I’m replacing a hot water heater and I’m curious about tankless heaters. They make way too much sense to me ( I remember seeing them in Europe in the early 80’s) but they don’t seem to have much favor in this country. I’ve been researching both gas and electric systems. Does anyone have anything good or bad to say about them. I’m alsmost ready to purchase one but I’m a little unsure. I have a 2000 sf two story house with 3 bathrooms – 2 with tub/shower on second floor, 1 with shower stall on first floor. I’m also on a well and septic so I know we won’t ever be using all three showers, running the laundry and dishwasher simultaneously.
I have gas service installed in house so I’m curious about gas vs. electric. Is one better or cheaper etc. I’m also curious about distributed (point-of use) electric systems which theoretically eliminate the distribution losses of the pipes. Also, the thought of having the water hot the instant it’s turned on will save a lot of water running into my dry well (as opposed to having to waste water while wainting for it to get hot).
I know these systems cost more to install but mfgr’s claim significant savings over time and I have read a study by NAHB which concluded some real savings in operating costs.
Replies
I have used a natural gas Takagi TK-1 with a water softener(VERY IMPORTANT!) on my well/septic/1800sqft 1.5 bath house for over 2 years. I see no reason to use a tank for this application.
Romansypko
Do you notice any difference between the tankless and your previous system? How many people in your family. Is the system noisy? I had heard one of the criticisms is the systems make a lot of noise. I was considering the larger TK-2 with a direct vent which can deliver approx 5 gal/min at 65 temp rise. In your opinion is this overkill? Was any regular maintenance recommended? If yes have you had it done and how expensive was it?
Tim
I went from a 40 gal. electric with a timer that ran it only 5 hours a day to my gas Takagi. No noise. Overkill depends on what you will use at the same time. Anybody who complains about regular maintenance is full of it, I unscrew the brass screen on the cold water inlet whenever I change my furnace or water filter. Takes 2 minutes. No service calls are needed.
Other posts have talked about expensive installs. NUTS! Cold in, gas in, electric in and hot water ,vent out. No more complicated than any other HWH.
I have the greatest plumber in the world and he, the inspector and the gas company guy(new install) all stood in my basement telling me that this machine would not work. 2 + years, hundreds of showers, loads of laundry and dishes later and no problems.
I did not have a water softener at first and had clogging due to hard well water. I installed a softener and Takagi sent me a NEW TK-1 because I brought the mineral clogging issue to their attention.
Everybody, tell me the last time you got this kind of customer support.
The plumbers I know usualy don't like them. Now that could just be unfamiliarity breeding contempt. The usual "knock" is that they have too many service calls.
Now, if I had to guess, the service calls come from a combination of things. First, just being different. I've heard gripes about the fittings--but that may be due to the way the units heat the water, and the contrary nature of retrofitting. The number one source of problems, I'm guessing, is improper sizing, The units can be very expensive, up front. In the grander scheme of things, the price evens out in not paying to heat water to x temperature 24/7. But, I'm told, there are people who are reluctant to pay full price for full price results. (Why those people don't just stick to their cheap, knock-off, gray-market units with 1/3 or 1/2 the life span of a reasonable unit escapes me.)
The successes I've known involved some careful planning and willing plumbers. That means gettins the mounting surface right, getting the plumbing runs right (no "scootching" the pipes over 1/8 or a 1/4 and "making it fit"). Also, getting the unit in the middle of the "demands" seems to work better. As does not "looping" the DHW system. (On a tank system, looping increases the amount of at least warm water available; with tankless, you are just adding more cold water to run out.)
There was a time years ago, when the hot new thing in plumbing tech was "point delivery." The europeans were using a small tankless unit ate each hot water demand. So, the bathroom would have a unit tucked next to the shower, and the hot water was only distributed a short distance. This seems to have not caught on for two reasons. First is was better suited to european construction when working in building only converted for indoor plumbing the last century or so. Second, european power is already 220 or 208, or the like, so there was little trouble adding in the needed outlets. Adding a 20 or 40 amp 220 circuit at every bathroom and the kitchen is an expenisve proposition in american homes.
Oops, meantthe reply to go to tim, the original poster. Sorry for any confusion.
Edited 10/1/2003 12:30:41 PM ET by CapnMac
Gas is definitely cheaper than electric. An electric heater that could heat water as fast as you could shower with it draws a huge amount of power so it's not as simple as plugging it in.
If you have a functioning water heater now I wouldn't hurry to buy a tankless without some research. This topic has come up a lot here. If you search the archives over the last few years you'll find way more than you want to know.
There have been many discussions in this forum. I am in the camp who has one (BOSCH 250SFX) natural gas. Very very pleased. Summer gas bill dropped more than half. Hard to tell in winter as MN winters in a 1903 heat sieve is costly.
Only complaint on my end is that when you are not using hot water, the flame is off. So the percolation through the house that normally happens with a tank HWH, is non-existent, and you need to wait for the hot water to make it through the pipes to your faucet. Also, there is a delay for the unit to fire up (~3 seconds) so if you are doing the dishes in the sink and pulsing the hot water to rinse, it will not be enough to fully fire up the water heater and you end up not getting hot water after a while. Just fill the other basin for rinse. So as far as complaints go, not that big a deal. I will take my $15+/mo savings for that inconvenience. :)
Hi,
What about service on your unit. Have you had any service problems? The archives here have made many mentions of the need for service but no specifics. I spoke with Takagi rep today and he mentioned your unit is actually manufactured by Takagi and is the same as their TK-1 model. I specifically asked about service. He mentioned there was a filter that should be checked on the cold water side anually but I could easily do that myself. What if anything elso needs an anual service call?
I installed the unit myself. I could not find any plumber who would be willing to do it or who I felt would be knowledgeable in doing it. The manual has many recommendations and was well written. Now that you mention it, I should check the filter.
I hesitate to mention this, for fear of proving the point as to why a pro should always install your TLWH... The <<FIRST ONE>> that I installed I vented out the chimney; worked great. Then I changed it to vent out the side of the house. That model has a power vent to allow this, very cool. I did not have proper backdraft preventers installed the first time and after a few weeks of really cold weather, the hot water stop being hot. I went to the basement and tested the basin in the sink. When the hot water was on, the unit would hemmorage water in buckets. Turn off the hot water, the waterfall would stop. Pretty cool to look at, not cool to think of the $980 that the unit cost. Luckily I called the service number and they said bring it back to the orange box and exchange for a new one off the shelf. Now with a better backdraft fitting, I have been using it for a year, through a pretty darn cold winter with no problems.
If you take the front off one of these units it looks like the engine compartment of a Japanese car. Wires and tubes and copper running everywhere, without an inch to spare. I think the big concern, it concerns me a bit too, is that there is that the mechanics are not as straightforward as a standard tank WH. But it is very smartly made and has a good track record when installed correctly.
Another thought: there is a school of thought wherein you MUST install a water softener before the unit to prevent calcifying the insides of the pipes in the unit. The thought being that as the water is so rapidly heated, if there are minerals in the water they will somehow be drawn to the sides of the pipe inside the unit. I have also heard of folks using a unit for many years without softening the water with no adverse results. I live in the city with heavily processed water and am banking on it not being a problem.
Final thought: The manual was written better than most I have seen. Some grammatically perfect tidbits in there. My favorite being. "Now enjoy an endless supply of limited hot water." Sounds like an oxymoron but if you think about it it is perfectly accurate! :)
First of all, gas will be much more cost effective than electric unless you live where gas is unusally cheap and the electric is unusally expensive. Secondly, I suggest that you read the energy savings claims with a grain of salt. First of all, a typical gas tank-type heater will only cost between $150 and $200 per year to operate. If you save one third of that energy, that is about $60/year. In order to save that $60/year, you will pay hundreds more for the heater, hundreds more for the installation and you will have a device which has a recommended annual service call which will cost more than the amount you are saving.
Most importantly, there is the issue of can the heaters produce enough hot water. If you have three baths and an active family, you may have some difficulty. Where do you live, if you live in cold climates where incoming water is in the 40 degree range, there is no heater on the market which can produce more than 2.5 gpm of hot water. That is very easy to exceed in a family with a bunch of kids.
I suggest looking at the following links:
http://www.askbuild.com/cgi-bin/column?451
http://www.stateind.com/new/Tankless_WhitePaper.pdf
Good luck,
Bill
First you need to edit your first sentence. I think that you got it backwards.
But also I think that you should add a disclaimer to your post that you work for a company making tank type heaters.
Does working for AOSmith require a disclaimer? I would prefer to think that because I make a living developing new water heating technology, I am better informed about the facts involved with water heaters than the average person. In fact, AOSmith makes tankless water heaters for markets outside the US but do not sell the units in the US because we do not feel they will meet the expectations of the average American family.
In any forum that I have participated in the assumption is that when any one post a recommendation for or against some product or brand that it is based on their personal experience.
Not one that has a finacial stake in the recommendation.
It gives what you say more crediblity to see you post the disclaimer upfront rather than downloading the file and seeing that it comes from a WH manufacture and your name is on it.
Old tank was electric on a timer. New HWH is gas tankless.
Is this clear enough for you now?
How could I work for a TANK type company if my entire post is about the virtues of tankLESS equipment.
OK I give up I'll use smaller words next post.
Oops, sorry didn't see who you were replying to.
First one's on me.