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I found this forum about three weeks ago and have been following the various discussions with a fair bit of interest. On a number of threads, the issue of building inspection has raised a fair number of comments, both pro and (mainly) con. One of the threads in particular had a poster who commented that he had never seen a Inspector reply to any topics that had been brought up. Maybe it is time to change that.
Here is some background to begin with. I am a Government Building Inspector working in British Columbia. I have been an inspector for 8 years and prior to that I worked the tools for 16 years.
Here are a few “facts” that I will throw out to begin with:
1) Inspectors are human. What I mean by that is that you will find the whole spectrum of personality types when you deal with them. You will find the “Hard Ass” as often as you find the “Pushover”. You will find inspectors who are very good at their jobs and you will find idiots. Personality traits of the builders enter into this as well, and you may find a fellow you can get along with but the contractor down the street can not stand. Some inspectors do very well with homeowner builders and others shudder at the thought of holding someone’s hand through a major project.
2) Inspectors don’t make the rules. You have to remember that every item that is found in a building code has been placed there as a result of something happening. Inspectors, by law, don’t have the power to vary the code. Most codes however have provisions for “equivalencies”, but it is the builder’s responsibility to prove the method or material to the inspector BEFORE IT IS INSTALLED! (And no, just because someone else did it, God knows where, it doesn’t mean that you can.) If you don’t understand why something is being called ask the inspector. If he or she can’t answer your question, or find someone who can, they should be doing something else for employment.
3) When dealing with an inspector pretend you are talking to a mirror. If you shoot off your mouth at your first meeting I can guaranty that your future association will each other will be less than wonderful. I have seen a few people here advocating going over an inspector’s head by going to the chief . This should only be a measure of last resort, and only if you are 100% sure the guy is of the brain dead type. A chief will almost always side with his inspector, right or wrong.
4) Building codes do not address fit and finish aspects of a building. The building codes only provide for a minimum level of structural adequacy, energy conservation, and occupant safety. For example I have never seen a code that stated that interior gypsum board had to be painted, or that any interior doors, other than at one bathroom, are required in a single family dwelling. Proper lap joints at vinyl siding are there to shed rain not to prevent the sheathing paper from showing through. I for one would never buy a house that was built to only meet the minimum code requirements.
5) Finally, remember that not everyone who the inspector deals with builds to the same high standards that you do. The inspector gets to see some of the most unbelievable sights ever seen in the construction world. Never, and I repeat never, underestimate the power of human stupidity. Some builders just don’t know any better and worse some just don’t care.
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Jack,
Thanks for this post with a view from "the other side"
Your points are well taken.
On point #2 however, I will tell you I have had a number of encounters where I think inspectors did make the rules. My reading of the code doesn't always agree with theirs. I usually plead my case, but I don't get confrontatioal about it. Just make the change, keep the job moving.
Maybe in B.C. it is normal for inspectors to have extensive experience in the field. I can assure you that around here, that is becoming quite a rarity. The Old Guard is mostly gone, and the replacements are infuriatingly weak(I'm being diplomatic) on practicle experiance.
Thanks for your comments,
John
*Hey John, thanks for the comment. I don't know which region you work in but here in BC there is an appeal board in place in order to mediate differences of opinion between the inspector and the builder. It is not a "quick fix", and may in fact take 2-3 months, but the answer will be there for the next time the problem arises. It is interesting to note that almost half the time the appeal board rules in favour of the builder. As for inspectors with a construction background I'm afraid there are not too many of us left. I am not real sure that is a totaly bad thing as a few of us, myself included, can bring bad habits over with us. Just because we have been doing it wrong for 20 years doesn't make it right.
*Thanks Jack, and don't make yourself scarce on this board. There are many times when your opinion here would be helpful. I realize you might have some reluctance offering help, but your take on things would add so much to the discussion. Give it some thought.
*Maybe I'm just lucky, but I've never had to work with a building inspector I couldn't get along with. I like to think it's my approach to dealing with people. I'm basically selfish. It's in my self interest to get the project to proceed as quickly and efficiently as possible. To that end, I take the time before I even apply for permits to meet with the inspector and ask him or her specifics about what he wants to see on the job, when he wants to be called, etc. You would be amazed at how far that goes toward good will and smooth inspections. When the inspector arrives on site I'm sure the job is safe and cleaned up. I go with the inspector around the project so that "I'm available to answer any questions or concerns". I have a tool kit with me and if it's within my power I'll fix something then and there. In short, I do whatever I can to diffuse what could be set up (and often is..) as an adversarial relationship, and turn it in to one of cooperation. It's in my best interest to keep him happy and get him out of there as quickly as possible, so I can finish the job and get paid. Like I said I'm basically selfish..
*I want to make it clear to everyone that I speak only for myself, not for any other inspectors or my association. With that said I will let you in on something. When I am going onto a new site, with a builder I have not met before, the first thing I look at is his pick-up. If the truck looks like it has never been washed, and there is garbage and tools hanging out all over the place it is a good bet that his work will be up to the same standards. I had one last year where the back seat of this guys car was full of empty beer cans(to the point where the floor boards couldn't hold them and they were half way up the seat). He ended up with a deficiency list of over 30 items on a framing inspection for a 1000 sq ft, one storey house.
*In my limited experience, conflicts and headaches with inspection arise from bad communication. This is not just misinterpretation of the rules, but some simple human courtesies. I have found problems with inspectors on simple issues like making appointments.My most infuriating experience came not from an inspector citing my work but from one who did not show up for appointments. As a civic (read MY) employee, this type of lax, half assed attitude does not make me happy with the profession. My taxes and permits are paying for some one not to hold up my work due to laziness or sloppiness.In contrast, inspectors who have shown the professionalism to show up, have been a great asset to me and demonstrated thorough competence.
*Thank you for your input Jack. My truck looks like hell, but no beer cans. Actually I hide it during inspections. It is refreshing to have you here for we depend on eachother and it is often frustrating to feel the gap between both camps. Communication is paramount but intimidation, fear and disrespect are too often present for comfort. I personally never have communication issues with an inspector but rather I have issues with competence. In spite of the bad mouthing that goes on behind inspectors backs, a vast portion of contractors fears them. Before I became licenced, my bosses often became agitated before an inspection, some began shaking and making stupid remarks... Of course for one of them, a plumber, there was reasons as one of his crew was using a bicycle pump at the other end of the building to keep steady pressure in the leaky plumbing during pressure test inspection... A good job and sound communication should be all it takes, but somehow even under the best of circumstances some things seem to go wrong. The saying goes: "Always leave something obviously wrong for the inspector to easily find, because he won't leave until he does."Sad indeed...fv
*In one of the larger counties I work in, the inspectors will not make an appointment with you on site. This is official policy. They will be there "some time between 9 and 4". I find this infuriating. Comments?John
*In one of the larger counties I work in(Summit Co., Ohio)These jokers don't even show up between 9 and 4, in fact they have'nt shown up for 7 days for final inspections, after repeated calls. This must have been there standard procedure of dealing with customers when they were contractors, thus they have been demoted to inspectors. "OFF WITH THERE HEADS"
*Welcome to the site Jack. I hope you stay awhile. And thanks for sticking your neck out and offering it up to us to chop off.unwashed, but beercanless,blue
*It looks like you have it bad up there in Ohio. Here, they can only show up once a week; at least in the 3 county area I work, they have different days.One of the major problems I have with new and classroom trained inspectors, is their blindness beyond the codes. They don't seem to recognize work that is intended to be a substantial improvement on the codes, regardless of whether you communicate your intends before or after. You explain, they blank out or they move on a tangent with unrelated questions, and they get all ruffled-up when you ask them to get back on track. It can get so bad that somewhere in the back of your mind, you start thinking really bad thoughts... Jack, you belong to a class of inspectors that is endangered. We hardly ever seemed to have communication problems with the old school and there were very few idiots. The construction madness of the last 25 years has forced counties into corners, and has layed the path to a crop of undereducated,undertrained (or still in the training process) inspectors with oftentimes poor communication skills. If in order to be fit for lisencing, we as builders must show years of documented experience, I would expect that my inspector would have had a proportional amount of experience as a licensed contractor before becoming an inspector. Nothing less than that is pointless. I don't buy the bit about the old school bringing their bad habits into the inspection world, rather I see well trained, well experienced men and women with their individual human personality traits.fv
*The city fired our inspector a couple months ago and we just got another one. Last night there was a little interview in the paper with the new guy and he said he came from Norridge, IL, where he was known as the "Norridge Nazi". Is this a good sign?
*You said volumes right there. One got fired(must have been a screw ball) and the other one left his last job to get this one(was he fired or run out of his last job) We should call them the "new job hoppers" or PERISHABLE VEGETABLES
*Jack-Good to hear from the other side of the fence. You're absolutely correct, inspectors are people, too. By and large, I've had positive experiences with the inspectors I've dealt with over the years. They've been generally a professional group of people who have been receptive and quite willing to help me get through my process with a minimum of difficulty. I'm with Chris. I've found that if you are proactive and set the tone as being one of cooperation and mutual respect instead of being adversarial you tend to have a much better relationship and your projects will run smoother. I try to educate the inspectors to my approach if there are questions and do my best to remain open to suggestions coming in the other direction. It's self serving to some degree, sure, but we're all supposed to be after the same thing, right? Everyone benefits from making sure things are done in a manner that meets, if not exceeds, the code requirements.Mike
*Jack, Welcome. It's funny, when I first started in this game, god did I argue and hate inspectors. Those jerks were always picking on my work and found more stuff wrong then I ever could have figured. I know those jerks had it in for me. As I've gotten older and more experianced, they have all gotten nicer and smarter. The wierd thing is that now they let me do stuff that strickly speaking isn't in the UBC or code! I look forward to them spending time on my sites and wish they could spend a little more. They show me ways that I can do things better faster and easier and let me know about stuff that's real crapp. I wonder why we feel that way about our parents and inspectors........
*Keith,We're talkin' the same county! 10-15 yrs. ago it was a pleasure to deal with Summit Co.John
*Frenchy,Around here it depends on the jurisdiction. Most depts. are quite cooperative, but the one where I happen to do a lot of work has gone strictly downhill. It's got nothing to do with attitude on my part. Their refusal to make an appointment on a job where something needs to be ironed out is terrible. And Keith is right. You need to call back to make sure they have you scheduled. Their no-show rate is way too high. The standard exuse? "It wasn't called in." b Bogus!John
*Jack,I have a great relationship with all the inspectors I deal with. I assume most, if not all of them are "drones", a derogatory term for a government employee. I therefore learn their job and do it better than them by building to or exceeding all applicable standards and codes. I do not attempt to butter them up in order to ensure their leniency. I believe all standards and codes should be applied fairly and accurately to all participants in the construction trades. I hope this is what you do.I cannot see anyone choosing the occupation of building inspector unless they are looking for an easier way out, or because they are looking to wield the power that is inherent to the job. Anyone who has the knowledge and experience required to build and the skill to perform the tasks involve will make much more than a building inspector. I'm curious, why did you make the transition from tradesman to building inspector? Its kind of like in my hockey leagues, why do certain guys make the transition into refereeing? No one that excels at them game would chose to stand by and only enforce the rules. This is the essence of the conflict between building inspector and contractor. You comment/tip about how you prejudge your builders based on what they drive is what worries me. A dirty truck is nothing but a cliche. I drive both. The only thing you need to look at on the job is the job. Let me ask you this. If you make an oversite on an inspection or permit approval, that results in a failure or violation of local codes or zoning, do you take personal responsibility for your mistake?I welcome you to the board, your input may be valuable to some but I already know where you stand. Convince me otherwise.Tom
*Well everyone, thanks for the mainly warm welcome. I can't answer all the questions, as every region or town has different rules, but I can tell you how we do things.1) We don't take requests for future inspections while we are in the field. We have no way of knowing what our booking clerk has set up for our next day out. We don't want to be in the position of getting double booked. 2) I don't give out a specific time that I will show up at anyones job site. It is not possible to look ahead and see how your day is going to go. (you have to remember that yours is not the only project that is underway) An inspection that you think should take say a half hour turns out to to take twice that long and all of a sudden your whole day turns to crap. I will try and let the builders know if I will be around in the morning or afternoon but that is as far as I want to go. From my experiance the guys get more upset if you are late rather than not knowing exactly when you will be there.3) Inspectors that don't show up at all. This was my pet peeve when I still worked in the industry. In our case we do everything possible to make sure that every inspection is carried out the day it is requested for. If we can't make it we contact the builder and let him know when we will be able to make it. We have it written into our building bylaw that ALL inspections must be carried out within 24 hours of being requested.4) Qualifications of inspectors. I don't know how it is done elsewhere, but up here in British Columbia The Cities and Regional Districts (what many of you would call counties) DON'T have to hire qualified inspectors. Most do however, for liability reasons, but I know of a few towns and cities that have some real sweat hearts for inspectors. (Yes I am certified, and I put in my 2 year probation!)
*Tommy BI saw your question after I posted my last message. I became An Inspecter after I broke my back. Do you want to know more?
*It's funny, I had the same uneasy reaction about the truck thing. I have to drive over two snowy passes to get to my job sites. My trucks get covered with muddy slush, am I supposed to drive an extra 25 miles to get them to a car wash? Let's get serious here. This reminds me of the navy inspectors that breathed down my neck in the '70's, who seemed to be just as concerned about my looks as they were about their darned submarine controllers... Talk about SOBs!I'm just glad there's guys who are having good rapports with their inspectors, that's the way it should be. I think the problems are at the higher echelons where politics take precedence over the rest. Some counties have it together, some crawl with corruption.fv
*That's very unfortunate Jack. I wish you a full recovery. I would like to hear more about you job and your injury at your convenience. Please respond to the points in my previouse post.
*I'm sorry about your accident Jack. We don't like to see one of our guys get hurt. In a related story, and I hope it's not the case here, one of my previous inspectors (now fired) became so bitter after having broken his back because of another worker's fault, that he made a point of conducting vicious inspections in relentless pursuit of revenge. Let me put it plainly here, it was absolute hell.fv
*Tommy,You had 2 direct questions. The first about why anyone would want to be a inspector, and I think I answered that for you. The second was about owning up to mistakes, and in particular ones that ended up with the builder committing zoning violations. In our area all proposed projects are reviewed by the planning department before we even do a plan check on the design . If the builder sticks to the design there are no problems. I do not have the opportunity to make that kind of mistake.As for the dirty truck thing if you reread the post you will see that I said “had never been washed” not that it is not currently clean. Maybe it was a poor choice of words on my part as my intent was show that the builders who don’t care for their equipment seldom give a damn about their work. I really don’t care what kind of shape your ride is in.Now if you are just trying to draw me out and have a good old fashioned argument or flame war you can think again. I don’t play that game during the day at work and I sure as hell am not going to play it here in the evening. If you have a direct question for me I will TRY and answer it. Most of the people posting on this board have a lot to give in the way of knowledge and, to tell you the truth that is why I am here, to see what I can pick up about construction techniques and methods. Francis,I hate to tell you this, actually it is kind of funny in a twisted way, but I was pushed off of a scaffold by a young carpenter who was not afraid of heights until we got him 20 feet up. And no, I don’t hold it against him, or anyone else for that matter, as I am the one who sent him up in the first place.
*I find it funny that when you make a Dr. appointment(one of many in a Dr.s day) he can get to you within a reasonable time right. Yes you may have to wait, but ALL DAY? I think not. Does he see all different types of problems , yes, does he know how long they all will take? No. Also I would venture a guess that all the GC's here , who are responsible for the completion of the project have cell phones. Why the F*ck can't they (inspectors)call to say when they will be there or not? To busy driving right? Safety issue? Gimme a break. Those who can't do teach, those who can't teach, inspect.
*Thanks for the clarification about the truck thing. Welcome aboard Jack! I don't personally think anyone in particular is trying to draw you in and torch you, things get a bit heated perhaps, for it isn't always fun out there as you can see, and there is ongoing resentment among some of us in regard to some bad experiences. In your case, I can only call your presence here commendable, and your input extremely valuable. I do not have present communication issues with inspectors and they show up on time to the minute. They are nice people, but one in particular needs grooming, she's new and definitely inexperienced as far as some aspects of constrution are concerned, and that can be incredibly frustrating. She tries though, and she is even putting herself through electrical training in order to be able to deal with me, since I made her feel she was inadequate. Since then my respect for her went way up and I told her so, and now we have a good professional rapport.fv
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I found this forum about three weeks ago and have been following the various discussions with a fair bit of interest. On a number of threads, the issue of building inspection has raised a fair number of comments, both pro and (mainly) con. One of the threads in particular had a poster who commented that he had never seen a Inspector reply to any topics that had been brought up. Maybe it is time to change that.
Here is some background to begin with. I am a Government Building Inspector working in British Columbia. I have been an inspector for 8 years and prior to that I worked the tools for 16 years.
Here are a few facts that I will throw out to begin with:
1) Inspectors are human. What I mean by that is that you will find the whole spectrum of personality types when you deal with them. You will find the Hard Ass as often as you find the Pushover. You will find inspectors who are very good at their jobs and you will find idiots. Personality traits of the builders enter into this as well, and you may find a fellow you can get along with but the contractor down the street can not stand. Some inspectors do very well with homeowner builders and others shudder at the thought of holding someones hand through a major project.
2) Inspectors dont make the rules. You have to remember that every item that is found in a building code has been placed there as a result of something happening. Inspectors, by law, dont have the power to vary the code. Most codes however have provisions for equivalencies, but it is the builders responsibility to prove the method or material to the inspector BEFORE IT IS INSTALLED! (And no, just because someone else did it, God knows where, it doesnt mean that you can.) If you dont understand why something is being called ask the inspector. If he or she cant answer your question, or find someone who can, they should be doing something else for employment.
3) When dealing with an inspector pretend you are talking to a mirror. If you shoot off your mouth at your first meeting I can guaranty that your future association will each other will be less than wonderful. I have seen a few people here advocating going over an inspectors head by going to the chief . This should only be a measure of last resort, and only if you are 100% sure the guy is of the brain dead type. A chief will almost always side with his inspector, right or wrong.
4) Building codes do not address fit and finish aspects of a building. The building codes only provide for a minimum level of structural adequacy, energy conservation, and occupant safety. For example I have never seen a code that stated that interior gypsum board had to be painted, or that any interior doors, other than at one bathroom, are required in a single family dwelling. Proper lap joints at vinyl siding are there to shed rain not to prevent the sheathing paper from showing through. I for one would never buy a house that was built to only meet the minimum code requirements.
5) Finally, remember that not everyone who the inspector deals with builds to the same high standards that you do. The inspector gets to see some of the most unbelievable sights ever seen in the construction world. Never, and I repeat never, underestimate the power of human stupidity. Some builders just dont know any better and worse some just dont care.