Texas A&M:who’s in charge,Where’s…
Someone is going to get sued big time over this! I agree, where was the proper supervision? The news stated there were outside contractors on site– did you see the size of the cranes they were using to set the log pile up? Those cranes weren’t being run by students or teachers. The college should have been keeping a closer eye on this “project”.
Let's see, stack 60 million logs vertically on top of each
other like a wedding cake. Yeah, that's the ticket! Sounds
safe to me! What do you need to get into that school, a
*You people are out of line to criticize without knowledge of what ACTUALLY goes on here. Yes, it is a tregedy, but none of you feel it the way we do here in College Station. There have been a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking going on but I dont believe the activity is inherently perilous. The stack is interwoven and not just piles of logs sitting on top of each other. Clearly something happened, but it was after all an accident. Even the student released from the hospital Wednesday plans to be the first in line for bonfire crew next year. The large cranes were being operated by an experienced operator. It wasn't a case of drunken students doing something foolish. Again, it is a tragedy, but any loss of life is, there were students killed in a skydiving incident 6 weeks ago, nobody is ridiculing the plane manufacturer, there were 6 students killed walking along the side of the road a few weeks ago, nobody is going to outlaw driving. These student volunteered, even the parents want the tradition to continue.As for lawsuits, Im sure there will be legal action, but frankly, it wouldnt surprise me if there weren't. You just don't understand what it is to be an Aggie. One oft quoted line is(parapfrased) "Those looking in cant understand it, and those on the inside cant explain it"So, before you sit on the outside condemning what you don't understand, come to see the process, come see the tens of thousands on the polo field with candles and come see what its all about. And Mad Dog, if you think a fishing license will get you in here, send in your application. Then talk to me after you take your Calculus and Physics.
Dirk, spare me the platitudes.
This is just one more example of Politicians and Administration not having the guts to be leaders.
If this were a construction project with a PE stamp on it , the Engineer would be up before the Board of Registration.
There are lots of traditions that are good, and ther are lots of traditions that get out of hand. What do you think this one is?
So, don't go waving your calculus in my face, there were'nt any Engineer profs comming forward to say how safe this 55' pile of logs was.
Tell your piece to the parents of the dead kids.
b don't come riding in on your high horse and expect me to salute. An accident is an accident, but this ain't the first time it's collapsed.
I always say, fun is fun, until the cops or the ambulance shows up. Anyway, it isn't really funny, nor did I mean it that way. Maybe A&M is a really tough school to enter, with strict academic requirements. Since I don't know, only suspect, I'll leave it at that. But Mike sure is right, think of the families of those kids, and I'll bet they aren't first in line to sign up for next year's bonfire.
*Well, I guess that unlike you East Coasters, we don't look to government to control every aspect of our lives. The Politicians, from President Bush, Gov. Bush, our senators, down to our local representatives favors continuing bonfire. The school administration worked on it when they were here, some of the parents worked on it.These people, far from not having the guts to be leaders, have the guts to let the students become leaders in their own right.What kind of tradition? A great one that will continue.You display your ignorance when you say that no engineering profs have come forward to say it was safe. But then you are in RI and Im a mile from the site so you would be privy to more info than I.I dont need to tell the parents, they are in favor of continuing bonfire. They have no problem with their younger children to participate when they come to A&M if they want to. You display your servitude and worship of the media when you say it collapsed before. No, it didnt. It started to lean because of the saturated soil and was knocked down. It was then rebuilt with extra effort and cooperation and lit on schedule.And Mad Dog, all I can go by is what the kids released from the hospital have said as well as the ones that were injured and returned the same day to help. As to academics, there are not many public schools with a better reputation.I guess thats the difference between us, we don't mind taking a risk for something important to us. If you want to sit in the basement wrapped in a mattress while the govt attends to you be my guest.
"It is better to be feared. . . Then loved!"
*Come on Dirk.........just one or two little quotes, from one or two Aggie Engineering Profs, telling poor old enslaved Right Coaster how safe a structure that was,And how much guts your great Gov. has "Today is a day for football " Please Dirk, just one or two little quotes, instead or your jingoistic drivel.
*Dirk,Giant pile of logs....oops....they flop....12 dead...not the best tradition....maybe it should be better engineered and just a wee bit smaller.aj
*All I want to add to this discussion is the gentle reminder to trust your intuition. Usually before a catastrophic accident the people involved suspect that danger is imminent. Often they bravely, and unwisely, ignore the voice within them that says what is about to happen. So people please, take a reminder to believe what you think and listen to your intuition.Joeb If something seems wrong it is.
I'm sure you were offended by my fishing license thing. I
take it back. No point in creating more problems.
FWIW, the view from up here is (now that everyone knows
about it) that your tradition is a dumb, wasteful one. Is
it worth all the trees, lives, and smoke? You decide, it's
your thing. I'm done giving a damn about it, if you don't.
*Well Mike,I would be happy to provide you quotes from not only professors, but also the families, administration, and politicians. Unfortunately, I have already discarded the papers containing them. Also, many of the quotes were on our local radio/TV stations.One thing you might keep in mind though, is that it was Engineers that came up with the design. In fact the former long-time advisor (13 yrs) is an engineer who was chair of the civil engineering dep't. He came up with several theories about what might have happened. None of which related to the design. You see, he obviously realizes it was an accident.This has always been a supervised activity. In fact, the stack once reached 109 feet but the university set the limit at 55 feet.As to our our Govs (future POTUS) comment, he was right on. It was a GREAT day for football. Im sure the other 86,000 fans agreed. I know that the tens of thousands that turned out the night before to honor the fallen 12 did. As to OSHA, they didnt have jurisdiction. They are looking at it now only because there was heavy equipment involved.So Mike, before you spout additional pompous rhetoric, you might want to get the facts. Although I suspect that's not your nature.Oh, Mad Dog, your comment didn't offend me, it just displayed your ignorance. Just like the comment about "wasting" the trees.The trees for bonfire are donated by people, generally alums, that were planning to clear the land anyway. Not to mention the Spring replant that plants thousands of seedlings where they can grow for years to come. To put it in perspective, if everyone that attends bonfire were to stay home and build a fire in the fireplace they would burn just as much wood. Are you for outlawing fireplaces?I think the answer to all this is so simple. The potential risks are out in the open. If people dont want to work on it in the years to come it will disappear. If not, the tradition will continue and we will invite the tree-huggers of the world to move into a straw-bale home. Oops, wait a minute...trees are a renewable resource too.
Dirk - I respect your defensive stance and the fact that you are proud of your traditions. Now how about you quit callin' people that I respect "ignorant", "pompous" and "tree huggers" and go back to lecturin' and rationalizin' wherever you were before you came here to set us all straight. I've met a lot of good folks from Texas and you aren't doin' them proud. - jb
Well, if you mean me, JB, I thank you, but I probably
deserved what he said, other than the ignorant part, but
since he doesn't know me, he must be ignorant to assume that
Dirk, you've certainly got a strong sense of respect and
honor for your traditions, school and citizens. I give you
credit for that. I very bluntly gave some poorly aimed
shots at things you hold dear and you fight back fierce,
like a mad dog. Just a little challenge? I say, your
tradition is YOURS, and I get the feelin' you Texans don't
need our Yankee asses tellin' you about it.
And that's fine with me. But if a point gets raised, and
fur starts to fly, be careful how you assess those you care
Dirk: and other Aggies, when the smoke clears and the ashes are long cold from these bon-fires, someone will finally come forward and say what really happened, it was the guy on the grassy knoll.
I have nephews and neices who have taken part in the bon-fires at A&M, so I do understand about the GREAT parts of the Tradition. I'm just pointing out that when a structure like that gets built, with all its potential for disaster, there had better be some defense in depth (i.e. GOOD ENGINEERING PRACTISES, with a certain amount of redundancy).
As some of my barrister brothers might say "res ipso locus" or some other misquote from legal latin.
Keep the faith, and I'll bet if you check , you'll find that a lot of those "TEXANS" are transplanted New Englanders, like George Herbert Walker Bush .
And MY favorite Texas Governor was last seen doing Potatoe (sic) chip ads with Gov. Cuomo.
Sign me "Just another Yellow Dog Dem"
I should add that I do care about trees. Those logs came
from some gawdawful big trees. I would love to have had
access to them for a timber frame I am working on. But go
ahead and turn them into smoke. I like a good bonfire too,
big or small. I heat my house with wood, so I would be
hypocritical to comment too much more on the fact that I do
think it's an irresponsible use of our resource.
But, what the hell, it gets a large crowd off, it is
practically neglgible in terms of the big picture, just a
symbol of gluttony, like piles of dead buffalo.
I have a friend who attended Rose-Holman University, an engineering school of some repute supposedly. He says their bon fire is 60 feet high every year, built from railroad ties and palettes (and a whole bunch of scrap whatever piled around the base after completion) and that he wouldn't go near it ("an accident waiting to happen"). It is his understanding that ALL colleges have big bon fires in the fall. I went to Indiana for four years and lived in the town for five more, and I have no memory of a bonfire, but...
My point is, whatever Texas A&M might be guilty of, I'm sure there are a lot of other schools doing much the same thing (or worse!).
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"It is better to be feared. . . Then loved!" Machiavelli
*To me it seems like a dumb tradition, but then I am from up north. Dirk, how many of your children would you like to sacrafice for this tradition? Kids, and we were all kids once, will do dumb things, but colleges should know better. To me, being a professional has always meant looking out for my patients best interests to the best of my ability, and knowing when that ability was inadequate so as to consult someone else. How many of you would take college kids, inexperienced and put them on a roof that high up? Would you want them to be there without a safety rope? Lastly, if you had twelve kids on a roof, and the structure collapsed, how would you feel the next morning? Would the reply be, hey, "great football game"? Geez, the whole thing is lame.Dennis
*Being a former Texan, and I won't agree or disagree with the bonfire, I think the hardest part for outsiders to understand is how deep the meanings of tradition run. Of all the schools in Texas I've never known any more rabidly loyal than the Aggies. Right or wrong, my bet is that the tradition will continue.
*I count some Aggies as friends, and you are so right, there are few schools anywhere in the country where students and alumni are as loyal as the Aggies. Others elsewhere in the country would not understand, and a sixty second sound bite on the news will not tell the whole story. It was a tragedy but I believe the worst response is to have the Fed's rush in to protect us from ourselves. Sometimes they do more harm than good. More children have been killed by airbags in motor vehicles than in school gun violence including Columbine.
*"More children have been killed by airbags in motor vehicles than in school gun violence including Columbine."Talk 'bout sound bites that don't tell the whole story!Rich Beckman
*Well what the hell! I may as well be a voice my opinion on this whole sordid mess that has its venerable roots in "tradition". "Way back when" I attended college my purpose was to learn and obtain an education. There was no desire on my part to get wrapped into some ridiculous, self indulgent antic like building a bonfire all in the name of "tradition". This whole business of "tradition" makes me think of the person who just never let go of high school and continues to live their life in that mode. Dirk, does the fact that the trees were "donated" somehow obviate the waste and pollution of the bonfire? I was unaware how this might do so but I am, apparently, "uninformed". As for taking risks for something I believe in, well, I guess I'm a little more interested in taking risks for things a bit more tangible than "tradition". As for how a bonfire is going to make a leader out of someone, well, that's one of those areas that, as you so fondly describe it, I'm ignorant. What a specious piece of crap that notion is. As for the statement, "those looking in cant understand it, and those on the inside cant explain it"..... Well, here's my take on that: Those who can't explain it probably don't understand it. All and all, the whole business was a terrible tragedy- all in the name of "tradition". Sam
Again you are a fount of conjecture. A&M has appointed an independent party to investigate what happened. I heard his interview on the radio today, he is going to appoint a team of investigators with no Aggie ties (if thats possible in TX) to get to the bottom of what happened.
The design for stack comes from engineers, has been reviewed by engineers, and there are engineers standing behind it. Can it be improved? Probably. Should it? Absolutely.
Stack has evolved over the years, maybe its time to look at different ways of doing it, who knows? Nobody here is insisting that it has to be done exactly the same way for eternity. That comes from outsiders and Yellow Dogs with scant knowledge of the facts and no desire to obtain them.
Of course, the yellow dogs remaining in TX have their tails between their legs these days.
Its true that some Texans arrive here from the god-forsaken liberal enclaves of the LEast Coast, but we see it in terms of an escape and welcome them with open arms. We consider all of the Bushes family and proud Texans.
Crazy Legs, I wish I could oblige ya but I call em as I see em. I appreciate your input, but, no. Others have set the tone for this discussion and I will vigorously counter their rhetoric on all fronts. How nice for you that you respect them, I don't know them but I do not respect their remarks or your suggestion. How bout you address your delusional idea that you have any standing whatsoever to tell me what to do.
Mad Dog, I was a bit irritated that you would disparage the academics here without having any knowledge of same. In that, and in the remark about the trees you were truly ignorant of the facts. The term carries more than one connotation.
You were right about one thing though. It IS our tradition. It's more than not needing Yankee input (although true), it's that we don't need Knee-jerk reactions and pontification by those armed only with what Peter Jennings tells them. I mean, it has been quite a while since I've seen a "Love NY? Take I-30 North" bumper sticker.
Rich, I have never heard of the bonfire in Indiana but I know a lot of schools have them in one form or another. They always touted ours as the biggest (6000-7000 trees) but I think they qualify it by it being the largest tiered bonfire. 60 feet would be pretty big though and RR ties? Mad Dog, talk about SMOKE? Wow.
Dennis, it would, of course, be utterly devastating to lose a child. Unfortunately, most things have risk to them, especially fun things. As I stated previously, 6 students were killed walking to a party and 5 in a skydiving accident, what are we going to do about that? Should they hunker down in a bomb shelter when not in class? Not me, I'll be out at first cut next year.
I also think your opinion is lame. You may be another liberal that thinks of gov't as our great protector, I don't know. I do know, however, that there were safety precautions taken and I also know that nobody woke up the next day thinking about the football game. I was here. I saw the tears, the silence in the halls, and the grief that permeated the community for over a week and continues today. I think we were in a better position to decide whether to proceed with the game than any of you monday morning quarterbacks. Everything was done with those 12 in mind, from the candlelight vigil to the abbreviated yell practice and through the game itself. There is a time to start the healing process and for us it came on a glorious day that found the Ags "beatin the hell outta" t.u. Whooop!
To all of you with open minds out there it's appreciated. Joe, I particularly appreciate your style and suspect a wickedly dry sense of humor is lurking within.
In conclusion, as hard as it is for most of you to understand, there is a genuine sense of family here at A&M. Like most families, we prefer to handle our own situations without the distraction of self-appointed "experts." I am confident the truth will come out and any decisions will be made by Ags for Ags. We don't need or want the government in here to direct our lives.
As a fellow Texan, I can relate to the tradition and the honor. I live far enough away that the only facts I know are what little the t.v news tells me. I don't believe half of what they tell me anyway. The cause may or may not ever be found. Tragedy any way you look at it.
I, as a small business man, former educator, and citizen agree on the fact that we do not need more gov't dictating our every step.
As for the bonfire traditions, I really don't think anyone who doesn't have this type of thing going on in your area (for your whole lives) really understands. Maybe they do. It's kinda like an annual turkey hunt for some families. It's tradition. Of course, some animal rights groups would disagree about its usefulness and purpose, but for the families whose tradition is being attacked, I bet they get very defensive.
In Louisiana, along the bayous, they have Christmas bonfires every year. Been doing it for over a hundred years. These bonfires are huge (takes heavy equipment to lift all the logs in place) and they are spaced apart (within eye sight of each other) for miles down the bayous. They start harvesting the trees months in advance just for this event. From what I saw, many replant, and have a viable, renewable source for the logs. Now this has been a tradition for over a hundred years, and I don't think they'd be very nice to anyone opposing the tradition. Heck, they even have helicopter tours now of these bonfires.
As for "That other governor" (Ann Richards), she did more harm to Texas than any other governor in history. The people of this great state got tired of her, and ran her off. Now, we have the Honorable Governor (full title) George W. Bush. He has done more to help our state than any governor in history. It seems to be just a matter of preference between Dems and Repubs. I personally vote for, and support people, not parties.
Even if you don't like the idea, or if you think it would be a bad thing, one thing is for sure. George W. Bush will be the next President of the United States. Without any serious competition, he will ride right on into Washington.
Dirk (or should I call you by your real name, Rush),
You just can't give any ground, can you? I tried. But now,
you've jammed so much of your own ignorant conjecture and
political drama into this. You have no idea what you're
talking about anymore. If you want to call everyone with a
different point of view a "yellow dog" "tree hugger"
"liberal (your favorite) " then all I can figure is you are
an extremely defensive, insecure fool. I've seen people
just like you who try to inject their political beliefs into
every conversation they have, as if anyone gives a rat's ass
who they vote for anyway. "Don't mess with Texas", right,
you guys know everything, and you don't need no liberal
government telling you what to do.
Well, maybe you do. Someone should have taught you some
"liberal" thinking and some Texas manners before you started
calling people names. It is a small thinker that cannot
respect another's point of view, as referring to your
"reply" to JB and DL. If you don't think that YOU set the
tone for this discussion, YOU are the one who is
"delusional" (your word).
I was willing to let this one go. You can't argue with a
sick mind, Rush, (or is he just your idol).
I like how you refer to the logpile as "stack", as if it had
a name. It probably does. This is laughable as hell.
Since I've wasted more time with you than any other
political minded moron (oops, I called you a name) I mean,
person, I feel guilty about getting involved in another
senseless argument (I don't give a damn about the bonfire,
so why bother?) and contributing to the lesser good of
Breaktime. For this, I am not ignorant, but cognizant. But
better pursuit of discussion will prevail, especially when
this thread dies.
*Oh mad dog, mad dog, mad dog,Or is it Al? (Did you REALLY invent the internet?)You amuse me with your feeble response. If you recall, Mike proclaimed himself to be a "Proud" yellow dog. That being the case, how is my use of it an insult? I mean, as opposed to your uninformed whining and false characterization of academics here at A&M? As to your "figuring" anything, I don't think your "figuring" skills have been quantified and based upon your penchant for making unfounded attacks.This is so typical of you liberals, You try to denigrate the academics at A&M in order to boost your own inadequacy somehow. You make cutting remarks on things you know nothing about. I said before that you were ignorant of the facts, I was wrong, you are simply ignorant. And that is probably your BEST quality.The tone was set here when my interjection of FACTS was termed "jingoistic drivel," I mean I know that those of you clinging to Hillary's skirt use that tactic frequently, but you can count on a response in kind.You can keep your liberal thinking up there where it belongs. We dont want it or need it, and remember, a lot of us are "carrying." Yes, we do have a name for the stack of logs. It really is more than a pile of logs, hence the name "Stack." It is a term that has a specific meaning and clearly identifies the subject. Sort of like the term we use for those who criticize something without knowing anything about it-Moron.Sam, I appreciate you regaling us with your college exploits. You sound like a real fun guy. The point is, you made your choices. Why would you criticize those that did the same? Because their choices weren't the same?I don't know, most of the fatalities were also members of the Corps of Cadets. I think they have a great deal of focus on academics and contribute a great deal more as well. Yes, the fact that they were donated does make a difference. They were going to be cleared off anyway. These trees are a renewable resource as evidenced by the thousands of seedlings replanted each Spring by A&M students. You clearly have little, if any, familiarity with leadership, but I will try to explain it to you. Bonfire is a big undertaking, run by students. For most it is the first opportunity to create something on a large scale that requires hard work and dedications. Students come out of it with a sense of pride, accomplishment, and confidence that carries throughout life and career.I am proud to be part of the Aggie family. I am very much for the return of Bonfire next year, and I am also saddened by the loss of 12 of our own. The difference is, this is all real for me, Y'all are just throwing grenades from the sidelines. So, stay up there, get yourself a new Ted Kennedy poster, and try to get some facts so that you don't display your ignorance so prominently.
Not a sound bite, just a fact .... go to http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov. According to NHTSA, there have been 146 confirmed airbag deaths, 62 of them adults, the remainder children. Airbags have saved countless lives, but for people short in stature, and children, they can be be positively lethal. The are not the panacea the safety lobby claimed them to be when first introduced. I believe government erred in the original standard by requiring the automakers to protect an unbelted male in a crash which required a more powerful airbag than one to protect a belted driver. You might have noticed airbags are now called SRS (supplemental restraint systems). The automakers petitioned the government, the result of which is a new standard- FMVSS 208, which allows depowered airbags. The automakers share some responsibility, too ...... for not fully educating the public when airbags were first introduced.
Does anyone else think this guy is dangerous? I read his
statements with a furthering dread every time they pop up.
A lot of symptoms of badness, old style cracker bullshit.
Carrying? Neat term. Like I give the slightest turd. You
were there at Waco, and Daley Plaza, and Richmond (as per
Clay), and Memphis, spring of '68.
Dirk, grow up and learn to live in the real world. There's
a lot of it besides the Great Texas, though you'll never
know it. (Remember, Hillary is out there, and she's
When you fondly and reverently speak to "stack," do you have
your American flag, your .44 and your KKK membership card
handy so you can feel closer to the things you love?
You don't know squat, especially about me or any other
person that's come under your grizzly skin within this
thread. Where did you come from, and why?
I'm just disgusted with myself for ever being in your
cyber-presence. If smell could travel through these lines,
my computer would have warned me of your stench long before
your written reflections of a former botched-up world of
good ole boy shit ever flashed across this screen.
*Mad Dog,You must have meant Confederate Flag, right? The guy is becoming a menace. Maybe he outta jump in his fireRob
I didn't say it wasn't a fact. I don't argue the factualness of the statement. It is still a meaningless sound bite. You proceeded it with the statement:
>It was a tragedy but I believe the worst response is to have the Fed's rush in to protect us from ourselves. Sometimes they do more harm than good.
So you seem to be making the argument that seat belts did more harm than good. Although, now in your post 22.1 you admit that airbags have saved "countless lives" against 146 deaths. It is clear that the Feds did not do "more harm than good"
Finally, your sound bite brings in "school gun violence including Columbine" for who knows what reason. A perfect sound bite, contributing nothing whatsoever to the discussion at hand.
*Oops. First line after the quote should be>So you seem to be making the argument that air bags did more harm than good.Sorry 'bout that.Rich Beckman
*Hey, Dirk, ol'buddy !.....ever been anyplace besidesssssss Texas ?I love Texas. Great place . Great people. Like my former Commander-in-Chief....LBJ. Hell he practically invented us Yellow Dogs. And long before he was fightin' VietNam, he declared war on poverty, he knew all about poverty and helping people, but I think that was a different Texas than you've been describing.But , seriously now, don't you think you should broaden your horizons, come on out to the Right Coast, or go see some of my buds on the REAL left coast.Before you settle down for the rest of your life in Texas, come on out and see how the rest of the world lives, and works, and celebrates traditions.......Come on now Dirk, you be good. That wasn't your daddy with the bumper sticker "Drive 60 and freeze a Yankee" was it ?I mean, hell I was raised as a Republican , too, then I learned how to read. (my Dad used to hate to hear me say that , God Rest his soul). Sure is fun, if you don't take yourself too seriously.Think I'll go to the couch.........and read some of that haiku on BB's post.
*I apologize if I sounded hostile. I don't feel that all the risks were made known at the time of airbags initial introduction. The best safety device is the driver, followed by seatbelts. It is as if we as a country are developing a Politburo mentality where the solutions to our problems have to come from Washington. I guess I'm nieve enough to believe the best solutions still come from a state/local/individual level. Maybe I've been reading the paper too much .... Merry Christmas to you
Your former commander-in-chief was so much like the present one, he would make a rather poor role model. The only place where he was very popular in Texas, was in DuVall county, where even the dead people in the cemetery voted for him, in the order that they were buried. Corruption with Lyndon was like stink on skunk, his war on poverty was only benificial for his own personal poverty, the poor of America have increased because of his programs that take from those who will work to give to those that wont work. St Paul said " that a man that wont work shouldnt eat", and "that a man that dosent care for his own is worse than an infidel." The church that I attend has a benevolence ministry that gives food and clothing to the "poor", most of which are poor because they are lazy, my child bride of 15 years is the clothing director there. The only sizes of clothes they need have to be custom made at Amarillo tent and awning because the "poor" are so fat that they cant wear anything that is a large or extra large size. Lyndons "great society" is an utter failure that has succeeded in seperating any sense of responsibility or pride from countless millions of fat and lazy people. He was able to build a legacy that is serveral generations strong now. Brown and Root and many other of Lyndons buddies proffited handsomely from his war on poverty also,
as he laid a pattern for corruption that would make the New York mob blush, Our chief executive learned well from Lyndons tactics. If you indeed are a yellow dog democrat you should appreciate Lyndons part in having teddys brother
take early retirement from goverment service.
If you wonder where I am coming from, politicaly, the last presidential election I held my nose and voted against
the sitting president, George W Bush is no bargain as the next president, he is third generation "skull and bones", he is against individual freedom,national soverignty, real education and children, but he has the annointing from Bills bosses to be the next president, unless America wakes up.
J Evitts Haley wrote a book about Lyndon that any admirer
ought to read, A Texan looks at Lyndon, sub-titled a study of the illigitimate siezure of power. Its worth the read.
Merry Christmas to you! I would not even have bothered except that you complained about sound bites, then used one. Frankly, I am thrilled that the Federal government is involved in auto safety.
But I have to say that I don't think Texas A&M needs any congressional hearings (unless the same thing happens next year).
Yes, the accident is a tragedy. Yes, someone needs to do a thorough investigation of what caused it and steps should be taken to ensure that the tradition continues for decades to come without any other fatalities.
i Then MAYBE
one could say that the twelve lives were not lost for nothing.
Life is dangerous, but let us learn from mistakes.
Oh yeah, personally, I find your govenor unimpressive and I would be happy if you would keep him to yourselves. Thanks.
Oh come now ladies,
Surely you can do better than that. One of the first and most reliable signs of someone losing an argument is when they turn to personal attacks instead of substantive argument. I hate to give substance to your off-topic rhetoric, but thats what being a lib is all about isn't it.
By the way MD, its Dealey Plaza, you have to go to Chicago to find Daley plaza.
We know there is a lot outside of Texas, we just don't care for it. It's full of bleeding heart liberal tree-huggers.
, , I don't even like SAYING the "L" word. At least you got the "Great" part right.
MD, do you speak to the wood you so callously burn to heat your home? You're starting to worry me. You suggest talking to Stack, but I wonder if you realize it is comprised of inanimate objects lacking intelligence.....Ohhhhhhhhh, NOW I see where you are coming from. If you get to Texas next fall when its being built, you be sure to stop and chat.
Just a sec.................Har Har Har, that KKK joke sho is funny
Ok now, whew! You funny guy!
Awwwww poor doggie, did you get your pwecious wittle feelings hurt? Are the big kids pickin on you again?
Your wittle cwubhouse get upset? LOL
You know MD, Im disgusted with you too. On that we can agree. If idiots could fly, you would be an Eagle.
Hey Mike, chant with me..."Hey, Hey, LBJ, How many kids did you kill today?"
Loose Bowels Johnson was the worst president of this century. He did more to harm minorities and the poor than any president in history. Lady Bird did beautify America though....she stopped her daughters from riding in convertibles.
I know very well how the rest of the world blah..blahh..celebrates traditions. It's just that we do it better. Why would I leave?
Sorry to hear about your stunted cognitive development. Apparently it affected your judgement too.
Well Bb: what can I say.......all my heroes got clay feet.
Read some more bio's. Every pol. who made it to the top has some mighty big skels in their closet......and yes, I'm a great fan of conspiracy theory.
I think the thing that fascinates me most about the whole process, and I mean ALL of history is how immutable the great "law of unintended consequences" is. Its a lot more than Murphy writ large. Read some of B.Tuchman, and Truman, and A.Lincoln. Harry S. (NG Artillery) got shit on and now he's enshrined. Wilson wanted to do good and screwed it all up. Over and over and over.
Think I'll go to the couch and look for some insight as to how to make things better tomorrow.
Good night to you and yours, and lets be careful out there.
Congressional hearings?? OMG, where did that come from?
I would say it was impossible, that surely our we dont need the federal govt sticking their fingers into this but anymore, who knows?
Maybe Rosie O'Donnell and the Baldwin boys will testify.
As far as car safety, I recall safety experts recommending passive restraints over airbags but the politicos and their lobbyists and pollsters went for the airbags.
Gov. Bush may not be my idea of the perfect candidate but considering the field he has my vote.
I was wondering if any of you have considered the possibility that DIRK is not a real person ,but merely a cyber-cartoon like BABE MARTEL and JOE FIASCO etc.He seems to be the stereo typical texan,so much so that this must be a lampoon ,right?
Now that I think about it,it is no suprise that Mr. Du Hammel and Ed from Dallas are so defensive of their state. It would be a full time job to battle the nationwide perception that the State of Texas is populated entirely by DIRKS.Rationally ,we know every texan isn't like DIRK,but still in the back of our minds it is so easy to believe the entire state is filled with nothing but his ilk.
I would like a minute to talk about tradition.It would seem that this bonfire is a tradition dating back some 90 years or so. This longevity seems to have given it a stature out of proportion with its worth. The fact that it is a tradition seems to mean that no one involved will even consider if it is a smart idea.
Let's look at a few other time honored traditions,several of which lasted longer than this bonfire tradition.Luckily most of these traditions,some defended by force of arms,have fallen by the wayside,or are on their way to the dustbin of American culture
Irish NEED NOT APPLY
'male only' country clubs
Organizations which prohibit Catholics and Jews
Local laws designed to prevent citizens from voting,based on their race.(or gender)
Surely we remember that at one time slavic or italian ancestry in this country meant ,maybe not sub-human,but certainly less than desireable.
How about Realtors ,banks,and developers red lining certain neighborhoods?
I am sure you all have memories of a few traditions which now seem like incredibly foolish ideas.This bonfire tradition,when viewed rationally from a distance seems sad,trivial,childish to the point of pathetic.Humans lost their lives for a bonfire to commemorate a football game?How pointless.
Now there are those who would try to tell us that this pile of logs is a glorious symbol,and its construction each year a wonderfull way to learn teamwork,leadership,self sacrifice,dedication etc.I would say these deaths are to high a price to pay to transmit values which could better be learned in productive ventures.Would not it be remarkable if the Students of that university united each year to tutor inner city kids,to repair dilapidated housing stock,to start the most productive Red Cross blood drive, or to raise support for disaster relief?If my children were to die at this age,I would hope it was in some humanitarian cause like air lifting supplies to earthquake victims,rather than in celebration of a foolish tradition.
Good Luck All,Stephen
*I generally consider myself to be a roaring liberal, but I can't get on this train. I'm sorry Stephen, but the traditions you have listed are qualitatively different from Texas A&M's bonfire. Yes, A&M should bring all of its engineering expertise to bear on the problem to ensure that it never happens again. But really, even if the thing seems silly, that is half the point. It is just as silly to ban it.There is a lot of government regulation I am in favor of. And if these werei high schoolkids building this thing I would feel a bit different. These are college "kids", in other words they arei adults.Moreover, they are engineering students. This is not some danger foisted on an unsuspecting public by an unscupulous corporation looking only to its bottom line.Yes, it seems wasteful, but the reality is that those trees represent ai tinypercentage of available timber.As to the identity of Dirk, I did find it odd that an A&M alumni found this discussion as quickly as Dirk did. The thought that Dirk has been a longtime lurker occurred, but he seems much too outspoken to have been quietly lurking. More likely, A&M supporters realized that the accident represented a large PR problem and started comprehensive web searches for discussions just like this.Frankly, even if Dirk is a cyber-cartoon, I am glad someone came up with him (and my first thought on who would be Joe). Otherwise this thread would be completely unbalanced. As much as I don't think I would get along with Dirk, I still think most of his points about the bon fire (if nothing else) are valid.Finally,>to tutor inner city kids,to repair dilapidated housing stock,to start the most productive Red Cross blood drive, or to raise support for disaster relief?If my children were to die at this age,I would hope it was in some humanitarian cause like air lifting supplies to earthquake victimsthis list of worthy causes is a good one. As liberals we should be more concerned about these kind of things:i ongoing problems that result in repeated suffering and misery.Not the rare accident that simply doesn't affect that many people. Don't get me wrong, I am stunned and saddened that twelve people lost their lives, but I am a lot more interested in how we are going to prevent airline pilots from flying the jets into oceans or mountains.Rich Beckman
Your statements, although typical of liberal strategies, are really out of line.
To compare a VOLUNTEER activity, intended to lift spirit, and open to all, is absolutely absurd and betrays your claim of rational thought.
You obviously know very little about Texas and Texans. There is a definite pride here, and we don't apologize for it. If you don't like it, you can take comfort in the fact that you don't live here. We really don't want you.
Actually, that pride pales in comparison to the fervor of Aggies for the university and other Aggies. Something you know NOTHING of.
As if your prior comments weren't enough, your suggestion to put efforts into "productive" activities highlights your lack of knowledge.
There is a huge amount of volunteer activity here. Students are involved in hundreds of activities throughout the community. In the Spring there is the Big Event, the largest volunteer event in the country.
I think this was illustrated by the teachers at local schools who have written to our local paper detailing the way the Aggies that volunteer in the schools showed up on the morning of the collapse, despite having lost friends in the accident, and not knowing about others, sucked it up, dried their tears and fulfilled their obligation to the kids.
Actually, the character and selflessness of the students might best be characterized by Tim Kerlee, a 17 year old working on stack. In the Friday edition of The Dallas Morning News, there was a picture of early rescue activities. Rescue workers are shown at the base of the stack rescuing a trapped student. About 5 feet above them Tim is shown reclining on some logs with his head propped up on his elbow, logs on top of him preventing his movement. If you look really closely at the photo you notice his legs lying in an odd position.
What was happening, according to the rescue teams was that in that photo was Tim was directing the rescue workers to other trapped students around him. He kept telling the workers he was ok and directed the workers to at least 5 of his fellow students before he allowed them to tend to him.
He was taken to Emergency Surgery, when they opened him up they found his organs so badly damaged they could not identify much of what they saw. They closed him up, they wrapped him in a sheet to hold him together, and they put him on life support.
He did live long enough to see his parents but he knew he was dying and asked to be removed from life support. When his parents asked him why, he asked them why he should fight for a few days of life when I can be in Heaven with Jesus now?"
Well, he got his wish that evening.
I didn't know Tim Kerlee personally, but I do know there are thousands of students and alums just like him. So when you cynics want to stand on a "holier than thou" soapbox, you might want to get your facts straight first. By the way Steven, what do YOU do?
After the disaster Aggies and even Longhorns overwhelmed the blood centers offering donations and many spent hours waiting in line.
It is such a tragedy, felt deeply by all of us here, but there are no guarantees in life. Just ask the parents of the 6 killed a few weeks earlier when walking along a road.
Rich,I don't believe my post called for any government involvement in this situation,it was merely stating my thoughts on the topic.
Regaurding the other traditions I mentioned----you are correct they are quite a bit different than this bonfire. I used them because they happened to be the first ones which came to mind,and I used them because I wanted to point out that although something is a tradition it can still be ill-conceived,and best dispensed with.
Regaurding your theory on DIRK's identity-----you are probably correct.He jumped in here pretty quickly,was never seen before and probably won't be seen after this thread dies down.My speculation that he was a fictional creation was based on reading his posts and their stereo typical stance----" since I am a texas conservative and you disagree with me ,you must be a tree hugging ,carpet bagging,yellow ,eastern,northern.commie,pinko,lily livered,do-gooding,Liberal."Is it impossible that someone could disagree with a conservative and still be a conservative ?Is it an all or nothing proposition and if you disagree on one point you have to turn in your conservative badge?
I feel that DIRK could have served his cause much better if he had simply stated in the beginning"look,we are all upset by this horrible accident,it is a tragedy.This event has a long history and we would like to get to the bottom of its cause so that ,in the future, we can continue the event with greater safety for the participants"I could be wrong,but I think every body who has posted on this topic would have respected that position. People may not have agreed with all its points,but they would have respected it and remained civil.
And lastly,DIRK,I am not sure what you mean by "Steven,what do YOU do?"I am not sure if you mean professionaly,or in reference to any activities I may pursue in the benefit of others.I have discussed both possibilities here(in other threads) from time to time.Though I have no real curiosity about your personal life,if you wish to correspond regaurding mine, you can send a questionaire to [email protected]
Good Luck All,Stephen
I'm not really interested in you or your activities. My question was rhetorical and intended to see if, as you suggest, ONLY things done to further the causes you believe in are appropriate and NO other time should be allocated to a personal interest.
As far as where I came from, I don't see the relevance but I can tell you that if I were here on some sort of mission I would only have had to send a handful of E-mails to generate an army of people to assist me. Not that I think I need any assistance here.
I really don't care either, what you think about the tone in my postings. If you had actually examined the situation without bias you would see that I posted in response to self-proclaimed Bonfire, Texas, and academic experts Mike and Mad Dog.
But then why would I expect someone such as yourself, who compares a bonfire to slavery, etnic discrimination, and a host of other ridiculous comparisons?
We are going to get to the bottom of this. The head of the organization selected four members to the commission yesterday. Imagine my surprise when I saw the list didn't include you or anyone else on this thread that shoots off their mouth as if they ACTUALLY know something.
Maybe some people here aren't outraged at all. Some people posting ,absent knowledge, feign outrage to further their delusion of relevance. Others that post without knowledge are just jerks. Which are you?
It seems to me the reasonable thing would have been to take the opportunity to ask questions of someone with greater, more accurate information. They would rather attack based on a snippet of information from the media or disparage the academics of the third largest school in the country. Give me a break.
"It is better to be feared. . . Then loved!"
*Stephen,Your right. You did not call for any governmental involvement. I apologise. I addressed my post to you because my initial comment was responding to your post. Then I went on and responded to other posts. I will try to be more careful in the future.Upon reflection I have decided that I don't think Dirk is a cyber-cartoon. He seems very well informed about Texas A&M to not be an alumni. He can't be Joe, because he doesn't have enough typos. :-)As to Dirk's being a caricature of a Texan, perhaps that is because most of this thread reads like a caricature of a liberal. Some of the initial posts I can understand. I overreacted when I first heard of the accident, also. But the tone hasn't changed much. I can't blame Dirk for his response. I'm sure he thinks that no one is going to give him a fair hearing anyway. And it seems he would mostly be right about that.Just my thoughts, but I could be wrong (there was that time in '56! :-)Rich Beckman
I couldn't possibly care less. This discussion is worthless, and since it is in "construction techniques" and has no hint of anything constructive, why bother. People like you aren't worth corresponding with. About the only thing you were right about is my misspelling of Dealey Plaza, my mistake.
Joe, I can't believe you're swallowing any of this fool's swill.
MD has left the building (site)
*Mad Dog,I'm always anxious to see what you will have to say next. I'm not much of a fruit lover, but thanks for the sour grapes.
*Dirk,Sneak on over to the tavern. I'll buy ya one, if you're up for it. I'll be willing to discuss anything, other than what we've been.MD
As Sam said, "What the hell..." I rarely get mad enough to actually want to bust a guy in the chops, but Dirk deserves to have his ass kicked. In case you missed it, that is my opinion but may be construed to be factual.
He keeps piping up about the facts, the facts, ad nauseum. So far, all I've seen from him which could be construed as facts are his reference to A&M being the 3rd largest in the US of A, A&M having the largest volunteer effort in America, and the student body leading the stack, logpile, whatever.
So, let's get on with those facts, shall we? 3rd largest? How do you measure? Body count? Body weight? Shoe size? According to the NMS, the Aggies are in 8th place. According to Who's Who, they are in 10th for academics and 10th for provision of on-campus student housing.
As for volunteer efforts, what the hell does this mean, that A&M is the single largest organization to send out volunteers? Better check that "fact" again. HFH, Peace Corps, AmeriCorps come to mind. Sheez, Amor Ministries topped 32K volunteers this year. Want to try again?
Student body running the show? A&M says the Cadets finance and organize the bonfire, but who puts together the engineering.
Basically, I see a red flag whenever I hear someone spouting facts with little or no supporting evidence. I have seen nothing to support what Dirk is offering as factual. Instead of using this as an oppurtuntiy to enlighten us, he simply has resorted to sophomoric namecalling. How churlish.
As I have read through this entire thread I have seen Dirk repeatedly relying on innuendo and BS rhetoric to espouse his position that ya'll don' know, all the while becoming increasingly mired in namecalling. Texes A&M university has their own unique soundbite, er, mission statement, which reads, in part; "A strong commitment to the principal of diversity in all areas." Dirk, I suggest you take heed of such "liberal" doctrine.
I am compelled to add one more thing here. Dirk had spoken of the students that died as "...the fallen". That irritates me to no end for it insinuates a comparison with those have given their lives in battle. To think that college students who died in an accident are on par with those soldiers is horrid. To think this way dirties the names of those fighting men and women and trivializes their cause. You have fallen to a new low if you intended this. I really hope this was an oversight Dirk.
*You know Dirk, you're an inspiration in a perverse sort of way; just when I start thinking that the conservatives might actually have a lick of sense, someone such as yourself comes along and corrects me. And damn man, you've corrected me! You have it all wrong though about me being a real fun guy, I'm not. I'm a first class prick when it comes right down to it. Of course a man of your obvious and abundant wit and euridition probably already figured this out. But perhaps not.... As for you teaching me something about leadership, don't waste your breath. Whatever stunted, misguided ideas you have about leadership you can use on yourself or others of your ilk, I simply have no need for it. As for that comment about the trees being donated and that making a difference... Well, I'll let YOU chew on that little piece of logic and figure it out. Of course this is predicated on the understanding of logic. When it comes right down to it, I could really give a shit less about you and your attitude Dirk. I just hope a tragedy of this nature doesn't happen again. To really sum it up, just re-read the first line of Rich's post. Sam
*Dirk,surely you are not threatening to harrass me electronically because we have a difference of opinion on this issue?Try to get some sleep,I think you are losing your grip on reality.Good Luck All,Stephen
*Joe: your scorekeeping is a little like the World wide Wrestling judge who gives it to the bad guy just to enrage the fans and keep their interest up........you wouldn't be fanning the flames, would you.Nah, what could have ever possessed me to entertain that idea.Anyway, I think this post has cetainly outlived its usefulness. I put it in "Construction Techniques" because I didn't understand, from looking at the pictures, how the "stack" was supposed to have any stability to begin with.But , I never did get any "Quotes" from any Engineers about how this thing was designed to be safe. Or why parents shouldn't fear for the lives of their college age students with good old boys like Dirk telling them what a wonderful experience this is going to be. For a biblical reference, it kind of looked like the old tower of Babel. Geez, I hope nobody takes offence at that!
What a stud you are! LOL Are you a drinker? Your post sounds like it comes from somebody with "beer muscles"
If you read an earlier post of mine you might have noted my reference that that the first sign someone is losing an argument is when he starts calling names. A corollary to that, which should interest you, is that a SURE sign that someone has lost an argument and/or has not the intellect to compete is when he threatens violence.
But, if you think you can find somebody to do the job, you send em on down.
Ok, now I need will display your ignorance by simply supplying the facts.
First, A&M has the 3rd largest enrollment at 35,889 according to US News and World Reports. Actually the total enrollment this fall, including grad students, is a bit over 43,000. The two universities with larger enrollments are #1 University of Texas at 37,203 and #2 Ohio State at 36,252.
Second, as for volunteer efforts, I said that "The Big Event" is the largest ONE DAY service event in the country. I have seen that reported various places but I have not the desire to look up more statistics. I just know it's a huge event with thousands of participants.
I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make about the students being charge of cut, stack, and bonfire. I assume you are trying to say they aren't? That's ridiculous. Bonfire has been run by students since the beginning. Who puts together the engineering? The process has evolved over the years, but there have always been inviolvement by engineers and those in the construction trades. The acitvity is run primarily by the red-pots. These are seniors with extensive experience gained in previous years. The next level of "management" are the brown-pots who are juniors with prior experience. The techniques are passed on from year to year by these leaders. As I mentioned before, the faculty advisor for 13 years was the head of the civil engineering dep't. I still don't know what your point was, but maybe you can get these facts in your head, lonesome though they may be.
As for your sound-bite, I see that as a worthy goal, particularly since the A&M student body is actually pretty homogenous. I didn't see it in the mission statement though. We are all for diversity, but to us diversity does not equate to your liberal, touchy-feely, you aren't capable of doing it without the government mentality. Thank God!
You wouldn't think it possible, but you keep losing credibility as your post continues. I, and another Aggie, are the only ones that DO know what we are talking about. Any name calling here bagan after my initial post and was not initiated by me. But then you libs never let the truth stand in the way of your rhetoric.
*Hi Sam,I don't think it is a secret to anybody who has ever encountered that you are, indeed, a prick. I just don't know why you're such a dumb prick.I never considered myself to be particularly witty, yes, but of course on a board devoid of wit, and facts, I suppose I would appear to possess great wit. Oops, is that a sign of eRUdition? Or should I make a spelling joke?Sam, I'm also quite sure you have no interest in leadership. Some people just aren't cut out for that. What you should learn though, is to not assail others that choose to lead rather than toss grenades while they cower in the background.The FACT that the trees are donated and the FACT that there is a replant DOES make a big difference. The land was to be cleared anyway, and the trees were coming down. I realize that you think somehow gov't should dictate where those trees go and to what purpose they are used, but thats just something you and your tree-hugger buddies can fret about when you get together in front of the fireplace.But, in the mean time, maybe you can diagram the syllogism for me.I always get a kick out of people that say they couldn't care less and then POST TO TELL ME. LOL Explain to me the logic in that Plato.
*Mike,You seem to focus on OSHA, but if you don't stop beating that dead horse, I think PETA will be knocking on your door.Actually, you said something that would have been valid had you posted it earlier. If your knowledge of how the bonfire was built is limited to pictures in the media you might simply have asked. I don't think anyone close to this tragedy has a problem with someone wanting to know what happened. We just don't appreciate people jumping to conclusions and attacking without having those questions answered.Do you really think that a group of engineers, ensconced within spitting distance of this annual event, would not be involved? I would like to see the person that had to try to keep them out. Not to mention the Engineering dep't head as long-time advisor that I referred you to earlier. I believe his name is Grosse, but I'm not sure. I do recall him being in Colorado now.Of course parents are going to be concerned about safety, but those kids are likely in more danger doing any number of activities. A good example is the 6 killed walking along the road weeks before. Or the students killed simply driving home on the weekend.As I recall, the tower of babel fell. Oh my god! The OUTRAGE! Where were the engineers????
Here I go again Dirk, falling prey to your taunts! But you provide such good material....
For the record: No, you do not appear to possess great wit.
I'm glad you're checking my spelling for me Dirk, I guess, like most people (but unlike you), I made and make mistakes. I'm just thanking my lucky stars you're there to look out for me! Of course a guy of your perspicacity would note this...
As for me diagramming the syllogism for you, well,.... In the microcosm you live in, that would be difficult to do. Obviously the environment is there for the taking and no consideration need be given to what is being done to it/with it. So, to try and provide anything resembling deductive reasoning for you Dirk would be a waste of my breath and your time. That remark about the fireplace!!! ROFLMAO!!! Damn you're witty!!!
But I digress. Never claimed to be Plato, far from it. You're actually working pretty damn hard at that yourself. And yes Dirk, your little crack about me POSTING TO TELL YOU is right on, I was expecting that- fully. So with that, I'm getting the hell out of this discussion and moving on to more interesting topics.
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
JOE FINDS A FRIEND!
It figures someone like Joe would find Dirk worth something more than the shitball he is.
Aren't you lucky Dirk?
It's pretty obvious Joe that nobody wants to hear any more bullshit from Dirk, that's why they're not wasting their time here anymore, and maybe it's all for the good of the website, which doesn't need this. What a cute couple.
"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."
Friedrich W. Nietzsche
Add to Your New Messages | Rob T.'s HomepageJOE FINDS A FRIEND! It figures someone like Joe would find Dirk worth something more than the shitball he is. Aren't you lucky Dirk? It's pretty obvious Joe that nobody wants to hear any more bullshit from Dirk, that's why they're not wasting their time here anymore, and maybe it's all for the good of the website, which doesn't need this. What acouple of major dumbf**ks.
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
Bye Bye Ladies,
Thanks for letting me know, again, that you were leaving Sam
Maybe you need the time to read your Thesaurus.
I think you need to brush up on your logic and/or the continuity in your post. In the first paragraph, you tell me I'm not witty, a distinction I never claimed, but later in the post you tell me I AM witty. Which is it Sam?
Of course you won't be answering because you left, right?
Rich, I sense a Pulitzer coming your way. When you wrote the following I was truly touched:
"Its pretty obvious Joe that nobody wants to hear any more bullshit from Dirk, thats why they're not wasting their time here anymore, and maybe it's all for the good of the website, which doesn't need this. What acouple of major dumbf**ks."
Gee, Rich, as touching as that was, it faild to consider the fact that if you, Curley, Shemp, and Moe hadn't come across as such jerks and we might have had a conversation in which you could have learned something.
I've seen a couple of pictures of the bonfire. But I would like to know a few things. How long does it burn big and bright? and how long does it burn any? (if that made sense). How hot does it get at whatever distance it has been measured? Does it show up on satellite photos? If a satellite photo of my license plate is possibe, I would think a pretty dramatic shot of the bonfire is possible.
I can't say that I have timed it, but the primary blaze seems to last a little over an hour. While it burns there is, of course, a big rally with 40,000+ people there, speeches, etc. A big highlight is when it collapses. That's part of the rally.
I don't know about the satellite thing but it certainly seems reasonable. I have to think back to a Gilligans Island episode when they lit an SOS fire when a space capsule was supposed to be over the island. Of course the light from the city might hide it somewhat.
I don't know the temps around the fire but it is pretty damn hot. I recall reading some figures about temps, but I have no idea what they were.
Joe,I believe you mentioned that the facts will speak for them selves. I came across a couple of facts in my morning paper today.
In an article re-printed from the Dallas Morning News we are informed that one of the 2 crane operators working on the stack at the time of its collapse was an un-licensed college student"an apparent violation of a rule that only professional operators may run the cranes"
also we are told that"Already the university has conceded that freshmen and sophmores were allowed to work on the upper levels of the tiered log towerr,contrary to written rules"
Now I freely admidt that I am not familiar with the Dallas Morning News,but I am assuming that it is not run by tree hugging eastern liberals.
I could also be wrong,but I was under the impression that Dirk assured us all that the Stack was carefully supervised,and the "How To" of its construction had evolved over the years a into some sort of a official bonfire manual.(the Dallas Morning News lists it as the Bonfire Safety Handbook) If that is the case then the FACTS seem pretty clear that this year at least some of the rules were not being followed. At this point the FACT is that at least 2 important rules were not followed and I would think it reasonable to wonder what OTHER rules were not followed.
I would also point out that neither I,or the news paper ,implies that the student operating the crane caused the accident.The FACT remains though,that clear cut safety guidelines were violated ,contrary to what we have been told.
I wonder if there are any otherr FACTS out here for us to discover. Stephen
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
Once again, your "big government needs to run our lives" philosophy prevent you from getting the facts.
First, yes, there was an unlicensed student operator on the crane. What you fail to mention is that:
1. He had over 200 hours experience
2. Texas does not require an operator to be licensed
3. OSHA does not require an operator of that type crane to have a license.
4. The "rules" referred to are in two handbooks written in a required technical writing course, which is NOT an official university document.
5. The "rules" stipulate that the crane be operated by a "professional" that knows exactly how to handle the machinery.
It has been stated by WITNESSES that the cranes were not moving logs at the time of the collapse which, if found to be accurate, makes the whole point moot.
Second, as to the underclassmen working on upper tiers, that too is contained in the handbooks but is not a university rule. That being said, it was probably not a wise thing to do, but we have NO information that it contributed to the fall.
WHat I said about the handbook is true, but information is primarily passed from one generation to the next. I never referred to the building of stack as being "closely supervised" in terms of the stifling regulation that you would deem appropriate, but that it was supervised, has a designated faculty coordinator and most of the supervision is done by redpots and brownpots, which I described earlier.
I realize you are just dying to point fingers and assign blame so you can promote even more of the regulation you people so treasure, but we choose to wait for the FACTS.
Your excitement about hearing that a rule in an "official" manual betrays your nature. Unfortunately, as I said above, this is NOT an OFFICIAL university manual. Don't forget, this is a STUDENT run activity.
There was a quote in yesterdays paper from the man heading the investigation that pretty well sums it up: "the commission will not be SPECULATING about what caused the accident, but instead will rely on evidence supplied by numerous sources."
The commission has free access to consultants, experts, etc of their choosing. A&M has given a virtual open checkbook.
You see, we want to get to the truth, evaluate the situation, and determine what action to take. We don't use the liberal tactic of inciting hysteria to accomplish an agenda.
Finally, I will give you some info that will likely make you squeal with delight: The toxicology reports came out yesterday, and two of those killed were intoxicated. The Texas Alchohol Beverage Commission has gotten involved now, as well.
Personally, I think it was a series of circumstances, none of which have yet been revealed, that came together to cause this. Maybe they won't ever determine the specific cause, I don't know. What I do know, however, is that no flaming liberal, tree-hugger, yellow-dog, or otherwise, is going to determine what it was by hearing sound bites or reading snippets in a newspaper. Even a newspaper like the one in Dallas.
Joe,the only things I know about this whole mess is what I have read in 2 newspaper articles and what Dirk has told us.I agree with you when you say that just because I read it doesn't make it a fact.Of course just because Dirk says something,doen't mean it is factual either.
Dirk,I am not sure why you feel I am calling for government regulation in this case. None of my posts have called for it.I am also not sure why you think I am a tree hugging liberal either .( as a minor side matter...I have voted republican in every presidential election since 1980,except once.With 20/20 hind sight I now realize I should not have voted for that one democrat,but then again I should not have voted for one of the republicans either---And I voted for HIM twice!)
All in all,I think I am a fairly conservative guy politically. I do have some social issues that I am interested in ,but I certainly would not want them mandated. I consider them as human issues rather than conservative vs liberal issues.
Now as an entirely different ball game,would anybody care to guess for how much the eventual law suits will be settled for.I am guessing the university will be sued,the crane operators, the crane owners... one of which is owned by the university,the city,the fire department,the building department,the health department,the red pots.....and thats just me thinking.I figure the high priced legal talent that these cases will attract will be able to add to that list. Right or wrong,someone is sure to be found negligent,and I assume the jury will be from Texas
Good Luck All,Stephen
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Joe,all politics aside,I would say that it Is a sad day in America when the leader of the free world,regaurdless of party affiliation,can't get oral from a willing intern.Isn't that a perk of office?I mean the job only pays about $200,000 and how many airforce one ashtrays,and Camp David bath towels can a guy steal?Did you hear the one about the new cigar humidor?
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich W. Nietzsche
*Joe,Bill Clintoni wasimpeached. Just not convicted. But, yes, anything is possible.Rich Beckman
*Joe:did I miss spmething ?I went back & reread all my posts, & couldn't find any statements of fact that were refuted.I never mentioned OSHA once in my text, only in the Header.I don't know what PETA means, but I'm sure it's sinister.And I still haven't heard any description of how the "stack" was supposed to have any inherent stability.I would guess that it's going to be termed an "act of God" because the trees wern't strong enough (Strength of Materials 101 & Good Engineering Practises 303 ).Kind of amazing how this one could evolve into a "circle the wagons" deal.
*Joe, The humidor apparently can preserve expensive cigars indefinitly,maintaining ideal ambient humidity.The only downside is that once the cigars are removed from the humidor they smell like tuna fish.
Joseph FuscoView Image© 1999."Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
Joseph Fusco View Image© 1999."Whenever, therefore, people are deceived and form opinions wide of the truth, it is clear that the error has slid into their minds through the medium of certain resemblance's to that truth." Socrates
*Man oh man,I just found this one today. As a Texan all I can say to you guys is one thing......You forgot that "Dirk" is an Aggie.We take no responsibility for those people."Be true to your school"......give me a break.Ed. Williams
Thats really at the root of the problem, isn't it? You don't have any facts to refute. All you provide is irresponsible speculation, obfuscation of the issue, and attacks on anyone that points out your folly.
You dont't limit yourself to speculation about Bonfire, now you are an expert on the investigation. What happened Mike, someone show you a picture of the investigation? You said that was how you felt qualified to slam Bonfire, something you know nothing about.
You didn't need to mention OSHA, it was clear in the title and subsequent posts that you think the government needs to rush in to regulate every aspect of our lives.
Stephen, I would say that I consider you a tree-huggin liberal because of your immediate and ridiculous leap that compared Bonfire with Slavery, gender discrimination, etc. Oh, BTW, I am all for allowing all-male(and all-women) clubs to exist. I don't want the government dictating who I choose to associate with.
I also considered your non-substantive arguments and your choice to attack rather than debate.
As to oral sex in the oval office, I really dont care if every skank East of the Mississippi is on her knees, but I don't want a lying hypocrite in there that was willing to bring down the intern and put the country through the turmoil he did for sake of his need for power.
Finally, Ed, I would suspect that you are a t-sip but they have shown much more class during this disaster and I suspect education is just not your bag. I wouldn't want to be anything BUT an Aggie. Whooop!
Maybe that's the problem Dirk,I'm carrying on a conversation and you think you are in a debate.The entire topic is of interest to me,but no more interesting than most newspaper stories.My distance from ,and non participation in, the event gives me a different perrspective on the whole situation.It's clearly much more important to you.
good luck all,Stephen
Maybe that is your idea of a discussion, but not mine. I would think that if it were simply an interest of yours you might have asked questions to clear up what you didn't know.
Your baseless criticism had no indications of a conversation, only of an attack. I would think that your distance and non-involvement would have led you to avoid a rush to judgement.
Dirk: thanks for your insight.....I guess we'll wait and see what the courts have to say, and how many of the injured Aggies and bereaved parents stnd by your tradition.
Bye, bye !
Yes, I guess we will see. But thats the point. Lets get some facts. Will there be lawsuits? I cant't speak for the injured parties, but I feel certain there will be. I just wouldn't be *surprised* if there weren't. Maybe "surprised" was too mild, but I wouldn't be shocked.
Anyway, the reason for my post is some info that came out this week that probably hasn't received national coverage.
1. There was a soil analysis done, and it does not appear to be a factor.
2. More significantly, it was in the paper today that at a redpot reunion this Fall, there were concerns about how it was being built.
Specifically, there was a concern that not enough "core" logs were being used in the early construction to give the thousands of logs stability.
There was a memo sent to an administrator approximately three weeks before the collapse:
Former Red Pot:
"We discussed this with some current Red Pots and learned they do not use these types of logs to the extent we did."
"This is what would allow us to support the centerpole and what we felt was necessary for the stack to burn till midnight"
"Red Pots normally tied these logs in personally or closely supervised this activity on each stack."
Larry Grosse, Engineer, Dep't Chair said:
"Shortly after we set the centerpole, we started setting a ring of logs into the ground, about 5 to 8 feet deep, and pulling it tight with a cable."
"We also did this again after the bottom stack reached about a 50-foot diameter. these logs would extend into the second stack and another cable was placed around the stack, providing a strong core."
There were also comments from Engineering Faculty that the stack may have been built in an unsafe way the last few years.
The former Red Pot discussed their concerns while looking at the unfinished stack.
"We left the reunion convinced that this was probably the reason the stack would fall so soon after being ignited"
"Even a three-inch reduction each year can be significant when measured over a long period of time"
Remember, those of you who rush to judgement, this is additional information, not a conclusion.
I will say, however, that it "fits" my common-sense thoughts of what might have happened. I think it would be just another example of how dangerous complacency can be. And I mean complacency from the freshman worker to the Red Pots and the top administrator.
Anyway, just thought I would provide info. I hate to hear it, if it turns out to be true, but I thought it only fair to share it.
Thanks for the update, Dirk. No, I had not heard that, but then I rely mostly on news magazines for all my non local news. So I might "find this out" on Monday or Tuesday. :-}
Just in case anyone is still interested, I thought I would post an update.
Not a whole lot has happened, there was the alcohol thing, and now there is a controversy over that. Most of the injured students apparently weren't tested.
The emphasis has been on collecting data and forming the various teams for the investigation and collecting data.
In todays paper, there was some information, NONE OF WHICH IS ABSOLUTE, but seem very possible.
The headline reads that the ropes steadying the centerpole were cut and there is speculation that was a factor.
There was also a report that a neighbor had been taking digitized photos each day and that the first stack appears to be leaning in the direction of the fall. Again, this is speculation.
It was also noted that the centerpole broke in three places that roughly corresponded with the height of each stack. I take that as meaning it snapped as each layer fell.
Most of this coincides with the concerns that the old redpots had at the reunion, that the base level wasn't secured the way it should have been.
The engineer that used to oversee the process has been quoted in the paper as well. He thinks, and I tend to agree, that it was a series of things, none of which by itself would cause it, but in combination were deadly. Seems to me that is the way most accidents happen.
As to lawsuits, none so far. Some of the families have reiterated their intent to not sue, and most have said they want it to continue, but only time will tell on both matters.
I do think the university is trying to do a first-class investigation. They have hired some top people to assist in the investigation and are spending mucho bucks.
Finally, one student is still hospitalized, and has really been through a battle. I hope you don't feel the need to flame this post, I just thought I would make it in case anyone is interested. I'm not holding anything back, but nothing else comes to mind at the moment.
Thanks for the update. It's funny, the collapse was so heavily covered in the media, but since then I haven't heard anything at all about it.
*Hey Rich,The news media was all over the story in the beginning because of the "Death and Mayhem" aspect of the story. They really wern't interested in the facts of it all, just the blood and guts aspect. Once the story passed the blood and guts aspect, they were no longer interested.One of our local news stations sums it up the best. They actually send a reporter all over the state to videotape and report on terrible accidents where people got hurt or killed. The more mangled the wreckage of the cars, equipment, or whatever, the better.All I can say is they wouldn't keep doing it if there was not an interested audience watching it. I personally think it is a pathetic way to air the news.Just my opinion...James DuHamel
*You're exactly right, James. And it is just that practice on the part of the media that helps some people think that the country's gone to hell.Rich Beckman
*I saw an interview with the President of Texas A & M on tv. He stated that if an investigation revealed that there should have been something he should have done, and didn't, or if the administration was found even partly at fault, he would resign and turn himself in to the local authorities to face possible criminal charges. He stated that he sits and meditates about the incident everyday, and wonders if there was something he should have seen, could have seen, or could have done to prevent this tragedy. He stated that no matter what, he wants an impartial, complete investigation into the whole matter. He said that the buck will stop on his desk, since he is in charge. He stated that he will face the music if necessary.I just thought that this was an admirable thing for a person in his position to do. Most administrators would find anybody, or anything but themselves at fault.James Duhamel
*.....Now that's inspiring leadership.......
At the risk of sounding uninformed (but what else is new). You've all seen the pictures. What could have possessed the powers that be to let a structure like that get built. I know they have a good school of Engineering, where were they ?
What if your kid were there and injured or worse.?
What if that were your construction site, where would you be ? In jail or out on bail ?
Ever been on the roof of a three decker tenament ?
Well that 's like a sidewalk compared to that thing. What am I missing ? I am outraged, and I can't begin to think what those parents are going thru .
*Yeah, I'm kinda' wondering how this could have been allowed--that "structure" was huge! But, let's not call the Feds, okay? Have enough of them already.
*I guess everyone else heard that piece on NPR this afternoon about the tradition of that bonfire. I guess this has been done for many years and all the logs are hand cut by students. There is a semi formal hierarchy that surrounds the whole thing. One guy I heard interviewed said that he hoped this wouldn't mean the end of this tradition since his best lifelong friend and he forged their friendship out in the woods cuttin' logs for that thing.All I could think about though was, like Mike said, the parents of those poor kids, geez.
*Someone is going to get sued big time over this! I agree, where was the proper supervision? The news stated there were outside contractors on site-- did you see the size of the cranes they were using to set the log pile up? Those cranes weren't being run by students or teachers. The college should have been keeping a closer eye on this "project".
*As a former student (15yrs) and experienced Bonfire stack jockey, I must say that the whole thing is a tragedy, and knowing how traditions are at A&M, there will be a long lasting memorial to those that gave their life following the tradition. This is not the first time loss of life has occured while someone was working on the bonfire, it has happened before. The Bonfire Committee spends a great deal of time in instructing all people that perform any task associated with the construction of the stack on SAFETY. As in any type of construction, or any activity, safety ultimately boils down to the actions or inaction of one or more individuals... Take for instance the Egypt Air deal.... I too wonder if maybe someone just "went to sleep at the wheel". Any student or former student of A&M that has spent any time on the construction of the stack is troubled by this event and no doubt wonders how this could have happened. Nothing that is said or done now will bring these fellow aggies back, but through investigation, hopefully this will be prevented in the future. The construction of the Bonfire stack is indeed a true construction and engineering feat, it is done with many parties involved, and with deep tradition. The Whole tradition is attacked yearly by all sorts of "anti" groups, but tradition is one thing that is tough to change at A&M. A&M will endure, to drop this tradition now will symbolize nothing to those who have lost their lives.