Hi all,
Iv’e made a few comments in the three months I’ve been here, but this is my first question. Y’all have given such great advice on many subjects.
I pulled off some baseboard in a house I am renovating and you could plainly see the sole plate was termite infested. I located a stud in the vicinity by finding a nail pop in the sheetrock. The sheetrock bowed easily indicating that the stud was severely infested too. I called the owner and he came by to look at it. He said just install the new baseboard and forget about it. He is fixing up the house to flip.
I said no, we need to look in the wall. He said his whole profit margin would go down the drain if the damage was bad enough. I started to get into disclosure when his cell phone rang and he walked to his car and drove off.
It was after five on Friday and I just packed up and left. Monday morning what do I do? I am considering notating the damage and the fact that he is ignoring it on the next invoice I give him. Will this cover my butt?
Replies
Hey Hammer, this could be a tricky one.
On the one hand, if you assist the present owner in concealing the termite damage (or if down the road somewhere someone could say that's what you did), it could get as serious as conspiracy to commit fraud.
On the other hand, you were hired to install new baseboards, depending on how limited the scope of the work and if no permits required, giving the owner written notice of the issue could be sufficient. Make sure you keep copies. To be real safe, get to owner to sign a copy indicating he was so notified.
If it were me, and I couldn't convince the owner to have the infestation treated and the damage assessed, I'd have to walk. The guy is talking about his profit margin falling if the damage is bad enough. How about the place falling if the damage is bad enough, right. How could someone just pop on a new base and cover it over? If the new owners down the road start looking for people to sue once they find it, how would you explain just covering it back over.
If you do walk, in addition to giving the owner written notice, take pictures of the areas you found showing the termites so if the owner tries to come back at you for not finishing the work or leaving him with no baseboards, you've got proof that you didn't just walk for no reason (this guy sounds like a real sleaze ball, so I'd watch my back in every way).
I also assume this owner had a termite inspector before he bought, so either the bug guy missed it or it's in a concealed spot. If his bug guy missed it, let him take that up with Mr. bugs. If it's in a concealed spot, it's probably not a good idea to have a hand in covering it back up.
If he didn't have a termite inspection before he bought it, then he's SOL all around.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Edited 3/25/2006 6:25 pm ET by philarenewal
Edited 3/25/2006 6:25 pm ET by philarenewal
Thanks for the reply. I am not looking to walk, just cover my rear when the new owners one day find the damage. I am doing a whole house remodel and am about 1/2 way through. The damage is old, non-active, on an exterior wall under a gable end so no rafters rest on the wall. The total extent of the damage is unknown, but from prior experience it could be extensive.
Here in SC you have to sign a disclosure form mentioning everything that is known to be wrong with the house when you sell. The owner is just asking for it if it is ever discovered. I want the blame game to stop with him. I probably need something signed by the owner instead of me just noting it on an invoice. He could just toss it.
I am a homeowner who had a similar experience. I live in West Seattle, termite town for our area. The previous owner was a sheisskopf from NYC who had never owned a home before. He put non pressure treated walk ways all around the house. They were full of termites. He put down pvc and beauty bark to cover the weeds. 4 times! The year I moved in was a record rain year and the yard was a lake! I spent 2 years digging plastic out of the ground and putting in french drains. My home inspector had dung for brains and saw nada. We paid 2k for treatment of the property.
This is not an inconsequential issue. We had to sister in 2x4s to reinforce bug ridden stringers. We have a service contract for 200 bucks a year.
Do the right thing. I have given the inspector bad reviews for years. Our carpenter, who confirmed the problem, I give rave reviews too. Sage advice: Pay the home inspector to satisfy the bank. Then pay a carpenter to satisfy the homeowner. Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
BTW - was it you who got the permit for the work, or was it the guy who hired you? Or maybe it was all cosmetic stuff (new paint, molding, etc) and didn't need a permit...
Edited 3/26/2006 8:56 am ET by Matt
Matt,
I pulled the permit. The scope of work entails, a new kitchen, new moulding and hardwood floors, HVAC, tile, paint in and out, etc...Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
>>The damage is old, non-active,I'm curious as to what you base that conclusion on?The termite inspectors I work with daily will rarely, if ever, say anything more than "no activity seen at the time of the inspection."Breaking open tubes won't always reveal activity even when there is activity in the house
Fighting Ignorance since 1967
It's taking way longer than we thought
I'm curious as to what you base that conclusion on?
In the area that was visible, there was virtually no wood left, it was dry with no impacted channels filled with termites or their waste. Yes they could have moved on to another location in the house, but in that location it was inactive. Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
This thread has gotten my attention for a couple of reasons....
Here in N'awlins there has been a HUGE problem with Formosan termites. If the guy tells you to fix it and forget it, then notate it on your invoice and move on. I have run into a lot of people that try to pinch pennies to flip houses and a lot of them collapsed during the storms that hit here. I can't force them to do things right and I am not going to waste my time trying to convince them to spend it. I, hovever' cover my butt and write it out on the invoice and have them sign it, then I cash the check and move on..... Eventually they call me back to fix it after a LICENCED contractor screws it up, charges them twice as much, and then leaves the job half-finished.
Which transitions to the next thing I was getting into.... I and all of my clients have had horrible experiences dealing licenced contractors for many reasons. The biggest reason being that most don't care about doing a good job, just a profitable one. Why hire good skilled labor, who uses a tape measure more than a caulk gun when caulk is soo cheap???
I would rather be called a carpenter than a caulkenter any day, even though I don't make as much coin at the end of the day because I take pride in my work.
This could be a mess in the future 'woodnutter'. I know little about termites as bugs or structural damage and the consequences of such damage but I do know a little about the bug's legal rights. They have plenty. Termite damage is one of the structural issues that enjoys strict liability when it comes to selling and deeding a home. If it is there the seller is strictly liable for the damage the little critters cause. In some states that damage is not limited to actual but could also inlcude punative damages - some poor schmuck falls through the floor etc.There is an old saying about the papers folks sign between themselves in contract actions - those papers and signatures are worth the paper they are written on and not much else. That is not to say don't get this termite mercinary to not sign - by all means get him to do just that with as much detail in your disclaimer as you can think to throw in. The problem is the likely law suit down the road when the new buyer finds out his home is a McDonalds for bugs. He will sue everybody and anybody and even thought you possess little or no liability you have to call an attorney to get you out of the mess and there go your profits. Better off to leave the board off the wall - photograph the damage - leave a written copy of you findings there - send one to the ownere certified mail - save one in a safedeposit box - save pics also - send a copy to city inspector. Or for a minimal amount go see an attorney now - some attorney must need a door replacement or wall repair and exchange good/services - to save yourself in the future.Just my thinking is all. Who invented termites anyway?Mike
There are other things to consider as well, like was that a load bearing wall you were working with?
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
>>There are other things to consider as well, like was that a load bearing wall you were working with?
Have to disagree with you there.
#1 -- termites are in the sole plate of a wall and up at least one stud. If it's an exterior wall, even if that wall isn't holding the roof or any joists, and even if it's not needed to resist wind (lateral load of the weight bearing walls) -- two big ifs -- it does hold finish surfaces that will crack, might also have doors and windows that won't open or close, when it eventually settles. Not good.
#2 -- If it's not an exterior wall, the termites got to that wall from the exterior thorough other framing. Worse.
#3 -- even termites in an interior partition wall (happened to me once -- they climbed up through a crack in the basement slab, up a basement partition, into the framing and ate several joists, including the rim) will eventually eat their way into the structure.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Edited 3/25/2006 8:23 pm ET by philarenewal
I agree with everything you typed... I'm not sure what you were disagreeing with. I just wanted to raise possible structural concerns, like the ones you illustrated.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
>>"I agree with everything you typed... I'm not sure what you were disagreeing with. I just wanted to raise possible structural concerns, like the ones you illustrated."
I misunderstood you then. I thought you were trying to say maybe if it wasn't a load bearing wall then it would be OK to leave it. Reading too much into it.
My mistake.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Holy,
That sounds like a real Mother Flipper you're working for. I am a GC in Florida and the flippers have gotten out of hand around here. I do some re-hab work and it is all above board. I think I am the only guy in town who pulls permits and does them right. I don't think I would work for him again if you can stand it. I have a neighbor who is a flipper/investor and I gave him a heated lecture recently about hiring licensed trades. He insisted it was victimless and he was just trying to make a $. I disagreed and told him he was a disgrace. What about the family that buys that house you patch up I asked. They may use their savings to get in that shat box. "You make 20K on a flip and hire young kids and unlicensed trades to butcher it up" I said to him. Well Friday I got a little justice. I came home to see several plumbing company trucks in his driveway. It seems one of his Handy Randys installed a toilet for him at his own home and not only cracked the toilet they screwed up the flange and flooded the house. Then the genius had the nerve to ask for my advice. My advice. HIRE LICENSED CONTRACTORS. I have no sympathy for these unethical profiteers. They should have to abide by the building and safety codes just like all of us. If I was you I would open the wall and report him to the building dept.(even if anonymously) and bill him for my time and hound him till he paid. In the end you have to look yourself in the mirror and decide if you can live with concealing the obvious problem.
Just my .02
Scott
Edited 3/25/2006 9:33 pm ET by scottthebuilder
Scott,
He's not a bad guy, Iv'e known him for awhile, he's just scared that this damage is just the tip of the ice berg. Monday I'll tell him from my experience, it's better to pay now for boards and sheetrock than pay later for lawyers and depositions.
He is using all licensed trades. I'm the GC and I won't use anything but.
HHConstructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
I agree about 90% with what you say but sometimes the code & permits are just to protect fools from other fools or from themself.... where i am if i replace a toilet wax ring "i've broken the seal" and this requires a permit and an inspection... running phone wire requires the same... a wall switch or outlet, ect... I'm sorry but it's my f*&k'n house and if i screw it up i'm a big boy i'll fix it... Just asking tdo you pull a permit for every service you perform?
p
P
I got nailed by the inspector for working without a permit a few years back on a small repair. So after that I permitted EVERYTHING no matter haw small. After about a week and six inspections later the same inspector tells me to stop permitting everything, there are only four inspectors in town and they share a hundred inspections a day. They don't have time for the small stuff. Go figure!?!
HHConstructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
In Fla. the statutes read anything over $1500 performed by a GC needs a permit. To answer your question NO, I don't always pull permits, however I do always use licensed tradesmen and insist they have proper insurance and licensure as required. I agree with the point that it is crazy to pull permits always as it would make service and small repairs very expensive. I carry licensure that cost thousands to obtain. I answer to a state board and misappropriation of funds or fraud on my part is a felony. If a flipper/investor does something wrong he is only required to pull permits and get required inspections and bring work to code. If you don't carry a license you ncan't get it taken away. Maximum fine is 100% of the cost of the permit. Most of the time this is a slap on the wrist. If the backside is 20-30K or more they are not worried about the posibilty of a few hundred bucks. Here they would fur it out and put new sheetrock up and paint it and flip it to the next sucker. I have seen houses change hands 5-6 times in "re-assignments" before they are even touched.
Scott
Having a CL doesn't mean the work will be top quality or correct. There are many LC's around here that I won't recommend because of their shoddy work. In fact, I get called alot to redo some of their work correctly!!! I just redid some supports for a 2nd floor on a lanai that had been boxed in, I thought just for looks, but no - they were covered over because they did not line up with the mounts in the concrete pad. To put a new decorative cover on, meant cutting out the old mounts and pouring new ones with Simpson brackets in the correct position. This was originally done by a LICENSED CONTRACTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How this passed inspection is another mystery, unless they left the one done correctly open for the inspector to see and hurridly covered the other three that were off.
I probably do more termite damage repair in my area than any other contractor ( the word is that I'm the only one simple enough to get into a wet, dirty crawl space). Anyway, I found the key to be that you can repair only what you can see, and you state that on your invoice, report, or whatever. That way if the seller gets involved in litigation later, you are covered.
I'm a lawyer in PA, not SC, so standard cautions apply regarding my knowledge (or, more appropriately, lack thereof) of the law in SC, but, in PA, you have no duty to do anything other than what the guy hired you to do since you do not really know that he intends to make any misrepresentation to the future buyer. For all you know, he'll tell them there is termite damage, but that it was no big deal, and give them a few bucks off the price.
However, I like your suggestion to put it on your bill. I've seen this a couple of times where, for example, a plumber will put on his bill that he opened the drain, but the owner should have the line inspected with a camera to determine if there are permanent problems. It's the owner's duty to disclose defects to a subsequent buyer, not yours. So the subesquent buyer could not successfully sue you. However, if the seller of the house gets sued for failure to disclose, he may just point the finger at you and say it was your fault for not telling him. Unless you have a copy of your bill with the notification on it, it'll be your word against his.
The guy sounds like a creep. If it was me, I'd put my card in the wall with a note that you noticed the damage and told the owner. Date it and seal it up. If the subsequent buyer finds it when doing repairs (which is likely), you'll be the first one they will call, you'll show them your invoice, and the flipper will be stuck bigtime.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Hi Mike, I'm also a lawyer in PA although I no longer practice.
Couple things to maybe consider from a "risk management" perspective. A contractor can be liable to a subsequent purchaser for "construction defects." The OP is doing a pretty fair amount of work and has discovered termite damage in the structure of the building. By his own admission, his experience is that damage like this goes deeper than the eye can see.
Do you think it could be possible for a subsequent buyer to allege (with a straight face) that doing the scope of reno he is doing without repairing the termite damage is a "construction defect" and therefore he (his insurer) should be tagged for it? That's what I'd be concerned about and I could see it happening. Given the facts, I agree with you 100%. My concern would be that the current owner does not disclose and the OP ends up twisting in the wind when the new buyer is looking for a deep pocket and the "facts" are not as crystal clear to the fact finder. To add to the risk, the OP has a hand in concealing the damage.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
"A contractor can be liable to a subsequent purchaser for "construction defects." . . . Do you think it could be possible for a subsequent buyer to allege (with a straight face) that doing the scope of reno he is doing without repairing the termite damage is a "construction defect" and therefore he (his insurer) should be tagged for it?"
Can he allege it? Sure! Successfully? I doubt it. OP says his scope of work was replacing the baseboards. If the roof leaks on him while he's doing it, is he responsible for replacing the roof? Nope. So long as he properly does the job for which he was hired, I don't think he has any liability.
"To add to the risk, the OP has a hand in concealing the damage."
I think that's a bit of a stretch. He's replacing baseboards that, apparently for other reasons, need to be replaced anyway. He has no knowledge that the owner will not disclose the termite damage to the buyer. He may suspect so, but his suspicions may be wrong. I see no action he could take at this point to make sure any subsequent buyer is protected, given the scope of work for which he was hired and has been authorized to do. He could walk off the job, and take a financial hit, but that wouldn't help the poor sucker who buys this house later. The owner would just get someone else to complete the baseboards or do it himself. (Let's hope the buyer gets a good home inspector!) I think he has fulfilled his obligation if he notifies the owner, in writing, that there is evidence of termite damage, that repairing it was not in the scope of his employment and that the owner is responsible to follow up elsewhere with inspection/repair.
All that said, people sue all the time on claims much weaker than this and, although they are usually not successful, the cost of defending is often the worst part of the ordeal. Heck, that's why everybody hates us lawyers! <G>
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Better make that a PLASTIC business card!
"Better make that a PLASTIC business card!"
LOL! I hadn't thought of that! You're right, of course. If the buggers are still there, they'll probably just eat that card for lunch!
Oddly enough, I just spent the last two weeks repairing termite damage on my own house. It was my parents house and, 20-odd years ago, I noticed some termite tunnels and warned them. They got the termites exterminated, but never did anything about checking for, or fixing, any damage. The first floor joists looked fine -- just sounded a bit hollow when you tapped on them. No other evidence of any structural problems. I bought the house from my mother several years ago and have been gutting and rehabbing, one room at a time. When I finally got around to pulling up the living room carpet, I discovered that the bugs had eaten right through the hardwood flooring in a few places. So I started to rip out wood. And just kept going and going and . . . .
It was amazing to see what looked like good wood on the surface had actually been reduced to stage props - 1/8" of wood skin and almost totally hollow in the middle! I had to replace 8' of rim joist and 4'X22' of flooring, including joists and subfloor. It's a wonder the floor hadn't collapsed long ago between the termites and incredibly lame construction techniques! (It's a good thing they DON"T build 'em like they used to!)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
That's what kept the floor up, they were holding each others legs (hands).
>>"It was amazing to see what looked like good wood on the surface had actually been reduced to stage props "
Youch! Good thing you got to it when you did. You were going to replace that floor anyway. ;-)
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I'm scared to death!! What do I do if I see termites/damage in future work?
I totally don't know. Guess I'll just pack up and run and don't charge the lost customer.
Either that or rebuild the entire place for free. OUch.
I'm scared to death!! What do I do if I see termites/damage in future work?
What would you do if your job was to remo a kitchen, you open up the kitchen ceiling and find several unsupported floor joists below a bathroom above (actually happened to me once)? OK, I mean what would you do after getting the heck out of that room.
To make it more analogous to the termites, it looks like the joists are unsupported just hanging in mid air, but you can't see if there might be other framing elsewhere that supports the floor above. It's something that good judgement tells you needs more of a look.
The owner tells you "just cover it over -- I enlarged the kitchen years ago; bathroom floor's always felt a little soft since then but it's been fine for years and I'm selling the place anyway." Also says "no need to open up anything further to check the framing, just cover it over and forget about it."
It's a dilemma. No matter what though, whatever notice I gave that owner, I wouldn't just rock it over and forget it. I honestly don't know exactly what I would do. But I know what I would not do.
I think I would try to convince the owner that more investigation is necessary. If the owner absolutely refused to allow a closer look and at least a little more investigation into the extent of the problem at hand, I'd have to walk. Just isn't worth it.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
I hate to do it, but I have walked from projects (for various reasons), always forfeiting cash in the process.
Maybe there's a way to put a clause in the initial contract about unsafe or potentially unsafe conditions found on site. Owner would contractually agree up front to remedy any unsafe conditions and would agree to further investigation of potentially unsafe conditions. If the owner refuses, contractor can walk and owner is still obligated to pay contractor for all work performed to that date.
Mike Hennessy: are you still here? You think something like this would work/help? Any additional concepts you think should go in that might cover this?
Thanks.
"A job well done is its own reward. Now would you prefer to make the final payment by cash, check or Master Card?"
Still here. Sure it would help, but I would have a hard time convincing any contractor to include that sort of language in their standard contract. They'd never get any work!
Really, this sort of thing happens every day in rehab. (Makes me REALLY jealous of new construction guys!) You just never know what you'll find. I can't begin to list the number of times I started an apparently minor fix and ended up chasing a big problem for days. It goes with the territory when re-doing old houses. Almost every big problem first surfaces as some minor issue -- a shingle that blows off (because the decking and rafters are rotted), a small puddle on the basement floor (because of a busted drainline), a small crack in a wall (because of an improperly designed or installed supporting beam), etc., etc., etc.
A homeowner cannot shift the responsiblity for subsequent buyer disclosure to a contractor hired to perform an entirely different job. And a contractor cannot (and should not) go beyond the scope set by the owner. It will only cause trouble (and $$$) for the contractor. All you can really do is cover your butt in writing when this sort of thing bites you, and avoid that owner at all costs in the future. If you see something that needs attention and the owner refuses to address it, get him to sign a release describing the problem and acknowledging that he insisted you don't address it. Then keep that paper (and your fingers crossed) forever.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I was hired by a homeowner to do "rot repair" so the house could sell/close and change hands. The pest inspector claimed to be responsible for my work. That if I didn't get all the rot replaced, missed a small piece, and the house fell down, that he was responsible. We got into a heated discussion and now, many months and this discussion later, I am enlightened.
Of course, this job was a rot repair job, not a job where the damage was a complete suprise.
We eventually "got it all" and this house is still standing.
In the future, I will definitely be more vigilant in replacing all rot and informing all owners of their responsibility as well as mine. thanks
Grunge on.
> I would have a hard time convincing any contractor to include that sort of language in their standard contract. They'd never get any work!
Actually, they'd probably still get most of the same work they'd have without it. The only clients they'll lose are the crooks who read the fine print. Arguably a good class of clients to filter out in the first place. ;-)
-- J.S.
>>"It was amazing to see what looked like good wood on the surface had actually been reduced to stage props "
>> Youch! Good thing you got to it when you did. You were going to replace that floor anyway. ;-)
Well, I knew the damage was there and it would likely require some work, jsut not 40 hours' worth! I was actually hoping to be able to save the hardwood by working from below, but that plan went out the window as soon as the rug came up. Oh well, that's what makes this stuff so much fun! Always a surprise.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA