Since we’ve gotten city water and sewer about fifteen years ago, I’ve had continuing freezing problems. And have had to hire several different people to use a electric welder to thaw the pipes.
This last go round the
man had a new welder 230amps, we’er thawing about 1ooft of 1 1/4″ copper. He spent six hours and we didnt get it thawed. His cables barely got warm.
Next day I got a different guy he had a Miller 40 300 Amp rig he was on it for three hours with cold cables. I finally suggested he crank it up till the cables got warm and we had water in twentyminutes.
I’m interested in how many watts it takes to thaw the frozen water in the pipe in the frozen ground? With that info I think you might use ohms law to figure volts and amps? Or how to determine amp setting to do the job most effiecently?
Replies
I can't help with the welder questions, Jim, but I wonder if you don't have a fundamental problem with your water main. Do your neighbors have this problem? We had record cold here this year, but it sounds like you have this freezing regularly. Did the city run your main? Maybe it needs to be deeper.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
That is strange. Around here they are typically run 8 feet deep.
Actually, I've never heard of using an electric welder. Not sure how that would work, but sounds interesting.
Corey - I thought of you when i read the original post ... next time my mom's pipes freeze, I know someone with a welder! Bill.
Yeah Bill, I have a welder, but still do not know how to use it to thaw pipes. I could put my carbon arc attachment on it, but that would melt the pipe. Must be more to it...
Why aren't mom's pipes 8 feet under? Too much ledge over there?
Corey - not a spec of ledge ... nothing but sand ... I think the squirrels have removed some insulation in a critical spot, exposing a pipe to the cold ... long story ... but the squirrel threads are my favorites ... Bill.
Well, that's because your brothers feed them all that corn and stuff.
Also, I always release my squirrels down at the farm. (just kidding!)
I'll take a chance. My guess is that you attach one cable to one end of the pipe and the other cable to the other end of the pipe and let the resistance heating do the job.
Give the man the prize!
Back before they lowered our frost depth to 30", I use to work part time for a plumber thawing lines each really cold winter. Hook one lead to the line at the meter vault and one under the house, usually where it turned up into a wall or floor. He would crank up the welder and the pipe would thaw pretty quickly. Then the real fun began, fixing the split and blown pipes in a wet crawlspace.
BTW we always took any ground clamps and wires off of the copper pipes. I am not sure it was necessary, but he always made sure we did.
Another trick I found years later for working in wet crawl spaces was to wear a scuba divers wet suit under my coveralls. I still got wet, but the 1/4" neopreme wetsuite kept me warm enough to finish the job.
Never tried really long runs of frozen underground pipe. About fifty to sixty feet were the max.
Dave
Another trick I found years later for working in wet crawl spaces was to wear a scuba divers wet suit under my coveralls. I still got wet, but the 1/4" neopreme wetsuite kept me warm enough to finish the job.
Might be too technically anal here <G>...that would be a DRY suit...a wet suit has a layer of water inside to keep ya warm..
Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?
"Might be too technically anal here <G>...that would be a DRY suit...a wet suit has a layer of water inside to keep ya warm.."
Not exactly.
A dry suite is designed to stay dry. I has tight water resistant cuffs and hood.
A wet suite while tight is design to allow leakage of water and to allow a thin layer of water next to the skin which is quickly warmed up.
I use one when water skiing. Even though it only last a fraction of a section it is "exciting" when the cold water starts coming in.
But was is really fun is the first fall and getting your face in it.
Don't know if you don't know the difference or not.
that's what I meant..dry suit is what he would be wearing. I've got both. Did underwater plumbing for house boat waste sys. Had both in the Navy as well.
Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?
No dry suite, just a custom made 1/4" wet suite. I don't think I could get my coveralls over a dry suit.
I used that trick for water line and gas line repair work in wet crawl spaces sometime after 1985 when I certified. Before that I got real wet and real cold.
What did you do in the Navy? I was a radarman on a bird farm durring my hitch back in 68.
Dave
Much later...'78. Vanguard Patrol. P3/A Orion. After all the other BS and Annapolis. Flew and moniterd sona-bouy's..boring.
Wet, Dry..as longas ya stay KINDA warm..still sweat inside too.
Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?
Which carrier? I was on the Hancock (CVA-19) in '72.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
Independence CVA-62. Couple of Med. cruises (9 mos. ea.) and a North Atlantic, overhaul and refit times and I was out. No chance of getting out of AirLAnt, or I would have stayed in for 20. I was NTDS designated, so duty choices were very limited. I just did not like those nine month deployments after my son was born.
CVA-19. Sounds old, was it angl angle deck carrier? Right or left cost?
Dave
Built in 1944 as a straight deck, but refitted with an angle after the Korean conflict. It was out of San Diego, but I left just prior to West Pac for Nuke school and sub duty in Hawaii, which I don't regret at all. Small crew of the sub made the whole service thing much more palatable. I got out after 10 years a few months after getting married. I couldn't see raising a family in that type of enviroment either; had seen to many marriages fail because of it.
Don't matter now, though. Independence, Hancock, Patrick Henry (my old sub) and a lot more have long been turned into Toyotas, probably several times over.
I never met a tool I didn't like!
"Back before they lowered our frost depth to 30","
How did they do that? I thought that nature did that and wouldn't lower it cause MORE problems.
I know what you ment, but it just struck me the way that it came across.
BTW, do you remember Dec 89. We had a real cold snap. In Kansas City I think that we got down to -25 and about 2 weeks below -10.
And Christmas I was in Louisville and my newphew was called out for "fireruns" clean up broken pipes. One new apratment building, might have been in DOuglass Hills or Plainview had open chases where the cold air froze almost all of the pipes in the building.
Around KC you could see driveway after drive with sheets of ice coming out of the garage door from busted pipes.
But the cold spell was so quick it there was no problem with in ground pipes. In fact the lake did not freeze over.
He would crank up the welder and the pipe would thaw pretty quickly.
Duty cycle of the welder is the critical issue here. Exceed that and you won't have much life span of the welder. With high amps, the duty cycle may be down to 10%, 6 minutes out of an hour. This is probably why he went for shorter runs. For long pipe thawing, the amperage needs to be set down to the 100% duty cycle. This is where larger, more expensive, welders pay for themselves. My vote's for insulation instead.
Frozen pipes are also happening around here this year for the first time in recent memory. A neighbor just dug up a long run of sewer pipe under his asphalted driveway. My well head briefly froze. Time to reconfigure it.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Well , Ive learned something on Breaktime today. I thought I had heard it all but evidently I havent on freezing dwellings.
You mention its in the ground thats froze and its 100 ft , if I read the post right . I didnt hear you mention how deep it is realitive to your area as how deep it needs to be . Anyway :
Somebody on here posted sterefoam in 1/2 inch being worth so many inches of dirt. It supprized me . So, I put in a water cistern above grond and wrapped it in 6 sheets thick and put an enclosed deck over it . We are staying below freezing right now and I checked it yesterday . The water is not even cold !
While someone will probably answer your question which I have never heard of doing , I cant help to ask why not "fix it ". ?
So my questions to add to yours would be : how much dirt is the pipe insulation worth? The question arises too when a ditch is not deep enough if pipe insulation plus laying sterofoam in the ditch wouldnt fix the problem if the ditch couldnt be dug deeper ?
Im a very big fan of preventative maitenence . To hire a welder with truck here would certainly be very expensive that many hours. I would also like to know how its done .
Thanks for the post ,
Tim Mooney
There is an electrical device made specifically for thawing pipes. It is simply a big step down transformer - something like a welder except without all the controls. I have one and it steps 220 down to something like 12 volts at 250 amps. I have never used to thaw pipes, however, as I bought it for cheap to try and make myself a spot welder - which I haven't done yet. A description of a similar, but more expensive, unit:
http://www.ridgid.com/Manuals/KT-190_200manual.pdf
Hi Tim
Seems like I heard somewhere that soil has a R value of about 1 per foot. of course there are diffrent soil types , so who really knows.
I grew up in a well-fed house that was a couple hundred feet from the well. The line ran atop some ledge, with between 12-24" of dirt on top. If we didn't leave the water running when it got cold, the line would freeze and we would call the guy with a welder, who would hook up to both ends and melt the ice. Never took more than 1/2 and hour.
Tim
The service line from thew main to the bldg is about 100 ft , from the main in the street to the property line is about 25 ft the main is 8 in ductile iron and 9 ft deep in the well traveled road, no added insulation. From the curb stop ( a stop and waste valve) at the property line to the bldg is insulated. It dosent freeze. I proved that to the borough by closing the the stop and waste and put air presure on on the water sytem in the bldg, and water came out the waste and up the riser. I've wanted to do that for quiet a while. So now the borough pays.
We have had some pretty cold weather this year several nights down around -40 C and not up to 0 degrees during the day.I cant say what insullation should be I think I put in about 4 in. two ft wide over the . We are now runing the water a steady stream where it will run into the ground till spring
Back in about 1980 I worked maintenance at a prison. It was in really poor repair due to budget cuts of the times. We had a couple of really cold winters and froze steam lines, house plumbing even a sewer pit once. So I got to thaw a large number of different types of pipe in many ways. A welder is one of them.
Similar to what Uncle says. Clamp the ground clamp on one end and take the electrode holder off the other and vise grip the cable to the other end of the pipe. Crank it up and wait. We thawed an 1 1/2" steam pipe 50' at a time one night. Really as was said above. Thawing wasn't bad. Repair while laying in a crawl space or in a grade level tunnel in the wind while wet was bad. DanT
I guess if I tried that with my little mig I'd burna hole in the pipe..
"Honey, I need a stick welder"
Go Stab yourself Ya Putz! Ya think I Parked here?
All great men can relate the need of a tool to any occasion. You are a great man. DanT