! When we have a very large home or a roman tub, we install two of the units in parallel. They are controlled by a master slave relationship that alternates which unit comes on first so as not to wear out one unit while the other almost never operates.
Here are the downsides.
1 The unit will not fire with less than 1/2 gpm demand. If used with a circulating loop, this is not an issue.
2 When used in pairs with a circulating loop, a solenoid stops the flow through the unused unit but not always completely, resulting in a whining or whistling sound from the small amount of water that leaks past the solenoid valve.
3 When used with a circulating loop, the unit will fire intermittently to maintain the loop temperature which will drastically increase the number of firing sequences and presumably require premature replacement of the igniter. The prescribed work-around is to install a 2 gallon electric water heater to maintain the loop temperature but that adds another layer of complexity and reduces the benefits of going tankless.
4 Service in the US is piss poor due to the lack of a good network of qualified service techs. This is supposed to be corrected in the coming years but we'll see. If a replacement heater is not in stock, your client will wait for hot water. If they have a pair of heaters they will never know that one is malfunctioning. Service can usually be performed without entering the home.
The upsides far outweigh the downsides for my organization. The warranty is 10 years. If used with a circulating loop without the small loop heating water heater, the warranty has recently been reduced to 3 years. We have never had one fail but we have experienced the whining solenoid. This is only possible with the combination of multiple units on one circulating loop.
The issue of scale buildup that was mentioned by one poster is almost a non-issue. The Rinnai sends a code to the controller when lime scale starts to build up. The unit continues to operate at a reduced efficiency until a 30 minute cleaning is performed by circulating vinegar through the unit with a small pump. I am unaware of any tank type units where removal of limescale is possible. I think on this issue, the point goes to the tankless.
For us, the tankless wins hands down with the abovementioned caveats. I don't sell the Rinnai but I sure buy quite a few of them. I hope this helps. I know I've left out a few things and I don't have time for a proofread right now so forgive the poor writing if you find it.
Cheers
Ray, a couple of questions and comments:
What is the installed cost of a unit with the automatic freeze protection and recirculating loop?
The average family of four uses 50-55 imperial (or about 62-70 US) gallons. Why do we need heaters that can provide the whole day's hot water needs in 5-6 minutes. When we put something like this in to save standby losses (about 2-3% in a well installed electric tank) and then abuse the # of gallons we use by long showers, etc, etc, etc.......the last easily cancels the first by a huge factor.
Are most of the water spills in houses from water heaters as you seem to single them out for spills and the outdoor heater saves us from all spills?
The re-circulation loop in a house is definitely a loser even with pipe insulation. It's just another parasitic heat loss that adds to the total. To mention parasitic losses, I think it was the Southface Institute in Colorado that calculated the following figure a few years back: The equivalent of 19 nuclear power plants supply electricity to keep our TV's, etc warm just so we can have the "instant on" feature!!!!!!
EX
I will attempt to respond, even though I have to say that your post feels like a targeted attack where I represent wasteful consumption and you represent level headed energy conservation. I'll take that position if you like.
I can't give you an installed cost of a water heater or a circulating loop; because the variables would make any estimate subject to questionable motives. Each install will have a unique set of cost constraints and few homes have circulating loops.
I do not recommend circulating loops but in many situations the options are either multiple water heaters, long waits for hot water or circulating loops. In the end it is a lifestyle choice. I use a loop in my 4200 square foot home. I use a timer with an override. My loop actually ends up running for only one hour per day on average. Most of our hot water use occurs during a short period of the day. We take two showers and do dishes at the same time almost every day. The last thing I do during each cycle is to turn the loop off and go in to shave which at low volume will not trigger the loop but drains the hot water out of the loop. In the winter, I don't bother as the heat loss is contributed to the heating load of the house. There are lots of ways of looking at these questions.
Can you provide a source for your statement "(about 2-3% in a well installed electric tank)"?
"Are most of the water spills in houses from water heaters as you seem to single them out for spills and the outdoor heater saves us from all spills?"
Some of the catastrophic leaks in homes are a result of water heaters and washing machine hoses. I would not recommend putting your washer outside but I would use braided hoses and put the water heater outside.
In response to your statement about circulating loops; the topic at hand is tankless water heaters. My statements about the implications of using one of the models with a circulating loop was my attempt to convey as much info about tankless heaters and my experience with them as possible.
I'll close by defending my position as the representative (in this post) of wasteful consumption. I live in a 4200 sq ft home in the country. I drive 60 miles round trip to work each day. I have an indoor grill with a huge vent hood, a hot water circulating loop, a 500 watt 50" plasma, and a stereo that requires three separate 20 amp breakers. My wife keeps the house cold in the summer and warm in the winter and my son takes 30 minute showers and sometimes longer.
How can I live with myself? My home is built with a unique building envelope system that limits my total energy consumption per month to 1000 KWh of electricity and 10 gallons of propane.(parasitic losses and all) Replacing my old refrigerator next year will reduce my bill by 200 KWh per month. I drive a Toyota Prius and I get 60 MPG on my daily commute for a total of one gallon per day. No, I don't live in a small inner city home and ride the bus. My lifestyle is luxurious by almost any standard but I take action to moderate my relative impact on the earth. I enjoy living on 33 acres with no close neighbors. When solar energy costs come down, I have enough south facing roof area to meet my peak demand and I will add panels to the top of my rainwater collection tank for charging the electric car I hope to own in five to eight years. In the meantime my wife and I will drive our twin Priuses and carpool when we can. I can live with that for now. By the way, my home received one of the highest scores ever given by the Austin green building program. The score of 198 points is in the top 1/10% of all the homes rated in the history of the program.
I am designing my next nome to be 2280 sq ft and use 500 KWh per month. You and I are actually comrades in the energy efficiency game but I approach it from a different angle. I think that people are unwilling to make energy conservation a priority in this country. I make it easy by designing homes with no lifestyle compromises and no high upfront costs. My homes operate on less than half of the energy of a comparable modern home. Thank you for the opportunity to speak on these issues. I apologize to the original poster for the parts of this post that are terribly off topic.
Experienced- Aren't you glad you asked?
better late than never ... from Piffin above:
"I always have the plumbers install a “heat trap”. Many don’t do this. It is a simple upside down U – like this;"
This only applies to conventional holding tanks ... the biggest problem with tankless heaters is people still think of them like conventional units ..
If you use a circulating loop, you will need a heat trap to avoid heat from siphoning into the cold water supply line, unless the supply line is below the heater and loop.
there is no heat to recycle in a tankless unit, the post wasn't talking about a heating system, just domestic HW ..
While I'm not a pro by any means, I did a fair bit of research, discussed tankless units with architects who specialize in energy efficiency, and installed one in my own home (although let a pro handle the plumbing).
For various reasons I installed a fairly beefy unit made by Takagi (http://www.takagi.com/web2003/c02.htm). This particular unit also is designed to bring its intake air for combustion from outside the home via a 3-inch duct, which in our case made sense because we control the inflow of air into the home carefully as part of our cold-weather energy-efficient design. So far so good after two plus years. Fairly pricey upfront cost (about $1,500 including the special cold weather backflow prevention device, the control unit, exhaust stuff, etc.). Total cost of ownership if you factor in gas (mine runs on propane) should end up being less than a conventional heater, depending on its life. Our well has moderately hard water, which my scale up the copper pipes after a while.
It's fine for a family of 3. It has the BTUs to produce hot water for multiple appliances running simultaneously, but one issue to be conscious of is if you're in the shower and somebody turns on the hot water full blast at the kitchen sink, your water temp. in the shower will drop a few degrees (I believe this is due to a drop in available water volume).
I've heard mixed reviews about the Rennai units but don't have personal experience. The Takagi seems very well made. Another issue to keep in mind is pilot vs. electronic ignition. Ours is electronic, which saves fuel but obviously puts you in the lurch during a power outage. We have a wood stove, however, which can heat water in a pinch.
I would definitely recommend going this route because of the energy efficiency, and I suspect this technology will become standard in the future, especially as the units improve. Just be sure to calculate your water usage requirements carefully and a unit with enough BTUs to handle it.
Edited 10/25/2005 12:21 pm ET by Megunticook
Ray:
Just lost a post to the stratoshpere that took about 2-3 hours with research to put together. Hate that feature here where you lose your unfinished post if you move to another browser. moving between 6-7 browsers all day and..... there it goes.
Any ways the short of it : Yes we are both concerned about energy. I used be the provincial energy analyst, writing and enforcing the gov't energy regulations for these appliances (92-01) and had discussions with many in the field.
About the 97-98% efficient tanks:
(1) in the US it's easy to find many federal, state and Utility programs stating an EF of .95 for better electric tanks.
(2) they do not test these units at their most efficient installations. They use heat traps but uninsulated ones. So now you have 2 - 3/4" copper heat wicks out of the top of the tank, especially if run at 140-160 deg. There are tanks with a low side inlet where the average temps are lower so lower heat loss. Still good to insulate pipes with heat traps installed here and on top for 3-6 feet.
The units are tested without any insulation added to the bottoms. The bottom of one unit with 3" foam insulation had only a fiberglass disk in its bottom to support the tank-no insulation- most likely due to weight. Most others have poorly insulated bottoms also. Usually there's enough free scrap on a jobsite to make a base of 1-2 inches of extruded polystyrene insulation and a plywood sheet to carry the tank. Stops heat loss to the cool/cold slab if in a basement as up here in cold climes.
They don't insulate over the PRV. Some manufacturers allow it, others don't. Can't see a problem unless you wan't to test the valve from the release lever.
So by buying a .94-.95 tank ($250 Canadian) and doing what I mentioned above + installing an insulation blanket ($30; total R now 15-16 on sides and top; 10+ on bottom), there's no reason to believe that you haven't achieved .97-.98 EF.
(3) From BC Hydro:
Energy factors for gas tankless water heaters range from around 0.69 to 0.84, compared with 0.55 for a conventional tank and 0.86 for an ultra-efficient tank heater. Conventional electric tank water heaters have an energy factor of about 0.87 compared with 0.91 for an ultra-efficient tank and 0.98 for electric tankless water heaters. (my comments: I don't know why they use .91 for tanks when just about evry other utility talks about .95; no sense using the .98 tankless electric as you have to upgrade electric entrance by at least 100 amps- that's not conserving)
(4) Choosing a tankless gas gets to be an EF # problem. Local gas rates are up 40-70% in NAmerica this winter. They will go up more next year as most distributers lock in wholesale prices for a year or so ahead. In 2000, benchmark Henry hub wholesale gas prices were US$1.95-$2.25 or so. Today the Nov futures wholesale contract was US$14.33. SO if you have a tankless with an EF of .74 or so, hot water will cost you a lot more since roughly 24% of the bought energy is exhausted to the air. The little standby losses of a good electric tank will look quite good.
On Business TV today, a couple of large bank energy analysts expressed that this tight gas situation or possible outright shortages will last until at least 2008 (it's just not a Gulf of Mexico problem) when they anticipate that a few LNG terminals will come in line so we can get gas from worldwide - especially some of the poorest countries. I hope we're not going to burn their futures for our extravagances!! I hope we pay them near the same for gas as we have to pay.
Anyways, I've been concerned about these issues since 1972 when I used to work in wildlife conservation, recycled, composted, grew an organic garden and used wood partially for heat. Switched to energy conservation in the period 77-78 and in 1980 had my own energy retrofit company. My current website is: http://www.ahi-ns.ca .
PS: I have found that in the energy conservation business people just jump at all the newest fads/claims (like the 1/4" foilfaced bubbles at +R14?????? or just sell me a black box) without examining the problem and adjusting themselves!!
Keep building leading edge abodes!!!
EX
Sorry about your losing your post.
I'd like to remind those that are following along that energy factors cannot be acurately compared between electric and gas water heaters. The EF rating of an electric water heater does not factor in the energy losses at the power plant or the transmission line losses. Electric generation is less than 50% efficient in this country while transmission losses average around 10% on top of that. Hot water is a good use of natural gas.
The Rinnai has an EF as high as .87.
That's why we need electric cogeneration with district heating, heat storage in ground til winter or something similar. In britain they have greenhouses near some power palnts to use the cooling water for winter heating and they get special night rates (when they idle generators) for lighting to extend the growing periods. Saves having to buy tomatoes etc from Spain.
Except for about 3% of the population (my guess), people make their energy decisions based on cost "at my pocket book/abode" . Many areas of the country don't have cheap (or formerly cheap) gas. With the move to tankless gas speeding up, those in other locales where gas is not available may make the move to tankless based on general misinformation.
I've been asked about tankless here many times as people read an article and assume that's the way to go-it's in the paper ain't it? The artciles are syndicated across the countries (USA and Canada) so get into the wrong areas. It doesn't make sense to put in a tankless electric over a good electric storage tank at $2,500 ($1,800 for the ugraded entrance and $700 for the heater) but people have been running it around their heads.
Maybe that's what got me started: Few posts were expressing any cautionary points!!
Got to get to bed- 2:07 AM here