Can anyone quote me the TCA guidelines for layout of ceramic floor tile? I have 4 small restrooms (about 8×10 ft each) with 18″ ceramic tile. The architect drew a grid on the finish plan, mostly to show which areas got ceramic, or vct, or carpet, and in which direction to lay it out. Unfortunately the plans show the tile starting at the door and working toward the back, so the installer did exactly that. As a result, I have a 4″ rip of tile along the back wall. He also started with a full tile behind the potty, and that created a 9-10″ tile along the prominent wall.
So I politely asked why he didn’t balance the layout, and he said he was just following the plans. There is a paragraph in the spec book that says to follow TCA guidelins, so I need to find out if TCA says to baklance the layout.
He did a very good job of keeping the joint lines strsaight and very little lippage, and I commended him for that. But the layout problem bothers me. I’ll post a pic when I find one.
“Put your creed in your deed.” Emerson
“When asked if you can do something, tell’em “Why certainly I can”, then get busy and find a way to do it.” T. Roosevelt
Replies
I don't think the TCA speaks to layout at all.
The only place I could see it being an issue (from the TCA's POV) is if a tile is cut too thin and will not be strong enough to keep from cracking.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Any good tiler will use his experience to make the tile look the best despite what the plans "call for" or look like. He should of had a five minute talk with you describing his layout and what the plans say. Just because the plans looked a certain way that doesn't mean the architect was planning anything regarding layout. It could of been how the CAD program made it look.
I agree. In this case it wouldn't take five minutes to create a more pleasing layout. The guy wasted more time telling jokes to his coworkers that day. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Well you're certainly no help. :)
here's a pic. Tiles are 18", except the back row is about 3".
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
That never should have happened.Well, there are times where it might be desired, but normally when you get into a layout that results in all full tiles with a single thin filler, it's often best to take to take a balanced amount off of each side of the room.But the architect supplying drawings? It's him. The mechanics of the installation can be according to TCA, but the archy gets the hit for a lazy layout.The tiler, seeing the out-of-the-norm drawing, it would have been plenty fine had he asked about the layout prior to snapping his lines.I'm really quite tired of uncommunicative people.FWIW, I used to write on plans "See (my name and phone #) for final tile layout."
Not a tile setter here but given the narrow piece used as the filler how else could he have balanced it? Splitting the difference leaves you 2 narrow strips, one at each side of the room. Looks to me that the tile is the wrong size for that rooms dimensions.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Should have split it. The split is worked out by adding the width of the narrow tile to a full tile and dividing that by two. That way, the tiles are always greater than 1/2 the tile size.In this case, it looks like about a 2" narrow tile, so if done correctly the margin tiles at either end of the field would be about 10" rather than a 2" and an 18".
Got it. I went brain dead when I looked at the pic. Thanks .
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
I agree with all who say that it's not something to worry about.You gave the tile sub a set of plans that show the tile being installed a certain way. In my experience, this kind of detail is not often seen in residential (we don't work with interior designers or architects that often) but it is very common in commercial.If I were subbing to you, I would follow the plans for both the floor and ceiling layout. It would be a good idea to take the time to call you if a layout looked "off", but how far are you going to take that? If his lines are straight and you have little lippage, I think you've gotten a pretty good job.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Got a picture of the plans? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I will get a scan of that portion of the floor and post it."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I just looked through my 2007 copy of TCA and didn't see anything about layout.
We, as an architectural office generally provide a tile layout drawing based on the actual tile to be used and balance it within the room or hide the cuts in the least obvious part of the room. Final layout is to be coordinated on site between our office, the gc, and the installer's foreman.
Your architect needs to be contacted to review the installation. Does he have a CYA note regarding material layout on the drawings? Did the installer have anyone review his layout prior to starting?
The finish plan on the drawings was supposed to be conceptual to show the tile being square to the room, because there are other areas in the building where the tile is diagonal. I looked at the drawing with the tile installer, and it shows about half a tile at the back wall, so there was something not quite right with the drawing. I just find it incredible that the tiler would not at least ask for verification once he snapped his layout lines. And I'm pizzed at the gc superintendent for not catching it. I would have been embarrased to present that as a final product. "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
For commercial work I wouldn't get into a big snot about it unless maybe I owned the place.
Most visible floor/wall intersections should have full tile if it works, otherwice a layout that is centered.
[email protected]
Guess I'm going to go against the grain and say you're being a little to picky.... This is commercial work right? No one is going to notice enough to make a stink about it.
The tile guy is going to blame the drawings, the architect is going to say it's not his fault, you're going to be stuck in the middle of it trying to force an issue you can't win.
There is nothing you are going to come up with that any judge or arbitrator (if you went that far) is going to look at and tell the tile guy to rip out and start over.
There is no way to push the liability onto the architect either.
Is this something you really want to waste hours and hours fighting only to end with the same result you have now?
Ok, you're the second person to say that this is commercial work, so don't be picky. Why are you saying that commercial work should have lesser standards than residential work? Especially when commercial work is usually more structured with regard to contracts, drawings, and specifications? Are you saying that a HO should expect to get good quality work for their money, but it's ok for a bank to accept substandard work?
I have already accepted the tile in the 4 rerstrooms. All four had the same problem with the layout. The installer did an excellent job keeping the joint lines strauight, and there is almost no lippage, so i weighed those factors in my decision. But if he is a professional tiler, shouldn't he have at least snapped chalk lines and then mentioned to the super that it did not look right?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
If you're looking for the same standards as residential, then it seems like you need to further train your super. Where was he at?In residential the project manager talks to the tiler about layout before he starts. All rooms are different and there are many types of tile and sometimes you want a full tile at a focal point. there are to many variables to leave it to chance
Barry E-Remodeler
I'd suggest this.
Given being that this guy probably does a lot of commercial work, maybe a lot for your company.
He did the layout as close as he could to mimic the "plans".
Sure-ur than shid, if he deviated and did what was "right", some clown would be crawling up his #### right now just as you are inquiring of your BT buddies here.
"Why isn't the layout according to plans?"
He knows better by now.
It looks like you got a decent job for a bathroom in a bank.
I'm not sure where you want to take this.
Eric[email protected]
Ok, you're the second person to say that this is commercial work, so don't be picky
I'm with you on this.
One thing about my old office was that they'd get picky about how I elevated tile, but not so much about plan views. Now, part of that was in one principal always wanting some sort of pattern, even if only a color change. So, when I'd ask what size of tile was being used, I'd get told "it doesn't matter, just draw them 4" the specs'll cover it . . . " Except there was nothing in spec to say "if any question about layout, contact the architect." Which would have been easy language; otherwise, it's down to the GC (mostly) as written.
Now "don't be picky, it's commercial" rubs wrong to me too. The "why" of that is simple. Everyplace where the people took the care to do it right always stands out. A chain outfit put in a multiplex not long ago in town. It's spiffy. In the bathrooms--a throw-away room for many operators--they are tiled, patterns & shapes & sizes. Somebody took the effort to lay out the patterns so that the diagonal tiles in the corners are proportional and matched. It's quality that shows, and is remarked upon not just by people "in the biz" too.
But, that's me; others differ.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Commercial work? Not picky?
When I wuz working in the commercial side of the biz, I had the good (?) fortune to rep my firm's work on a Donald Trump job.
Those of you doing res work for picky clients have absolutely NO IDEA of the kind of gauntlet you run when doing a job for Trump. No idea.
A tilesetter would have been deep sixed in the East River for running a finish strip in a bath like in the pic shown in this thread. His super, too.
Here is a pic of the place. Trump Park Avenue, corner of Park Avenue and 59th Street, in midtown Manhattan. Prices range from $1.1 mil for a 1 BR, up to over $18 mil for a 5 BR duplex with rooftop gardens.
Re-do of a glamourous old apartment hotel. We did all the windows and terrace doors.
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"A stripe is just as real as a goddamn flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Gene, big difference between a local and bank and what you were talking about.
don't complicate a good story with reality man ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Slightly different fruit wouldn't you agree Gene?
Where ya been? They've been looking for you...........[email protected]
Gene, in a former life I was a project engr working for the gc doing the Arco Tower in dallas. it was an I M Pei job, and I think I remember that Philip Johnson was tyhe lead archy. That one was detailed to death. it was a 49 floor building in the shape of an equilateral triangle, and everything lined up: joints in the granite, windows, ceiling tile layout (on the base wall), light switches were perferctly placed, and we had to adjust the framiong in the restrooms so there were zero cut tiles. It was a beautiful building, but very understated. Once you picked up on the details, it was a jewel to look at. Even the granite flooring joints in the sidewalk aligned with the building joints."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
I have a habit of looking over commercial tile layouts when I see them. Usually in bathrooms.Nine out of ten were not "layed out", the tiles were simply laid. Slivers were all over the place.So I would guess that if one wants good layout on a commercial tile job, then one is going to have to make the effort to ensure it is done that way.A lesson learned I'm guessing.
Rich Beckman
PeachFest!! $85 per adult, Children under devouring age will be $25, Children under 5 - Free
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Mail the check to Rich Beckman, 3324 S. 600 E., Marion, IN 46953
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Being a commercial contractor I will say it's time to hold the tile co accountable or find another contractor. There is no reason this should have happened. A 30 sec. conversation would have been all it takes. The rule of thumb at least out here is to have equal boarders unless otherwise noted, regardless how he interprets the plans. If I would have installed it that way I would have been asked to redo it at my expense.ML
I'm right with you. "It's commercial, so who cares" would get me in serious hot water with the designers and architects I work with. There are few, if any, perfect tile layouts, but just starting full tile & running is nuts.
I'm not saying you should accept lesser quality, and from the sounds of it the quality of the installation is acceptable. It's an aesthetic issue that in my opinion is different then the quality of the installation.
The reason I stated it is "commercial work" was for a number of reasons. Most of them based on assumptions (Yeah I know ;) )
What I've seen in my limited experience with commercial work is that it is mostly cost driven, so getting the lowest price often comes with trade offs. Maybe that's not an issue with your job.
Second, and more important IMO, most of your customers to the bank, and the bank employees for that matter, are not going to notice anything is "wrong" with the lay-out. It's not an issue that the owner is going to look at everyday and get mad over.
While I agree it doesn't sound like an ideal layout it doesn't sound horrible either. My main point is that this is not an issue you're likely to get resolved in a manner that will not cost you more money to fix the problem. You would spend a lot of time an energy and all you would end up with a bunch of people pointing fingers at other people and likely at the end of it, you'd still not have the tile replaced.
In the future it shouldn't happen again and next time you'll probably learn something new that needs to be verified before installation....
Edited 4/25/2008 9:58 am ET by CAGIV
U ever look down when U walk into any commercial building?
99.99% of them start a full tile at the door or long wall and away ya go.
and yes ... commercial work does have different levels of finish than residential.
especially tile.
I sub tile.
I don't do commercial work.
and when I sub residential tile ... most of my explaining the price revolves around my attention to detail on layout.
U want it fast or perfect.
willing to pay above the going rate for a better job?
bet the business doesn't lose much money do to that small row of tiles.
bet they're also not willing to pay more for a better job.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Glad you replied Jeff. You're right about starting a full tile at the front door and going in, and in fact when we do the lobby we will look closely, select what we think is the best starting point, and just run the tile. The room is too big and odd shaped to try to analyze the whole thing. But there were roughly 8x10 square rooms, no offsets or odd angles.
I can assure you we are paying a fair price for this. I will be out for a long weekend, but when I get back i will try to calculate the installation cost. I'm pretty sure we have the numbers broken out for labor and material.
Do we want it fast? That's not even an issue any more. 10,000 sf 2 floor building, and the gc is 9 months behind schedule. More importantly, we are not pushing the tiler. "Here's the room, you can start on X-day, when will you be done?" he has already told us that he will need to block off the entire lobby area for 3 days when he does the work, and we're accomodating him.
Where am i going with this cag? I dunno know ... just ranting about a very frustrating project and lack of quality work. "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
again ...
I'm not gonna go and say lack of quality.
then again ... I have no idea of the level of finish you typically build to.
But ... I'm not at all suprised that layout happened in a commercial setting.
like I said ... that situation is one of my best selling points.
there are great commercial tile setters ...
who have commercial speed and a residential layout mentality ...
who can also lay them nice and flat to boot.
but they are few and far between.
just not the norm.
I also usually lay out for a prospective client ... especially if it's a larger job ...
that 9 outta 10 "real tile setters" can come in and blow my prices away.
so if their design and layout are simple and square ... I'll give my bid ...
but I will definitely be the highest bidder and by far.
FT / commercial guys blow my speed away.
But ... I never leave ya with a sliver.
ok ... once ... but it was 3 rooms away and behind a toilet ...
I'll kinda agree with some of the others ...
if these tile guys are actually reading the prints ...
just time to start some wording on "centered" or "avoid slivers" ...
or what ever fancy talk the Archy's can come up with to clarify.
I actually just found a FT / commercial guy who does the occasional residential job and does it well. He's signed up to help me lay the next house which has a way too tight time line. I can only think of 2 other carps I'd bring anywhere to back me up.
so now I got one step above that ... a real tile guy who's got an eye for layout and final fit and finish.
I'm hoping to learn some tricks from him!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The installation looks good and, as has been said, it's commercial. If it really bothers you check the specification. The specs we write always state to provide a tile layout and make sure the tile is balanced.
For what it's worth, in virtually every tiled bathroom I have ever been in in Europe one wall edge always has a full tile and the opposite wall edge has a sliver. Maybe it's a regional thing (even in the USA).
Jeff, with regard to what we're paying for the tile work, the best I can come up with is the total value of floor covering labor ($27,000) and the total size of the building (9,610 sf) which works out to an average of $2.80/sf for labor only, and that includes ceramic, vct, and carpet."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
What did the framing (metal studs) and drywall run? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
You want me to just send you a complete set of the contract docs? :)
Sending you an email. Hope your profile is up to date. "Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
LOL. I got the email fine, thanks. Four small restrooms tells me this is an office building of sorts. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Can you read a pdf? I will send a floor plan."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Yes, I do most of our takeoffs from PDFs now.Thanks. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Ok, when I get back to the office I will send floor plans."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Ed, you are a victim of lack of training. It's rampant in the construction industry as you well know.
One of the subjects covered in my Carpentry apprenticeship training was tile layout. The first fundamental rule was to balance each edge equally, when working in a room with parallel walls. The next fundamental rule was to eliminate all edge pieces who's dimension was less than half the unit value.
So: if the skilled tile setter had attended our school or worked under me, he would know that the minimum acceptable border tile would be 9".
If there were conditions in that room that forced more than one border size, then all bets are off and the slivers will sometimes appear.
This is not about saving time, this is about training and education and pride in the job. It takes a mental math dunce about ten seconds to check the border sizes on an 8 x 10 room. Only a novice, or someone that doesn't care, would ignore that first step in the layout process.
Of course, the plans become the convenient excuse for everything. If push comes to shove, you can always refer to the clause that says : "do not scale....check with the architect when problems arise." The guy's explanation exposes his true skills or engagement in the process .
Skilled and caring tradesmen understand that the CAD lines don't equate to quality installations. Your installer will conveniently refer to the plans as "suggestions" when it fits his agenda and then refer to them as "absolute" when he wants it to fit his other agenda.
Just curious: does the cad layout show a full tile behind the toilet and the small rip along the main wall?
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Its good to see that others care about grout lines as much as i do. while i agree with others that the layout should have been balanced better, i like to take it step further. being a part time designer and part time builder i like to think through the plan more by selecting the tile and then adapting the framing to have full tiles. or full or half if its a running bond layout. i recently completed a bathroom that has 3x6 subway tile half way up the walls. i had my cabinet maker build the cabinet to say 30 3/8" tall, and then i added a 1" lip to a usual 2" concrete counter top. The final product not only has a three inch tile inline with the counter top but there is a full height tile at the floor.
its all about effort. and most people are lazy.
There's nothing in TCA, but there *may* be in the architect's specifications.
I always take great care with tile layouts and do 'real' ones on the plans (right scale, balanced layout, etc.)
Jeff
But of course, someone else pointed that out to me already..
I was having a brain dead day.