The plumber went crazy, now what?
OK, so I get that the valves had to be replaced and electronic push buttons are to be installed. Of course, I was told that a plastic, single-gang box would be sufficient to mount the push button; just pull the wire into the box, cement the box in place, repair the tiles as required and ready for business in a day or two.
Wrong! If anyone with an experienced eye can take a look at the attached pics and suggest a way for me to fill these voids, I would certainly think that you’re nothing less than a magician! How can I even dream of installing cement board when I don’t have anything left to fasten it to? I can’t drive in wood blocking – it’ll rot out in no time. I can’t put a piece of plywood over the opening and pour a concrete slurry mix behind it. Even if that was possible the new “wall surface” would stand proud of the surrounding block. Then, when you mounted the tiles they’d be “bumped out” away from the “wall.” A stainless steel plate might have been a consideration, but not when you’ve got such gaping holes to deal with!
I’m stumped! How in the h*ll would you fellas fix something like this?
Thanks to all for their suggestions.
Cheers!
Ken
Replies
You can fill those voids with mortar. You can even mix it so that it will stick in there and not fall out all over the floor. Pack it in flush with the surface of the block and then set tile over it. You will need to do some research as to the specific recipe to use, and deal with possible shrinkage (2 coats), but it can definitely be done.
You might just use redi-mix concrete, mixed fairly dry. Chip out a few more tiles so that you have a rectangular opening and can tack on a piece of plywood as a form (maybe use a couple of tapcon screws into intact areas of block). The most time consuming part will be injecting the mud. Makes me wonder if you could fill a shop-vac with mud and blow it in?!
Might try some concrete screws and metal lath ????
Best I can think of at the moment.
mk
There ya go. Metal lath carefully fitted into each opening and fastened with blue screws, then an inch of tile mortar floated over it, set the tile when dry.
Thanks David,
I do have some cognant moments LOL!!!!! Few as they are!!!!
MK
Don't know how to fill that, but I do hope you can match the tile!
The tile's not going to be a problem; if fact, that's the least of my worries. I'm seriously considering foaming the cavity after the electrical box is in place, but could the foam be smoothed enough to hold tile? And would tile adhere to the foam? Packing it with mortar would require an incredibly stiff mix and getting it around the pipes would be a beggar. I don't want to break out anymore mortar that's stuck in there - I'm going to crack the face of the block on the other side! Man, I'm so ticked that this turned into such a bloody mess! Sure, bash it out, leave the job, call me in to "fix it" and then b*tch and complain when the job's not done in a day or two. If evil thoughts were a criminal offense I'd be looking at death row right about now!grrr!
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
I'm voting no on the insulating foam. It's definitely not a tile substrate.
The foam might be viable but with another twist. I'd lay in some sleeper 2" x 4"s to become a permanent part of the substrate. Screw a couple 2" x's on the back of a plywood form board (cut to fit the irregular holes) and set the plywood to allow a layer of backerboard to be screwed and glued to the 2" x 4"s. I'd also use a layer of wax paper between the form plywood and the 2" x 4"s to keep the form board from adhering to the foam. After the foam has set up for a day, unscrew the form board from the 2" x 4"s and they'll be able to be used as the attachment for the backerboard. You could run a couple 2" x's from partition wall to partition wall to secure the form in place while doing the foam. Is this making any sense?
I guess it's possible, however, any kind of wood material (backer or otherwise) is a no-no. I'd love to have something to anchor the cement board and of course, the foam would certainly never cut it. Thanks for the suggestions, though. I'm going to wait and see what other suggestions the pros might have.
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
It woulod be easier for me to use dry mix mortar, as dry as you can mix it, and pack it in. blow the dust our or wash it down fiorst, then use bonding agent, then the mortar. honestly - it isn't that hard to do if you mix a no-slump mortar and pack it hard.
The foam would be a real mess to work to keep in in and not dribble and ruain all the surronding tile, but it could be carved to the edpth you wanted once cured. i'd hate having to drape/mask the whole area to foam though.
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Yeah, I'm with you, Piffin. That foam is horrible once it starts glomming onto everything. I guess if I pre-wet the block with water and a bonding agent, then use a really dry mortar mix it might hold things in place. Just how the heck do I mount, much less hold in place, an electrical box at each shower location? I can't tapcon the box to the back wall - it'd be too deep and the screws would penetrate the other side of the block - probably crack it anyway. The more I think about the madder I get. Just about anything that I do is gonna be Mickey Mouse. Grrr!
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
build up a standoff to mount the electrical box. drill through the rear of the box into the standoff...or pack it in the mortar mix if you go that route
I'll fabricate some kind of stand-off for the electrical box. It's got to be solid enough not to move around too much while I'm packing in all the mortar that Piffin suggested. Thanks for that suggestion.
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
if you do try it with wire lathe, be sure that it is not in close contact with that copper.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Here's something for future reference when dealing with foam. I worked in prosthetics in a previous life and we used a lot of foam for the shaping process. Play Dough is a great sealant to keep things contained. So in the scenario I was describing, you could play dough around the form board and keep the foam where it belongs. Additionally, using a spray cooking oil like Pam would protect the surrounding areas from having foam stick to it.
But for all intents and purposes, it sounds like the general consensus is going to be mortaring the holes full and trying to build it out flat enough to re-tile the areas. As for how to attach the electrical boxes, you could work up a jig to hold it into place then pack in enough mortar around the box to set it securely then come back the next day to float out the wall.
If it were me, I'd start out by chipping the tile out to the grout lines getting it totally prepped for the replacement tile before doing any interior filling. By doing so, you can use plywood to form the hole up to within a few inches of the top where you'd be pouring from. Use tapcons to hold the plywood in place on the plane of the concrete block. Mix up enough concrete mix to come to the top of the plywood and let set overnight. An additional advantage to this would be you could through bolt the electrical box to the plywood (nut would be behind the box in the wall cavity) to hold it in place during the pour. The next day you could tuck in enough mortar to finish the job. You're obviously going to find out how many ways this cat can be skinned on this thread. Have fun;)
Much thanks, Homewright. It's definitely going to be a "learn as you go" experience. Holding the box in place as you suggested would probably be the ticket. The challenge in filling the void from the top is to make sure that the finished surface is flush with the block, not the tile, as it would then make the tiles stand "proud" of the existing tiles, as I mentioned at the beginning. It would be great if I could square it out and find a way to install to cement board, but in some of the stalls we're getting perilously close to the privacy screens. Thanks for your suggestions.
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
Couldn't you use an electrical box that mounts to the mortar wall, like one from a race way setup> Run the wire out of the wall in a small pc. of conduit into the box an mount the switch. Just pack her with mortar, tapcon on the box w/ some silicone, and tile it up.
How about doing something akin to bricking up the opening? Perhaps cut up some masonry and stack successsive layers at the appropriate setback the same way one would fill in a window opening w/brick. I personally think polyurethane foam w/ a skim coat of thinset would suffice also.
Forget the foam idea. That stuff will cause you TONS of trouble. It has some uses.................but it is used too often where it shouldn't be. JMO
Mike L.
As a one time pipefitter: It is possible that someday someone will need access to those pipes. If you brick or cement the whole up solid, whoever it is is going to muttering even stronger profanities than you are at present regarding this...
I've been reading this and I definitely agree that future access must be considered. I would not use anything like cement to fill in the hole. I dont have any real good ideas, but the backer board attached somehow is the best idea.
CaseyR & MarkH: I couldn't agree with you more about maintaining access to the pipes and wires. The plumber was looking at our repairs yesterday and breathed a sigh of relief that we weren't burying the repair in concrete. He's the guy who's been replacing the rotten copper throughout the facility and he knows that it's just a matter of time before something bursts in these shower walls. Of course, your thoughts and comments are from fellas that are thinking about the next guy - not something I find a lot of today. Anyway, the savings in water alone with the use of the solenoids and push buttons should be substantial over the coming years - more than enough to offset the occasional repair to a failed copper line. Now, if we could find a way to make the water softer without going through hundreds of pounds of salt per day, that would suit me fine. Such is the life, I guess.
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
I would get some threaded rods (about three for each patch ) Drill holes in the concrete block to receive the rods.
Thread a nut and washer on each rod so all the nuts will be the same distance from the finish face of the tile when the rods are fully inserted in their holes.
Cut the rods off about an inch in front of the washers.
Epoxy the rods into the holes and let set up.
Cut a piece of backerboard to fit the cavity and drill it so it will slide in on the rods.
Put a nut and washer on each rod and tighten so this board is dead verticle and about 3/4 inch behind the finish face of the tile.
Now cut another piece of backer board to fit the cavity and using thinset and spacers screw this board to the first board.
If you plan this right the final board should be just right to receive the thinset and the replacement tile.
This sounds a little complicated but it's really a simple mechanical fix that eliminates packing the cavity with cement or some kind of gunk and will be rot proof.
I drew a little scetch of this but for the life of me I can't figure out how to get it from my HP scanner into this message.
I like arrowshooters's idea, or a version of it.
With allthread and a long coupler nut a piece of 1/2" hardibacker could be held at the correct depth to tile directly on. Attach the hardi to the long nuts with 1" threaded bolts with an angled head so when countersunk it's flush. Remove a row of tiles from around the opening and tape the gaps with thinset. The 1/2" hardi will hold the electrical box.
Don
Here is the scetch.
Huh? what ya mean I can't use carpenter in a can to patch my potholes on my street?
I'm not sure if my description was clear so here goes another try. The gap at the top is for access to pour concrete into. The plywood would be mounted directly on the surface of the block, not the tile. Since you'd be cleaning the remains of the broken tile off that area anyway, it gives a surface onto which your plywood could be screwed to. Doing that first before trying to fill in the holes would give you the means to pour a formed job with minimal followup work to prep for tile.
You could do the plywood forms in two parts where the bottom section would run to within say 3 or 4 inches from the top then make a second piece to entirely cover the hole. After pouring to the top of the first form, you could pack the concrete into the hole until it almost sloughs out, pack the backside of the form board with as much mix as it can handle, then pivot it in place while someone else drives in the tapcons to hold it together. Tap the forms a bit to knock the air out and come back tomorrow. Hopefully this makes a little more sense. It's kind of a fun challenge (to me) considering how many ways you could do this. Good luck...
I've got your meaning, Homewright. Remove enough tiles to expose enough block to mount the plywood and fill 'er up with concrete. I'd probably force quick set into the remaining gap after the form is removed the next day. I think I'll take a pic or two of the job and post it here to show the final project - God knows that there's another plumber out there scheming to do something like this again!
Cheers!
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
If you want to pack it with cement just use the least amount of water as possible. Did a job with a tile guy and he had the pre mix company deliver an 11 sack sand mix with just enough moisture that you could make a firm ball with your hand. As you know the least amount of water leads to the strongest cement.
What were they using an 11-sack mix for?
I would guess for a mud pan. ---------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
Yeah, but delivered by a redi-mix truck? Maybe they were doing the gang showers at the Y or something like that.
delivered by a redi-mix truck?
I missed that the first time around. Getting it down the chute would have been a job in itself.---------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
It was for a tile floor covered but outdoors,2 nd floor. Dumped it into apple bins 4 ft sq. about 30 inches high. and lifted the bins up with a forklift.
Almost finished. Thanks for all the suggestions. Going to grout the joints tomorrow and open 'er up to the public on Tuesday. Attached a few pics to show the method used. The void that was foamed is rock solid and access to pipes, etc. is still possible - just carve away enough foam to get to the pipes. Worked like a charm. Saved the customer heaps of time and $$ and that should put a smile on their faces. Now, if I can just convince them to stop using a pressure washer for their nightly cleaning, the grout will stay in place and water won't get behind the tiles, like it has been for years. However, that's what maintenance is all about right? Thanks again, fellas. Merry Christmas!
Cheers!
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
i would cut cement backer board into small rectangles, laminate enough together to build up enough height, and then bond to the block wall that is next to the pool. I would make sure the standoffs are bonded strongly by adding some weight to the standoff while it cures. Once you have enough standoffs in place to support the backer board I would bond that to the standoffs. You would even be able to cut the backer to fit the irregular opening.
You could also play with some different shapes on the the first layer of the lamination to increase its bonding area the the adjacent wall
You could also use the laminated standoff to mount the sinfle gang box to. using the appropriate fastener, drive a screw through the rear of the box into the standoff and bond it to the cement block
Force fit an oversized cut of wirelathe into each opening. Scratch coat then build out with succesive coats ttill flat and fluch with existing wall.
Done
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It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
How much tile do you have? I might consider covering the enitre wall with 1/4 hardibacker tapconned/glued to the wall. Start fresh for that stall.
Edit: Well nevermind, hard to tell by looking, but I guess it's not a separate stall.
---------------------
Swimming through the ashes of another life, no real reason to accept the way things have changed. Wrapped in guilt, sealed up tight.
Edited 12/14/2005 2:57 pm ET by dustinf
Dustinf might be on to something. Instead of trying to make it match, make it a decorative piece. Cement or glue some blocking inside the cavity. Either add backer board or metal lath & scratch coat. Then over that add a contrasting decorative element, border, whatever. If it's proud a 1/4", it'll look like it was meant to be that way.
I'm sure that each stall is different, so it won't totally look like it was planned, but, most people only look in one stall at a time, and have poor memories. Or make a different element in each stall. A good way to use up the different types of extra tile you have laying around.Pete Duffy, Handyman
It looks like there is enough room in those holes to bend some metal channel or stud material.
Place one piece at a depth to be the standoff to screw the back of single gang box to and a couple of other pieces at a depth to screw the backerboard to so it would be flush or close to flush with the block. Perfect is not necessary.
Place a bend in the end of each piece of channel so it friction fits the sides or top and bottom of the cavity.
Use no screws
Mix up some quick setting high strength cement or hydraulic cement and pack it around the bent ends of the channel. When this sets up in a few minutes you won't be able to move the metal. Don't forget to clean the cavity first and use a bonding agent.
Attach the electrical box with self tapping screws, pull the wire thru. Done.
Cut a piece of backer to fit the outline of the cavity. Screw that to the other standoffs. Done.
Since you have already cleaned up the existing tile, you can now butter the backs of the new tile and tap them into place. Vary the amount of butter to make the tiles flush. Done.
Grout.
No forms, no battens, no need to fill the cavities. One bag each of thinset and high strength.
I think the key is to keep it simple, RalphWicklund, as you've suggested. Anchoring steel studs shouldn't be too difficult. The moisture and eventually rusting of the studs is a small concern, but I'll probably be retired by that time. You should see the metal conduit that's buried in the wall along with these copper pipes - there's absolutely nothing left of it. Totally rusted and crumbled away exposing the wires inside it. And the copper elbows had pin holes and broke as easy as a dried out turkey wishbone. And this is only 12 years old! A perfect place for WIRSBO if there ever was one. I guess that's why I was favoring the foam or solid cement - it would probably be impervious to moisture-related problems.
Nevertheless, I'm going to try the studs this morning. Thanks again to everyone.
Cheers!
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
This one is simple, vac out and square up, get a bricklayer, use 1-1/2 paver blocks and fit and mortar in. Pavers come 8 x16x 1-1/2, so they can be easily shaped to fit an irregular opening and around your box, plus they are flat so you can tile right over.
I had to do a double-take to asee this. I thought he was showing a concrete wall, not the CMU blocks laid up and broken off.You are right. That is the simpole solutuion
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Insert short pieces of metal stud vertically in the cavities of the 2x material. Then, install the backer?
?
Maybe? Hopefully?
a.
I had a similar situation but on a slightly smaller scale and I ended up using hydraulic cement to fill the void. It sets really, really fast so you need to work fast but it as it quickly cures it will expand to grip the sides of hole. As it hardens you can smooth the face for a smooth tile substrate
I liked this approach because unlike regular cement the hydraulic will expand with lots of PSI against the all sides to give it a good grip within the void. I feel over time regular cement could fail because there's little holding it in. Also. regular cement might develop cracking between the fill and existing wall which could allow water to get behind it and degrade the patch over time. With such a big void you may be able fill the back of the void with some fill, maybe some chucks of cement to give you less space to fill with the hydraulic. As I said hydraulic cures very fast, so move fast.
Good Luck!!!
No shortage of interesting ideas here.
I'd lean away from anything that permanently enclosed either the pipes or the electrics (but that may be bitter remodel/repair experience).
I'd be real inclined to make a box of cementitious board or backer board that best fit each of the openings. There'd be an 'internal' rib of board that properly anchored & located the new J-Box going in. (This box would be perpendicular to the tile, open in a horizontal orientation.)
Over that box would go the underlayment fitted to the wall (and I'd likely trim to the grout lines rather than try to fit around all those busted tiles). I might be real inclined to used screws to put the backer on the box, too. Sure, you'd have to bust the tiles & thinset to get at them, but better that than ripping another ragged hole in the wall.
Well, well. A ton of messages and suggestions from everyone again today. Many thanks - what a great resource this forum is!
Spent the day on the job so I'm catching up on things now. We came up with an idea today that worked pretty well. I'm going to take a few pics tomorrow, but the gist of it is that we traced the "extremely rough" openings using 2 mil poly and a marker pen. Cut out the shape marked on the poly, overlaid it on Denshield, cut out and installed the plastic electrical box, screwed several strips of plywood over the outside face of the Denshield, fitted the board into place and anchored the strips to the cleaned off block with tapcons. Then we injected each cavity with foam, let it ooze out around the Denshield (we draped the wall and floor below with poly to catch the goop)and we're letting it dry overnite. If all goes according to plan we should have a solid substrate ready for tile in a day or two. Yippee! Thanks again and pics to follow real soon.
Cheers!
Ken"They don't build 'em like they used to" And as my Dad always added... "Thank God!"
Put some metal studs flat side out so they just fit behind the good tile and foam behind it. Then screw your board to the metal stud
Edited 12/15/2005 8:05 pm ET by 8quarter
Off topic question, where in Ontariop are you? I'm in the great white north tonight with snow blowing like crazy north of Sudbury.
Cliffy
Ken: Had a similar problem w/ my ICF's - terrible voids. Here's what I did: Cleaned out all the rubble; made clean, sound margins on the old concrete. I'd clean off an extra tile all the way round the perimeter of the gaping maw of a hole you have. Lay up a slab of plywood over the opening, flush w/ current surface of blocks. Mount electrical box on inside face of plywood; install necessary conduit (whatever) for electrical wires. Leave a small hole at top of plywood. Get grout material from Quickkrete (or whoever) mix appropriate slurry & quickly pour into void through hole. Continually tap ply to get air out. Grout sets up in about 45 min. Also, expands as it cures to insure tight fit w/ existing wall. If you want to save on volume of grout used, use foam to fill some of space in rear of cavity, ensuring that the grout thickness at new face is thick enough to support tile. You can even reinforce grout w/ a piece of expanded metal mesh placed an inch or so behing new wall face.
If you are so disposed, only place plywood about three quarters of the way up opening so you can have lots of space to work initial grout down into void, then quickly install top section w/ small hole to fill remaining void.
It works! Good luck. & Merry Christmas.
Don
The Glass Masterworks
"If it scratches, I etch it!"
GWNG,
I dunno 'bout the plumber going crazy, sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do.
Now it's time for the tile setter to clean off all the broken and chiped tiles.
After all the "siesmic events" of removing the tile, fit cement backer board to a rough fit and butter it in place, making sure that it is behind the plane of the block 0"-1/8". Attach your box to the backer board before or after it's set.
The tile setter can grout the tile to plane with that clearance and by setting the backer board behind plane, you insure that it's not in the way of tile.
I would not backfill the voids with 'crete as it just isn't a big enough compromise to the structural strength of the building to worry about. Insulation, maybe, but not 'crete.
I personally, would set the PB boxes after the backer board was set because it makes it possible to put them all on the same elevation and have the same horizontal offset from some reference. Alternatively, if you get the tile setter to set the switch boxes, he can set them so the he only has to cut one tile for each box.
I'ld get the tile setter to do it. He already has the right mindset, the right muscle memories, all the tools and he will do it the best way for his tile. It'll take him 1/2 man day or less
SamT