Pricing.
I have a good client that wants his whole house trimmed, high end stuff. mantle w/bookcases, three or four piece crown, window casing, stairs, base the works.
I can do the work, but I really stink at pricing trim. I’m considering offering him T&M or simply my hourly rate.
Can anyone offer some help? I’m looking forward to this job as he is a good client and we pretty much built the rest of the house, but I dont want to lose money or rip him off.
Thanks.
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Replies
Watch out or that type of work will eat your lunch.
If you don't do that kind of work on a regular basis your speed will be way down compared to someone who does. Even if you've done that kind of work in the past, what you've done the past few months building the house has made you much slower.
We've just transitioned from rough to finish on our current job and it's been painful keeping quality and speed.
I know contractors in your shoes who have been off on their estimates by a factor of 2, 3, or even 4.
Personally, I'd go with T&M so there is less risk, or give yourself a sizable safety margin on the bid. If you make out like a bandit, there isn't a law against giving some of it back.
You could also pay an estimator or trim contractor to come up with a ballpark number.
Along the same lines maybe it's better to bid the areas you are the most familiar with, and T&M those that are harder to pin down.
Good trimming
Thats the thing. I've told my client that I may not be the right guy for the job. I said "I can do it but i'll be slower than a trim carpenter and i'll either have kill you on price or lose my a$$".
He said he wants me to do the work and lets work something out. I'm supposed to talk to him tomorrow and give him a ball park, he has trimmed out his own houses in the past and did a great job on them, but having done this in the past he still hasnt made all his final choices for trim yet. Thats one reason why i'm considering T&M cause I still dont have a clear view of all i'll have to do.
BTW we rebuilt most of his house in 04/05. He has been consiering his trim options for awhile. I built the raised panel wainscoting in his bathroom and thought it came out pretty good, so like I said I know I can do the job, i'm just terrible at pricing trim out.
Thanks for the input though. I think i'll push for T&M.
The client is confident in your abilities and to him (it appears) it's worth it to have you do the job although a trim carp may be less expensive. That's the nice thing about doing consistantly good work--you end up not competing with others on price alone. Don't feel bad for providing piece of mind.
:-)
Come up with your hourly price. Start with the easy stuff like the window casing, doors, base, and see how it goes. If it goes too slow and you are billing more than you are worth talk to the guy and see if he wants to hire it out to someone else. That way you dont feel guilty about going too slow and he has the option of firing you with no hard feelings. Id kind of go over this plan with the customer first before you start work too. If he really wants you to do the work he should go for it.
Good idea. As I said, i'm supposed to meet with him this weekend and I think thats what i'll suggest. We have a good relationship and I feel like I can be frank with him.
Just give him a fair hourly rate.
that said ... my real advice is to bite the bullet and bid it. If you can do the work ... and have done the work ... U know how long U think it'll take.
I have a buddy that does high end kitchens. All day every day ... and after 5 yrs ... he's still afraid of giving a bid ...
why ... because he's never given a bid!
So ... he works hourly ... and since that market is smaller ... he prices himself low. So ... each and every day ... he's making less than he should.
U don't learn how to bid till U bid.
U don't learn how to bid well till U eat a few.
and U really can't grow and make real money till U bid ...
so ...
like my Dad says ... hey, college cost money too ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
"my real advice is to bite the bullet and bid it"
I'll second that."...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Thanks for the good advice. However, i'm intimately familiar with this house and the clients taste in trim and its gonna take awhile. Were talking about three or four piece crown on not necessarily flat ceilings and casing doors that are gonna need some plaster gouging to make it fit.
I know how long my wainscoting takes and how long it takes to case a door, but there will be some special circumstances at this house.
I still may go in hourly on this one. I did take the time to price out individual tasks and if I trim this place in my alloted time it worked out exactly to my hourly rate.
MSA1, take Jeff's advice.
You've mentioned "special circumstances". You can't bid them unless they are drawn out in full detail. Leave those areas as T & M. Bid the areas that you can with a firm bid.
I guess you could call this a hybrid bid.
blue
I think hybrid would be a good description. Alot of the details havent been worked out yet and that makes it (really) impossible to bid.
I know i'm building a mantle flanked w/bookcases, but no details on the mantle itself.
I have been asked to do work like this for customers that we have done other things in the past for as well. Sometimes I realize that my production rates aren't as high as someone else who does it every day and I take that into consideration when quoting an hourly rate for these types of jobs. It's true that I could be working somewhere else for a little bit more per hour but these people have a level of trust established and a good relationship. I don't have to chase them down to get the final payment and I know that they always call me first because they are satisfied with the work that we do... that has an added value for me as well as for them. I would probably just do it T&M at a slightly discounted rate because if you pass it up completely it leaves the customer feeling slightly betrayed... meaning "we payed him well for all the major work and now he doesn't want to come back for the less desirable stuff" - not a good way to do business in my opinion.
How about giving a price for just one room, or some other way break it up into a number of smaller jobs? See how that goes, in terms of cost/time, then go from there?
Or maybe that's a bad idea for a bunch of reasons?
I really don't know, as I'm new to this business, and still learning as I go. The idea came to mind because I have a potential client right now interested in a whole house restoration. That's a bit overwhelming, and I'd have no idea how to estimate the entire job. So I've suggested we break the project down to fairly small, specific jobs -- starting with some structural work in the basement.
Allen
Most builders mistake the job they are hired to do. They think they are hired because they are god emperor builder and the scat don't stink. WRONG! people get hired because the client feels he can trust you to protect his money. thats what he hires you to do. spend his money wisely. lot's of people care more about their money than they do their wives.(some of them I can't blame). Sounds like this client trusts you with his money. Don't let him down. Jim Devier