Have what I think is a problem and I’m hoping for some good advice. We are building a new home with a GC that comes with a good business record and good recommendations. Problem is every original quote for the job is coming up short when it actually gets to getting th work done. Excavation, foundation and framing were right on the money.
The first problem started with electric rough-in. It appears his original quote suddenly didn’t include the all the fixtures (ceiling cans, low voltage etc, decora switches etc) that the plan specified but “regular electric rough-in” and “standard fixtures” whatever that is. Well what it adds up to is $3500 additional into the price of the contract.
The siding was next, the quoted price for siding and installation apparently doesn’t include caulking at seams and around doors and windows. When we complained at our last roundtable we were told “all contractors charge seperately for caulking, its never included in the installation”.
They even followed up the meeting with another change order asking for an additional $2k for the fireplace hearth installation because the $2500 in the budget that says fireplace insert purchase and installation apparently doesn’t include the hearth that is clearly in the plans.
So besides ending up in court at the end of this job how do we put a stop to this or are we just looking at dumping the GC and hoping someone else will finish our half finished home?? Any suggestions? Any GC’s who also think this is nuts have good advice on how to nip this in the bud?
Replies
You say that the plans call for all the bells and whistles. WHat does the contract call for?
Thanks for the reply, I am really not trying to "get away" with upgrades I don't want to pay for, just trying to see what you (the builders) think of my situation, am I getting taken for a ride?
Here is the siding and fireplace references,
Siding- Install prestained horizontal 1/2x6 clear cedar bevel siding below, prestained clear cedar vertical siding above with 1x3 clear window and door trim, 1x12 prestained knotty cedar to soffit line. Per plan. Including all labor, materials and prestaining. Line item # $$$$
Fireplace - Install (brand, size, spec) fireplace insert - line item # $$$. Includes backdraft and flue (type, spec)- line item# $$$ all cold air supply venting, required electrical and gas supply rough-in. Per plan and code. Including all labor and materials. Line item # $$$$
So what I am hearing is that if it is not specifically spelled out in the contract it wasn't part of the bid. Is per plan just a catch all? And how can you call siding installed if it isn't caulked?
The second thing I get from your reply is unless it is specifically in the contract like "frame building LEVEL AND PLUMB, USING NAILS..." I get whatever they throw together?
Shoev...
I think you're taking a much more negative view of our responses than is merited. The majority of us (maybe all, I'd have to reread the thread) are saying that you likely have valid complaints, but are asking for clarification. Mike in particular spent a fair amount of time asking you for some details in order to give you a reasoned, professional reply.
We're trying to help, or at least give you an accurate answer, we're not the enemy here.
PaulB
BTW, as I mentioned, if the plan shows a hearth, and the contract says "per plan" I think you have him dead to rights as an example.
Edited 4/23/2007 5:05 pm ET by PaulBinCT
A good set of specifications might run over a hundred pages for a detailed bidded project. And that will not likely cover everything.
Just to address two of the items you have problems with.
1. Caulk on the siding. It does not mention this at all in your specifications. If our company was building your house, we would not use caulk. The siding would fit tight to the window casings with no gap. The only place for caulk would be under the siding against the casing. You wouldn't know if it was there or not and in any event it would not do anything to prevent leaks or rot. You will not find caulk under the siding of buildings that are over one hundred years old.
If someone specifies caulk we will use it, though we think it is a waste of time with carefully fitted wood siding.
2. Fireplace mantle. Did the plan specify the type of material and finish details? If it did, you should expect this to be included in the final price. If it is merely a couple of lines on an interior elevation, this can cover a wide range of options and the builder would be justified in putting up almost anything. Is this what you want? If not, you should be glad to pay for what you want.
You may have good reason to suspect that your builder is trying to take advantage of every loophole he can find and making you fight for the execution of every detail that you deserve. I recently gave advice to a family friend who is having trouble with a contractor who was doing a renovation for him. I told him that if he did not trust the contractor, he should meet with him, come to an agreement about what he owed for the work that was completed satisfactorily and get someone else to finish the job. I told him that he should be ready to take a little bit of a loss on the work already done in the interest of making a clean break and that he should be ready to pay a bit more than he originally anticipated to have the job finished.
Without knowing the details of your situation, I would be inclined to give the same advice. OTOH, if you are generally satisfied with the work other than some minor overruns, you should probably just suck it up. It is unlikely that you will get a better contractor to finish the job for less money. Keep in mind that any new contractor will talk to the orignal guy before he gives you a price on the work. Good luck.
i am curious to know if you got bids from other contractors for this job or if you just got a bid from and hired this contractor?
if it went the competitive bid route whereby several contractors gave you a price, and the contractor that got the job knew this going in, that would explain a lot of the charges you are seeing.
i agree with schellings response, its a judgement call for a lot of things, and very debatable whether or not to caulk, in fact who suggested it?
it may well be that the contractor needs to hang and then paint your front door in a bright fluorescent orange color, thereby giving you something to focus on while he does his work, then he can repaint the door as a last thing before final payment.
i would give him a little rope, and tell him that you expect the quality craftsmanship that his reputation provided which is why you hired him in the first place. with many negotiations he who speaks first loses, so try not to tell him how to do his job, and if he asks you what you want answer the question by asking him what is standard, what did he plan/bid?
Thanks everyone.
If I do exercise the "for any reason" clause to mutually scrap the relationship I doubt it would be a money saver in the long run. So if that happens it won't be because I am expecting more than I am paying for, may as well shoot my own foot.
Having never had a custom home built this is all new to us and budgets make every change order painful. I also am wishing I had one of you guys like a Schelling or MikeSmith when we were getting GC bids to add clarity and take some of the stress out of an already stressful process. I can read ours and see all kinds of room for "difference of opinions".
And some of the reasons for hiring this GC had as much to do with how he treats his employees (job security, health coverage, guys working there for 20+ years) his charity efforts (giving back to the community), and his reputation for "making it right" if we have problems down the road.
And one comment for any others that may be on my end of these contracts......if it doesn't say it in black and white don't assume someone will deliver it just because you think that is the only way it can be done. There are a million hearths, a dozen ways to put in doors and windows and apparently siding with or without caulk...(I'll let you builders hammer that one out amongst yourselves ;>)
shoev
The fireplace deal is his fault for sure. If the fireplace is in the contract then it has to have a hearth. Code dictates the size of them based on the units size.
Like buying a car, go to pick it up and he wants more for the tires after you paid for it.
Does the siding need to be painted? Is the painter supposed to caulk?
Try to meet him half way on things that have fallen into the grey areas. Others like the hearth tell him to ante up.
A good set of specifications might run over a hundred pages for a detailed bidded project. And that will not likely cover everything.
Just for a little perspective, the group my husband works for has about 25 feet of documentation (that's 8.5x11 sheets stacked 25' high, not 25' long!!) detailing how to prepare and ship a drum of transuranic waste to the permanent storage facility here, all the safety requirements and analyses for the facility, all the operating procedures for the facility. The contractors and regulatory agencies involved still argue over various points on a weekly basis!
Kathleen
"25 feet of documentation (that's 8.5x11 sheets stacked 25' high, not 25' long!!) detailing how to prepare and ship a drum of transuranic waste to the permanent storage "
I'll bet that is some seriously dry reading.
Fireplace - Install (brand, size, spec) fireplace insert - line item # $$$. Includes backdraft and flue (type, spec)- line item# $$$ all cold air supply venting, required electrical and gas supply rough-in. Per plan and code. Including all labor and materials. Line item # $$$$
That's only part of the Mechanical section of the plans and contract. Actually, just in that short clause, it's part of mechanical, electrical, plumbing, and HVAC. Three licenses and possibly a manufacturers certificatation. All four of which could be different sub contractors.
The considerations for the fireplace also show up in the foundation section. It has to consider if the fireplace is or is not a born load, in your case it may not be.
The framing section. Twice; as a flooring problem and as wall framing.
Finished flooring, including the hearth area, even if just to exclude the hearth.
Drywall.
Painting, and;
Trim, which may include masons or sheet metal fabricators.
Just the fireplace must be thought about in at least eleven different areas of contracting. Check the Flooring and Finishes sections of your contract for mention of the hearth.SamT
Praise the Corporation, for the Corporations' highest concern is the well being of the public.
Seems to me that caulking is part of workmanship. If they do not caulk the house leaks and rots...then they have to repair prematurely. I call BS on the caulk. That is part of a correctly installed siding product.
I would ask if they do siding jobs without caulk?
Sounds like they underbid to get the work and are now trying to recover money. Call his bluff...stop work and payments. Tell him until this is resolved nothing continues. Start shopping other GC's.
Sounds like you MAY have some legit beefs. Does the original price include any specified allowance for elec fixtures? Maybe the price difference is due to upgrades, whcih would be understandable. As to things like caulking, assuming you're not asking for some kind of minute detailing that's unusual I'd say you're justified. Ditto on the hearth, if it was included in the plans, I'd say you're justified in expecting it included in the quote.
PaulB
shoey... how does your contract read ?
does it reference the plans ? are there any "specificatioons " referenced ?
if it references the plans , what do the plans show ? what are the "specs " on the siding
and what are the specs on the painting
is this a "turn-key " ? he's building it from "start to you moving in " ?
what does it say about landscaping ?
what happened with the roof ?
what is the interior trim ?
and the kitchen cabinets ?
what kind of "Allowance Schedules " are included ?
what about finish flooring
and interior painting ?
a good contract will also have an "exclusions " portion... what is NOT INCLUDED
does yours have one ..... and if so.... what are the exclusions ?
Edited 4/23/2007 4:58 pm ET by MikeSmith
Shoev,
What does the contract say? How do they reference the plans/drawings? Do they reference any standards for completion of the work?
I would expect caulking to be part of siding installation. As others have said, do they do jobs w/o caulking? Seems like that should be part of the normal course of construction and therefore included in a complete installation of siding.
Just curious, what was the charge for the caulking?
You said, "$2500 in the budget that says fireplace insert purchase and installation apparently doesn't include the hearth that is clearly in the plans."
In my experience, $2500 should cover the purchase and installation of a gas fireplace including plumbing the gas line, necessary elec. and final setup/fireoff. Depending on the design and materials of the hearth, I don't think all of it would be included in the $2500.
However, if they referenced the plans and said they would install the fireplace "complete in place as per the drawings" or something to that effect, then I think they owe you a hearth.
I'm a little confused. If this is T&M or anything else that isn't a fixed price bid, then you surely understand that estimates are estimates?
Since when does wiring rough in include switches and can light trim? This should have been communicated, or maybe it was and it just didn't make sense at the time? Many times clients nod and appear to understand the nuts and bolts of construction, only to later ask questions as if they weren't at the same meeting the rest of us were.
"Installing" an insert fireplace does not include what you think it includes. In HVAC terms it is simply putting it in place and hooking it up so it functions. Anything else is cosmetic and isn't the responsibility of the HVAC installer. Your interpretation of install may include more, but that's again a communication problem between you and the GC, not necessarily him trying to rob you blind.
Carpenters put up wood, painters caulk. Does your paint quote include caulking? While it won't make the pages of FHB, many times wood siding isn't caulked, regardless of what you think it should include.
What you have is a communication problem. What you are being asked to pay for sounds reasonable, but the GC needs to better communicate what is and isn't included. By your own admission at least half your house was right in line with the budget.
Don't assume he's trying to take you for a ride, he might be pulling his hair out trying to figure out how to communicate these details to you. Simply ask him to walk you through what is and isn't included in the remainder of the job and clarify everything now rather than pointing fingers when your understanding doesn't match his.
So besides ending up in court at the end of this job
If a client ever mentioned that they would be put on a very short rope and all my good will to that point would be spent. If you are wanting the GC's best efforts to finish your house, this is definitely not the way to do it.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I gotta ask about the lighting, because the $3500 premium made me take notice.
Did your plans and specs include a wiring and lighting plan for each part of the house?
Did your specs call out the specifics of switching and receptacles, including make and model?
Does your lighting fixture schedule call out everything by make and model, and specify lamps? Read "lamps" as light bulbs.
If the answers to these electrical questions is "yes, all were clearly called out," then your GC is taking you for a ride, by having suckered you into a low number, and now hitting you up for the "extras" he is claiming are over and above whatever he is claiming is "standard."
And it is likely that the lighting is the tip of the iceberg. You are gonna get a real good lesson in what is meant by the word "standard." My thinking is it oughta have a "sub" in front of it.
Edited 4/24/2007 11:29 am ET by Gene_Davis
I think I'd stop the job right now and sit down with the contractor to discuss the rest of the work and the specs. My guess is that you have minimal plans and specs and that you put them out to bid. Unfortunately that is a serious mistake and you have put yourself at a disadvantage. As a layperson you do not have the knowledge you need to read and understand everything that the contractor puts in a contract or a set of specs... I mean, you can read the words but do you understand the implications of everything written? Doubt it.
If you paid a designer to do the plans and specs, you probably stopped short of paying enough to get them REALLY complete... and by that I mean so complete that the contractor and subs will not have any leeway in how things are done. I have rarely ever seen plans and specs like that in residential, and I have seen many instances where the owner paid for basic work by the designer and felt like it was enough.
If you put your plans out to bid then you deliberately encouraged each bidder, including the guy you hired, to price things as low as possible given the info provided. Problem is, you probably don't want bottom-of-the-barrel work, but when you shop for a contractor like that you risk getting exactly what you are now getting.
Anyway, at this point I would call a time-out and see where you stand on the rest of things. I am not encouraged by what I've read so far. We don't caulk siding either--I would have no reason to ask you to pay for caulk, so in my view the GC may be trying to soak you for an un-needed extra. You don't need a Johnson rod replaced in your car either. I suppose the GC may be a guy who caulks siding, but it is absolutely unnecessary (at least with the cedar bevel and all of the wood siding types we do). It is true that the painter may caulk where siding meets trim, but that is to provide a tight transition for paint, not to keep water out. If you are using stained material caulk is a complete no-no--the material has to be installed tightly with no expectation that the painters will save the day.