Almost every fire we go to has its roots somewhere in construction trades. This morning’s appears to have been caused by a metal staple biting into Romex. Whether this was caused by the electrician, or by subsequent stress on the wire is unclear. This fire was in a crawl space and the smoke coming from the vents was noticed almost immediately, so it was knocked down quickly with only a little charring of a couple of joists. If it had happened in the middle of the night, a very nice man would have lost his specialty hardware business.
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Had a fire from the same thing a few blocks away last week. Was caught quickly by a neighbor.
hijack: Are you one of those firemen that does construction on your days off?
An inch too short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
No, I'm one of those contractors that drops everything in the middle of the day, or gets out of bed in the middle of the night, when my pager goes off. Technically I am a volunteer but I get $8 per drill attended, and $16 per incident attended. My 'take' in 2005 was about $375, plus a bonus of maybe $80 from the firefighter's association.
There ya' go, your suspicions laid to rest.
I heard a good fire story today.
I was in a custom home plan(seems oxy-moronic), and a laborer was telling me how they were just rebuilding a home that had been a fire. I asked the cause, and he said the framer burned it down. Turns out the builder never paid the framer. The framer told the builder that if he didn't pay by certain date he would torch the house. The builder didn't pay, and the framer torched the house. The framer was arrested right away.
I'd guess the house was 5,000-6,000 sf.
I did like this, I did it like that, I did it with a wiffleball bat.
David,
Do you have a link to a newspaper story on the fire? I'm always looking for stories like this, for trade teaching I do.
A few thoughts--
Single-phase electrical isn't rocket science, but your post certainly makes the point that even a small error (like a badly stapled cable) can lead to disaster, even some time after installation. The fact that the wiring job works when it's done is no confirmation that it is safe.
Running wiring in metallic conduit has it's advantages! And I don't mean just the ease of changes in wire routing, or replacement of the conductors.
There is a requirement for new construction that all wiring be run in rigid metallic conduit (i.e., EMT or better) in Cook County, Illinios (Chicago, for the geographically impaired). Some people say the requirement exists because of strong trade unions (it takes a lot more skill to run pipe than romex); others say it's a response to the Great Chicago Fire. Probably a bit of both.
The NEC has over the years been changed to allow non-metallic cable in certain commercial buildings, depending on their height, use, and fire rating of the class of construction. Many jurisdictions still require metallic raceway wiring methods for virtually all commercial buildings, because metal conduit or metal-clad cable (and metal boxes) make for a more fire-safe wiring system. In a shop or office, there are more people present than in a single-family home, so the life-safety risk from fire is greater. Also the impact on tax revenues from loss of a commercial building is greater than that of a residential one.
The NEC requires metal conduit for buildings that contain "places of assembly" (I think that's defined as 100 or more people in a room), for fire safety reasons.
Cliff
Edited 3/8/2006 6:40 pm ET by CAP
This makes me think about buying the special electrical staples with the plastic 'bridge' instead of the metal ones.
That's all I have ever bought since they came out.
Geekbox hero who had a lot of fun in the glass city.
David,
I'm a fan of the Powerfast insulated staple (Desa, the mfgr, calls it a strap).
Those plastic hammer-driven staples (two little nails w/a plastic bridge) probably are safer than a standard steel staple. Maybe a middle ground is the King products steel staple with a plastic coating on the part that contacts the cable.
So about your work as a vol FF--are you a hoseman or a truckie, or is your dept not so specialized? Which is your favorite thing--rescue/ventilation/ladder work, or getting a good lead going with a 2-and-a half?
I worked as an ambulance driver and attendant as a college job. Just pre-paramedics. As a private service, we backed up several municipal FD ambulance services, including LAFD. Plenty of excitement. The experience has come in handy a few times since.
Cliff
We're not specialized. My role depends on whether I beat the other guys onto the engines, and what's going on at the scene. We have chronic shortages of manpower and I usually do attack, water supply, ladder, vent, etc... the front line stuff. I haven't made the move to pump operator, but I may if we lose anyone from that end.
When I alluded to construction issues, the fires I have seen in the past couple of years generally involve either electrical or mechanical, not necessarily poor work or anything like that, but situations where building systems are compromised and a fire starts. A couple of recent incidents: an unprotected woodstove vent pipe in the attic with stuff piled against it; a woodstove vent with no spark arrestor allowing embers to fall on a cedar roof; a water heater with (I believe) inadequate combustion air causing flame rollout from the burner to a mop leaning against the wall; an electrical overload of very old wiring; a roof fire caused by a crew doing torch-down. We've had a few possible arsons also, and the usual chimney fires, vehicle fires, etc. Plenty of false alarms too.
Anyway, when I build now I give a lot of thought to how fire starts, how stuff burns, and how flame spreads. It was mostly semi-abstract building code before, but it got a lot more clear on the first balloon-frame fire I went to.
Where are you from Dave, and how come you get paid to be a volunteer?:) Here in NE PA I can't even get the tax break they been promising us for years. But seriously, I've been running for six years, two as a line officer. This year I got elected President and I would really like to know how this is structured and paid for. It sounds like a great incentive. Anything beats nothing. If its too lengthy maybe this isn't the place but if you click on my profile I think you can e-mail me direct. I'd really appreciate any info.
I have been a vol ff for 27 yrs now, in that time I've seen 6 total losses from the wood floor finishers.
1 early on was from the fumes from the finish going up ignited from the furnace start up. The rest have been from the sanders not removing their dust bags from the house. That stuff can spontainiously combust quite readily.
Whenever I have floors done, I make sure that I am the last one there and the bags have made it to the dumpster
first the disclaimer - I'm a paid/professional firefighter- 18 yrs on the job, with 6 yrs as a volunteer while in college - while some fires are construction related, I'm not sure if it's the majority.
At one point, we had 5-6 fires in old houses that were being "painted" - prep was being done with torches or heat guns - heat travels into the void spaces and ignites the dust - fire breaks out a few hours later
plumbers are also pretty good for similar fires - sweating pipes too close to a opening in a wall - flame/heat goes into the wall and few hours later...... the metal conduit for wiring isn't always fire safe either - had a 3 fatal fire where the point of origin was the supply from outside - weatherhead on the head failed - water got into the conductor, eventually shorted and the fire from there extended to the house and that was it.ton of other things - bottom line is check your smoke detectors and change the batteries - practice getting out of the house and have a meeting place so the jakes who show up know everyone's out
Whats your take on MC cable? thats about what everyone is using around here now on commerical & multi family?
seems to make more sense that conduit would be required on single family than commercial... commercial if anyone is inside they are awake & active... should spot a fire... in a home people are there when they aren't awake & active... I'd think few people die in commercial business type fires... yet do everyday in private homes... around here i'd bet 75% are from space heaters...
last week saw a fire that really made me sick... a guy I assume like me... had spent the last 18 months rehab'b a 8 unit apt... really nice upgrades alot of copper... nice stonework & ironwork... didn't have electric to it yet because i passed by and they had a generator running while cutting stone... passed by about 6pm... boil'n smoke out of every crack... you could see fire around the roof vents... in the 4-5 min it took the fire dept to show up... it was a total loss.. weird i made a point to pass back by that day because i wanted to see how the stonework turned out... i saw a plumbers truck there that afternoon... so I'm only guess'n but wouldn't be the first house a plumber burnt down... guess thats another plus for Pex
p
MC cable is good stuff, much faster to install than pipe and wire. Expecially since manufacturers have come up with fittings that snap into the cable and into the KO in the box. It's much more resistent to damage than romex, of course, but requires some care in installation or you're likely to create a problem (like when cutting the armor).
When I retrofit connercial building s with MC, it's a lotta fun to shoot support wires for the cable (can't use the ceiling grid wires, the concern is weight overload). Would have to suport EMT but every 10 ft instead of every 4.5.
It's amazing, there are so many ways that an accidental fire can start. I read the accounts of fires in the NFPA Journal. Remember one where some roofers were working on a church, had set up halogen floodlights, didn't shut 'em off when they left for the day. One tipped, set the shakes or whatever on fire.
Cheers,
Cliff
i renovated an old house about 20 years ago, and had all the romex nicely stapled to a joist about every 6 feet, with the run so far out under the roof that no one could step on them. about 5 years ago, the washer circuit quit working, but the ground and hot were both showing 120. i finally found a staple that had torn the sheath, torn the insulation and contacted both the hot and bare. we never did find what caused it to pull after all those years.
dave
are you a firefighter ?
in all of the fire restoration work which we do (which is a ton) I would have to say that contractor error is responsible for less than 30 % of all of the fires. probably even less than that.
it's usually homeowner error. candles, overloading of electric cords, dirty fireplace flues, overheating cooking oil.
or the best one....
the homeowner got tired of the dog rooting through the garbage can on the kitchen floor during the day, so they put the plastic garbage can on top of the electric range where the dog couldn't reach it.
but the cat could.
and the cat walked across the range top and pushed the burner buttons on with its paws en route to the trash.
poof !
carpenter in transition
Volly FF also. You nailed it. Carpy that chooses to drop most things daytime and lose sleep at night. Wouldn't trade it for the world. We also run as EMS First Responders, as the nearest EMT/Paramedic units are generally 20 min. away.
I was into the trade before being a firefighter, so it is interesting to notice how fires are related to building construction. Even so much as path of travels and ventilation goods and bads. I can appreciate a "good" hard working fire and respect it as such.
We also use the first come basis for fire calls. Manpower is a premium at many times, so of course mutual aid comes in most beneficial. We are in a town of 800, but our rural area covers 120 sq miles. Nearest aid towns are 15 and 20 mins away.
As for paid on call, I feel we are fortunate to get as much as we do. $2/hr training, $8/hr calls. Ems runs, while usually only 1 hr, make up the most of the calls we run.
Always a pleasure to chat with other FFs. I've tried other forums on the subject, just haven't been satisfied.
I get paid to do carpentry. That makes me a professional.
If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?
I find it interesting seeing first hand hoe important fireblocking/caulking is. Carpenters are always bidgin about having to put in all these "silly blocks" .
We had 1 a couple of years ago, Started in the crawlspace, traveled across the floor and up thru the holes in wall plates(where pipes had been removed) right to the attic. The owner was in the house at the time, tha alarm system never sounded till after the flames were thru the roof.
I think if blocking was done it probably would have stay in the crawl, with much less damage.
We had a real tough one about a year ago. The building was very old and crudely built. It had studs with siding on both sides and no insulation. Someone remodeled and they added a second layer of studs on the inside, insulation, and another layer of wood paneling. Fire got inside that wall at ground level and traveled right up into the rafters. We used every saw we had trying to cut in enough holes to inject foam. It took the first crews a little while to figure out that there were two wall cavities.
Just say yes to fireblocking.
Big ditto on the blocking. Anything that I can do, even not "required" to help slow the spread of fire or smoke. I even think about some houses I worked on pre FFing that I could easily go back to and add some extras.
It's also good to be a carpy on the fire squad. There are many times when I have been able to tap some building knowledge to help us out on the fire scene. One time we had to remove a patient from a room through the window. Luckily I was able to dismantle the Anderson parts easily enough to put everything back nicley. At least it was only EMS and the house wasn't burning.I get paid to do carpentry. That makes me a professional.
If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?
Another one, How come I am the only one that remembers to put a baggy on the smoke detectors when working in the house? Over half our calls are what I call falsamatics, and over half of those are from workers in the house.
(Try to remember to remove said baggy at end of the day)
I hear that. Good call. Guys around here use a red bag that's nice n easy to see. Better to remember to remove it.
Many electricians have complained about locations of detectors. All it takes is a well versed story about someone's life and property being saved.
Story: Structure fire a few weeks ago. Friday nite. Fire is in a bedroom at the other end of a ranch one story. HO had thought to close the door and use a rug to stuff under. I was on the nozzle. Her quick thinking saved the house. Fire was a futon against the wall under the window. Our SOGs don't call for a camera on the first in team. After this one, as a Captain I think I'll try to make some changes. Almost a backdraft with the rug under the door. Crack the door and 100% smoke. I could hear the fire and basically found it by the heat and shot water in that direction.I get paid to do carpentry. That makes me a professional.
If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?
Today's paper has a article on the problems of getting enough volunteers.http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/14052417.htmPlaying with fire: Units lack staff
With fewer volunteers, many departments fear out-of-control blazes
By STEVE ROCK
The Kansas City StarRICH HILL, Mo. — As Landon Swope walks through this town’s lonely fire department, the radio on his hip is silent.Good thing, too.Because if that radio goes off, indicating there’s a fire nearby, Swope isn’t sure where he’ll turn for help.“People just don’t understand,” said Swope, chief of the volunteer fire department in Rich Hill, about 80 miles south of Kansas City. “They have a fire and think, ‘I’ll just call the fire department.’ Well, there might not be a fire department. Someday, the dispatcher is going to say, ‘Sorry, there’s nobody here. Sit back and watch it burn.’“We’re not there yet, but …”He’s afraid that day might be coming.Swope’s department — like hundreds of other rural fire departments throughout Missouri and Kansas, as well as the rest of the United States — relies on a volunteer work force.And that work force is shrinking, threatening the service those fire departments can provide.
....
But in Rich Hill, this much is fact: When the department was called to a recent car accident on U.S. 71 in case a fire erupted, nobody showed up. The call came in midmorning, the worst time for most volunteer fire departments because their scattered workers are tending to their “real” jobs, perhaps one or two towns away.
.....Federal and state lawmakers, including some in Missouri, are trying to help.At least 12 states have proposed bills aimed at helping volunteer fire departments, and there are several federal initiatives under way, according to the National Volunteer Fire Council in Washington, D.C. One of them, introduced by Rep. Maurice Hinchey, a New York Democrat, would provide a $1,000 annual tax credit for active volunteer firefighters.
Nice article. Thanks. It hits home true enough! The tax break is a great thing. Unfortunately, I get taxed and use a 1099 for my department earnings. Total opposite of the breaks. Somebody in another town complained about the "loss of tax revenue" and it has bit all of us. Just doesn't seem right.
My dad's chief in another town is on the national fire board and he is working hard to make the EMS service as a whole more attractive to vounteers. OTOH, it seems there are also too many folks out there who suffer from "red light and siren" syndrome. You know, it's so cool to be on the department, but not really willing to do much work. Very prevailent in younger folks. I get paid to do carpentry. That makes me a professional.
If I work on my own house does that make me a DIY?