Way back, many moons ago (during my carpentry apprenticeship), I had the pleasure of working with an old-time finish carpenter. He related a story to me about a mutual acquaintance of ours who was an even older old-time craftsman. As we discussed the old man’s grasp of the framing square, I was told that our mutual acquaintance used the tool for figuring his income taxes! The gentleman I spoke with swore that it was a true story. Has anyone ever heard of this? I hadn’t heard of it before that, nor since.
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Did he claim to be framed when the IRS arrested him for falsifying his taxes?
:-)
Maybe this should have been posted in the "newby hazing stories" thread ?
;o)
Yadda yadda yadda
I'm pretty sure U can add, subtract, multiply and divide with a framing square ...
I used to know a bit of it ... forgot all that since trade school.
one of these days I'll try to reteach myself ... probably more fun than reading an old novel? Might take some time off this winter ... maybe I'll give it a shot then.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yes, you can do those things. That's one function of the 10th scale. You can also use the 12ths scale to do scale drawings in feet and inches. The brace scale was used to figure the hypotenuse of timber frame braces, and I don't have a clue what the little dots are for. I think the Essex board scale is used to cipher board feet, but couldn't say just how.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
Yea but they don't have any diamonds!
Tape measures rule!
Ohhh tipi tipi tipi. Tipi tipi fest, Yes we're gonna party with the very best. Come over to the tipi. Give Andy all your dough. Cause you gotta to pay. If you want to go. Sing along Y'all.
Tipi fest 06. Get hip.
I had to learn all that ... at least the basics of all the tables ... in trade school.
Had a great instructor that taught us how to do pretty much everything a construction calculator would do ... 'cept only by using a scientific calculator first ....
and explained the basics by making is use the framing sq first.
I still have never stepped up to a construction master but I've forgotten pretty much everything with the steel square.
Wish I kept up on it.
Was one of those things that were just cool to know ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
The dots are the "octagon scale". It is used for converting a square to an octagon.
The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits. -Albert Einstein
http://www.peteforgovernor.com
Ahh, thanks.
I've also been told that holding the square over your head deflects cosmic rays much like alumuinum foil.Andy
"Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Robert A. Heinlein
"Get off your dead #### and on your dying feet." Mom
I tried using mine to do my taxes, but it wouldn't let me cut any corners.
OuchMaybe someday I'll know a little something.
I still have the framing square that my grandfather bought in 1907. I doubt that he used it for income taxes, at least not at first. Mainly because the income tax wasn't created until 1913. It might serve as a paperweight or straightedge, though.
-- J.S.
I thinka creative and some what intelligent person could do some solid math with TWO squares. Held in such a way that they could be slid along each other...like a homemade slide rule.
I have used two as a giant caliper and could read the diam. measured off the scale, but has been quite awhile since I did that.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" I am not an Activist, I am, a Catalyst. I lay around and do nothing, until another ingredient is added"
Most people who have never had to plan out complex building tasks using a framing square are pretty amazed at what can be accomplished with it. Frankly, I think most people who use one nowadays use it for just that--drawing a right angle or using it as a straight-edge. One of the most interesting uses of a framing square that I have witnessed is that of drawing ellipses on concrete forms where pipes pass through the forms at an angle. I couldn't give you the details of how it was done, but I find it sad that such knowledge seems to be disappearing rapidly.
The mysterious numbers on the old time framing squares are really just trig tables. Specialized trig tables for figuring the dimensions of rafters.
-- J.S.
Yeah, finish nails and a pencil in the corner -set the nails at half the width and at half the height, and drag the sq around with the pencil is my way.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" I am not an Activist, I am, a Catalyst. I lay around and do nothing, until another ingredient is added"
Uh-oh, Sphere,Yer past is coming back ta haunt ya!You got away with it for a few years, but you had to know someday there’d be that knock on the door...“Yeah, finish nails and a pencil in the corner -set the nails at half the width and at half the height, and drag the sq around with the pencil is my way.”You must have one of those skinny, floppy squares...known as a loop of string!!With two nails a rafter square, you can draw a CIRCLE up to about 19 3/4” dia. (the diagonal of the inside measurement of the tongue) with 4 flips of the square, as you describe -- or only two flips if your circle is 14” or less in dia.This Internet stuff is dangerous! Next thing you know, somebody’ll be circulating that old YouTube video from ’75 of you dancing in your thong, leaping from table to table!I’m gonna dig out that old coal-fired cam of mine and see if I still have that clip.AitchKay
Nope, its only a circle if both nails are equidistant from the center, a nail 4'' and a nail at 6" makes a 1/4 of an oval that would have an 8x12 dimension wide and tall.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
??Well, there is a way, but you’re a little short of gear so far, aren’t you? You’d also need a sort of trammel arm, with the square held stationary on the x and y axes, and the nails and pencil in the arm. Is that what you meant?You can’t do it with just a square, two nails, and a pencil, can you?I think a square, two nails, and a pencil only get's you a circle.Aitchkay
LOL..damm yeah, yer right. I forgot all about the STICK! Been so long since I needed to lay out an oval. I lofted the roof plane ovoid I made for those vents for SeeYou, but now ya got me thinking, I coulda made a half oval.
You win, I was cornfuzzed. Chist, these guys digging up old threads..(G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
This Internet stuff is brutal, eh? No Statute of Limitations, and No Mercy! Three years later, and it comes back to haunt you!At first, I just thought you were actually thinking of that circle trick. About 10 minutes later, the light went on about the ellipse construction you meant.I remember reading about the Domini (?) family workshops on Long Island (?). I think the property stayed in the family, so the workshops were somehow left untouched for 100 years or so (?).Pretty cool. They even had the ledgers (from the 1700s?) still, so you could see how productive they were (6 hrs to build a chair, or something).Anyway, I saw a picture of this cool jig, a block of wood slotted on the x/y axes to form a cross, and a trammel arm with wood-block feet that slid in the slots. Same theory that you’re talking about, but it would scribe the whole ellipse, all four quadrants, in one pass!If I were building one of those, the dados and runner-blocks would probably be slide-dovetailed together, with the leading edges of the blocks eased and pointed slightly to cross the intersection smoothly.Adjustable foci would be nice, but it would probably make more sense to just screw the runners to the arm for each different ellipse, and replace the arm once it got too chewed up. How long would it take to get to that point, after all?But now let’s talk about putting a router out there where the pencil lives!OOH! Now we’re talkin’ dirty!AitchKay
That which you just described was also made as a childs toy or executive office paperweight..called a "smoke grinder" or a "Do-nothing". I've made a few. And yes, you do us a sliding DT and no sharp corners. I TRIED one like that for a bandsaw jig, now THAT was a lesson of impossibilty.
Ever see a "Gee-Haw Whimmy-diddle"? made a few of them for kids over the yrs.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Edited 3/4/2009 7:52 am ET by Sphere
Bert, hold your pipe at whatever angle it intersects the ply.
One spot on the circumference of the pipe is touching, right? Hold the square against the side of the pipe and make a mark where the end of the square meets the ply.
Go around the pipe making as many marks as needed to outline the elipse. As long as the square is parallel to the center line of the pipe, your dots will be a perfect ellipse.
Nothing to it, may require more than 2 hands though.
Joe H
Yep, that works, for sure. The guy I spoke about in an earlier post only needed to know the angle that the pipe intersected the form and the diameter of the pipe! Wish I was that smart :-)
That guy's way smarter than Joe.
Joe H
Your story could easily be true. The square can be used for many "slide-rule" functions as mentioned.
With the back side of the square up (so it looks like a 7), if you are in the 25% tax bracket and want to determine your tax on 45K...make a mark on a board at 2.5" in the tongue and 10" on the body. Draw a line (hypotenuse of a right triangle) between the marks on the board.
Then slide the square down the board, keeping the body on the edge of the board, until the 4.5" mark reaches the mark made at the 10" point on the right triangle. Now read the length of the short leg of your new proportional smaller right triangle.
It will read 1-1/8" or 1.125" (where it meets the hypotenuse of the original triangle), 25% of 45K is then $11,250.
That sounds confusing, but it is much quicker and easier to do than explain. Many mathematical answers can be obtained faster with a framing square than with a calculator...if you know how to do it.
The process I described above is really, make two marks, draw a line, slide the square down, and whaala...read the answer. Certainly as fast as a calculator--faster if you need several answers given by the same right triangle.
Old time carpenters used this function to apply rates of productivity for crews and determine how long a task would take on a project and countless other applications.
Chapter 1 of "Workshop Math" by Robert Scharff covers common uses of the Framing Square.
Edited 7/18/2006 3:20 pm ET by basswood
Edited 7/18/2006 4:41 pm ET by basswood
I'm tellin ya, I saved $900 off my income taxes by using the dots part on my square.
I'm usin it right now to figure what lotto numbers to buy down at the Quik Mart.
I deducted the cost of my framing square and the cost of my Construction Master Calculator as business expenses...but the square cost less and I use it more--so it saved me less on taxes, but it makes me more money than the high tech toy. Dern calc-a-la-tor needs a new battery right now...so it sits idle.
so wht didn't ya get the solar powered one with the built in trig functions...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I bought it back in the Dark Ages...when it was too dark for solar power...hadn't been invented yet.I should go get a battery for it though.
I knew that when I first posted a message on this subject there would be a lot of "gigging" involved. But, then again, I did a little 20 year stint as a carpenter, so I'm used to it. However, it's knowledge such as you have passed along that seems to be disappearing. This kind of stuff really fascinates the heck out of me and I'm glad there are still a few people around to maintain the knowledge base! Thanks for the info!
I edited my post to fix an error...you slide the body of the sqaure down the edge (not the tongue), but read the number on the tongue to get the answer...clear now?I'm glad you dig some of the calculator functions of the square...I think it is a great, lost art. I'm glad you asked.
The guys I started with all could do math using the square. I'm sure they showed me but I never had a need for any of it and it all but disappeared from my brain. I'm sure I could resurrect the methods if I had a square and board in front of me.
The little lesson you give though is a good indicator of how you use the square to find answers to lots of questions i.e. mark a board, then slide the square to get an answer. I did an awful lot of that type of usage but I just never did mutiplication or division with it. I did a lot more than make square marks with my squares. Most of those "slide the square" calculations dealth with figuring the rise of some small runs...usually when I was figuring my pine lines and soffit systems.
Even though the tenth and twelfth scales were handy for some of those situations, I hated having different scales on my squares and once I found the Stanley "homeowner" square and it had all 1/8" markings, I never used my old "pro" squares again. I'd rather mentally convert the decimal equivialent rather than have differnt scales on the square. That drove me nuts when I was trying to measure things with the square.
I still have my original framing square that I bought. It isn't square anymore and it's actually in great shape considering it was bought in the 70's.
Back in the 70's and 80's, no self respecting carpenter would show up on a jobsite without a framing square. The only ones not packing a framing square were the rookies...who weren't serious about their trade. I still judge a framer by his square....
Basswood, you obviously have worked a bit with a framing square doing things other than marking a 2x4 for square! LOL!
I've never done math with the square but I understand how it's done. I've done rough estimates with it for very simple equations.
The old guys used to figure the total length of the rafter by sliding the square along the marks as you describe. On a simply gable roof (they all were back then), it works fine. If you miss the technical length by a half inch or a 1/4 inch, the roof will still work because all the rafters would be long or short.
Guys that have cut their teeth on speed squares have no idea how a framing square is used on the jobsite in literally hundreds of applications. I pull mine out every day even though I eyeball most square cuts and quite a few angeld cuts too.
blue
I'll post a few pics this weekend, since--as I said--these kinds of uses of the framing square are far easier to do (or show) than explain.There are a few of us old enough or quirky enough to be up on some of these old methods.Getting older and quirkier.
Check these out (written in 1947 & 1958) :
http://cgi.ebay.com/Steel-square-Use-of-the-scales-roof-framing-illus_W0QQitemZ4626698192QQihZ002QQcategoryZ378QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com/Framing-Guide-and-Steel-Square-Sigmon-D-L-NEW_W0QQitemZ180005476816QQihZ008QQcategoryZ378QQssPageNameZWD1VQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Thanks!
Bert & ALL
Here are a couple of photos to illustrate the tax calculation function of the Framing Square.
The first pic. is of the right triangle for the 28% tax. In the second pic the square has been slid down so that the 7.5" mark meets the bottom of the triangle. Then the tongue reads 2.1". This means the tax on 75K @ 28% is 21K.
That's good Basswood.
I use a variation of that on a regular basis when I'm framing. I'm usually calculating the drop or rise of a small section of roof.
blue
Blue,I'm glad you appreciate this odd application of the framing square. I don't know if this is what the fellow mentioned by the OP was doing, but it could be.If I think of any other interesting "secrets of the square", I'll post them.Basswood
Bass, I've always been a huge fan of the framing square. I don't really use any special tricks, but I do so many things with it on a regular basis that I know I'd be lost without it. If someone could follow me around and snap pictures as I go about my day to day business, I could probably post about fifty different "tricks" that I routinely do.
I don't see any of the other guys on my crew using their squares effectively so it's obvious that these "tricks" don't get spread by osmosis. We all have to use the tools and fool around with them to be effective.
In my world, the framing square would be one of the five basic tools that I would never think of leaving behind if I had to choose only five tools to build a house with.
blue
Right On. I saw the new thread you started--good one, I think you will get some traffic with it. I'll give it some thought myself.
Damn, that would actually work. And here I thought all along it was a joke. ;-)
-- J.S.
Yup! Close enough for Uncle? Pretty Cool Anywho.
basswood,
As I said in an earlier post, I expected a lot of fun to be had at my expense when I brought up this subject. I now feel vindicated! All kidding aside, I'm glad there are still a few real craftsmen out there like yourself that are interested in perpetuating a body of knowledge that might otherwise be lost. Thank you.
You are off the hook now...of course, I'm probably on the hook.I probably have some zingers heading my way--like, "Get a life." I mean, who knows that kind of thing? I collect strange things in my mind...but at least I'm happy. 8 > {
It's tax season...get out your framing square! ; )
Tax season...Bump. He Hee.
another bump for Spike.