I just found this interesting article. We have also seen an influx of these types of houses in Cape Town. It would be nice to hear your thoughts on them.
Website:
http://realestate.msn.com/buying/Articlenewhome.aspx?cp-documentid=418653
I just found this interesting article. We have also seen an influx of these types of houses in Cape Town. It would be nice to hear your thoughts on them.
Website:
http://realestate.msn.com/buying/Articlenewhome.aspx?cp-documentid=418653
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More more more bigger bigger bigger gimmee gimmee gimmee me me me meeee money money who cares spend spend more more way beyond any means bigger gimme better faaaat city fat fat fat we've arrived!!!!!! 'BUUUURRRRRPPP!'
Why do they all hate and make fun of us so much? I don't (burp) get it.
Fuggem....
i like how Aspen was considering a 15,000 s.f. limit . . . that'll show 'em
I heard a piece on NPR this morning blaming McMansions as a major cause of the current energy shortages (primarily due to increased air conditioning loads, but also due to the fact that they tend to have more electrical/electronic "stuff" in the house as well). It was a trip hearing this serious reporter on National Radio using the word "McMansion" to desribe these houses. I had always thought it was more informal/slang.
"serious reporter on National Radio "
That's an oxymoron, right?
I like the term 'Garage Mahal' I hadn't heard that one before. I think the idea of making these monsters be energy efficient is a good idea. If your 10,000 square foot home can only use as much juice as the average 3000 square footer (which for me is huge anyways) that would at least force them to tread lightly.
Though that $5000 penalty seems like a joke to me. What's 5 grand but a drop in the bucket to these folks.
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
I disagree with telling people that they can't spend their money how they want. As long as they obey current zoning and building codes in their area let em build whatever they want. If people won't buy them then spec builders won't build them. I know that this article is mostly talking about customs, but even high end spec builders in my area are getting this same backlash. Let the free market dictate what gets built, not the vocal minority attending city council meetings. It is a minority, because these homes are selling.
This is America, not a socialist or communist state. If you don't like big houses, then build yourself a small one. If you live in an area with small homes and don't like the fact that home prices are going up because nice houses are being built around you, then cash in and move on, or buy every lot that comes up for sale around you to save the "character" of your neighborhood.
Economic gain (for society as a whole) is maximized in a free market. If people want to employ us carpenters to build big homes, for crying out loud, don't tell em they can't build what they want.
Trust me, I understand that some, not all, of the hummer driving, mcmansion type folks are yuppie scum, but it just sounds like sour grapes to rip on people because they have a nice home. Remember, freedom, as long as you are not hurting others is the American way.
End Rant.
However, they are hurting us. Noticed energy prices lately? When they consume like ravenous fiends because they can afford it, those who cannot are hurt.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
True, an increased demand with no adjustment to supply will result in higher prices. However, one who truly cannot afford to pay for natural gas, electricity, etc, should modify their consuption habits to fit their budget. Lets be realistic though, the people who truly cannot afford to pay higher energy costs are living off of the government (you and me) in the form of welfair. Again, this is not a communist state, so telling people that they are not allowed to consume what they want, be it in the form of energy, housing materials, etc would amount to socialism. Take it a step further, next thing you know everyone will be only be allowed to build their home on 20ft by 20ft footprint with government issue prefab housing and you can paint it gov. grey, or gov. grey.
I'll tell you what, the next time we have a major depression that doesn't involve oil shock, let me know.Until then, our current world structure of a hybrid free market with socialist infusions seems to do a heck of a lot better job at mitigating the whims of an uncontrolled market than freer markets ever did.The laws of supply and demand are inviolate, for the most part, anyway. That means if anything gets at all scarce, only those with money can get it, and I'm sorry, I don't feel that's appropriate with energy, which many people need to survive. There are limits to how worthy I think money makes you to run rampant over everyone else's needs.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
RobI fully agree with your last paragraph."The laws of supply and demand are inviolate, for the most part, anyway. That means if anything gets at all scarce, only those with money can get it, and I'm sorry, I don't feel that's appropriate with energy, which many people need to survive. There are limits to how worthy I think money makes you to run rampant over everyone else's needs."Arthurhttp://www.thesmallbuildingcompany.com
76870.10 in reply to 76870.9 "I'll tell you what, the next time we have a major depression that doesn't involve oil shock, let me know." I think if you will check, when more than 1% of the folks in China own cars, energy prices will climb much faster than from the growth of McMansions here in the good ole USofA. What other developed country has energy prices lower than there are here?
I'm pushing 60 so probably have a different view than the average here. My first house cost $12,500 in 1968 and the upstairs appartment rented out for $75/mo. My first new car in 1967 cost $1,899 (a Chevy Chevelle SS not a VW)
Hi NRTRob. Are you in the trades? If so, I imagine you have a truck. Could you get by with 4 cylinders instead of 6? Or 6 instead of 8?
There is difference between necessity and excess and no, I don't do installs so I don't have a truck.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
I hear you, but most of the trades folks I know can fit all their everyday tools in a Prius almost as easily as a truck no matter how big. I personally believe in energy conservation and have been riding a 55 MPG motocycle instead of a car almost every day to do what I can. In addition I have Icynene in the walls and 14 SEER compressors outside.
I see your point, but I think the best we can hope for is to educate people to make the best decisions they can. I don't think the excess will stop but I do think if people know enough, they'll be willing to make decisions and pay what it takes to limit their impact.
"Until then, our current world structure of a hybrid free market with socialist infusions seems to do a heck of a lot better job at mitigating the whims of an uncontrolled market than freer markets ever did."
---I disagree, free markets don't need mitigating, they adapt to the needs and desires of consumers. When gas prices hit 6 per gallon, and they very may will someday, there will be alternative options available. Why? Because demand for other options will be so great that entrepenuers all over will be trying to cook something up that you can run your vehicle on other than petrol. Try being an entrepaneur in Cuba. Guess what, it won't happen. Also I'm fairly certain that the amount of free market democracies has increased over the last century compared to the amount of communist, socialist, and dictatorships. Our quality of life and economic prosperity is light years ahead of generations past, therefore one can deduce that free markets and free markets only produce the most economic prosperity.
Next time you buy a new pair of nailbags put em up to your nose and take a big whiff. What you'll smell is sweat from a 14 yr old girl working 18 hour days in deplorable conditions in a Chinese factory where the government sets her wage. I bet she would beg to come to America and pay high gas prices in order to have shot at making a real wage.
NRTRob, I'm not trying to get you riled up, but I feel strongly that free markets, capitalism, and liberty are the foundation of this country. I have a feeling that we may just have to agree to disagree on this one, but hey that also is what is so good about this country, open discussion where you can say what you want.
Cheeers.
well said again Left handed hammer. stinky
"Our quality of life and economic prosperity is light years ahead of generations past,..."I agree."...therefore one can deduce that free markets and free markets only produce the most economic prosperity."Well, not quite. More accurately, one can deduce that mitigated free markets and mitigated free markets only produce the most economic prosperity.We do not have an unfettered free market in this country, and I, for one, believe we are better off because of the fetters.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
"We do not have an unfettered free market in this country, and I, for one, believe we are better off because of the fetters."
True, and I agree with you to a certain extent. There is no such thing as a 100% free market. Taxes, price floors, price ceilings, etc., are all fetters. The Fed setting the prime lending rate is a fetter. I totally agree that we need fetters, but fetters that limit the size of a house someone wants to build is a fetter that must be plucked. Those fetters lead us to a red duck, er country, if ya catch my drift.
I know you feel that way, but I have one point to make; there are no free markets. anywhere. that's the point I'm making; until you advocate the fed stops bufferring the economy w/interest rate manipulation and doing things like that, you don't advocate for a truly free market.Furthermore I would not take a country under sanctions for 50 years as much of a counterpoint to american economic power. I will note that cuba, despite sanctions and a total lack of free markets, has one of the best medical systems in the world.Do we have to go that far to get a good, accessible medical system? I don't think so. But a middle ground I think is necessary, not a faith based devotion to free markets to "figure it out".-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
How has this thread deteriorated to market economy discussion?
Lets disrregard consumer electronics & energy consuming products because people could operate them in almost any size house any way. Most of the 3-5000 sq ft house probably consume less day to day energy than the 1900's vintage structure they replaced.
I gratnt that citys should allow overlay zones if they are supported by super majority of the residents in the area directly effected. But it should not be because some social engineer city planner wants to locate low cost housing in the same development with large or even mid price homes.
If people want to go to subdivisions that are where they can build homes as large as they can afford how is that your business. Its their money. Maybe they would rather spend it there than on vacations. The taxes on their McMansions are certanly contributing more to municipal taxes, from which you benifit, than if they had built a 1000 sq ft cottage on the same lot.
> Most of the 3-5000 sq ft house probably consume less day to day energy than the 1900's vintage structure they replaced.
I'm not so sure. Real purpose-built rooms and a proper attic vs. the "open" floorplan and 35 ft. catherdral ceiling? Old houses had to be somewhat energy efficient, just because energy was harder to get a century ago. We move natural gas thru a pipe for less real cost per BTU than moving coal with a horse drawn wagon.
-- J.S.
just couldn't let this one go by...
we do have finite resources , finite energy, land, water and clean air..
an unregulated market means that those that can afford it can buy it...
the problem is that we are running out of things.. water is one.... energy is another
do we let the market allocate those resources , or do we regulate their distribution ?
it doesn't take much figgerin to see that a 10,000 sf house on 5 acres for a family of 2.3 people is going to use more resources than a 2000 sf house on a half acre for a family of 2.3 people
should we continue to say let the market decide ... or should we regulate?
my town has 9 sq.miles , on an island, there were 900 year round residents here when i was a kid.. now there are 6,000...
there are water restrictions in effect every summer... but no restrictions on quantity... just hours (outdoor lawn & garden watering, car washing, )... in the meantime... one family can consume 1000 gal / day... while another will consume 100 gal/ day
this past week many areas lost power because the substaions could not meet the demand..... granted that some can afford higher electric bills.. does that mean that we have to increase our generating capacity to meet the demand ?
WHEN we have our next gasoline shortage , and the gas stations are on allocation, and the cars are lined up for 20 blocks.. should we let the market determine who gets the gas ?
We have only 300 million people.. small potatoes in terms of some nations and their population... yet it is 3 times as many people in the US as there were in 1900...
let the market decide... or regulate ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"Next time you buy a new pair of nailbags put em up to your nose and take a big whiff. What you'll smell is sweat from a 14 yr old girl working 18 hour days in deplorable conditions in a Chinese factory where the government sets her wage. I bet she would beg to come to America and pay high gas prices in order to have shot at making a real wage. "
Ummm... I am almost positive that the Chinese gov't has NOTHING to do with the wage they pay that 14 yo girl... The American-owned multinational corp that moved their leather factory from middle-America to China sets the wage. They pay the lowest wage they can that still keeps the employees showing up for work... Same as here in the states. Employers pay the LEAST they have to in order to keep people.
I live near Rockford, Illinois. I was invloved in the distribution of plumbing, heating and air conditioning equipment for a few years, during a brief hiatus from engineering. I was very directly involved with most of the residential building going on around my immediate and surrounding areas. I can only speak on what I observed.
What I saw was that GarageMaJals (I like that one) made up about 1 of 25 new homes being constructed. Most, or more than half (there are plenty of cheap folks with cash), of the larger homes were built with high(er) efficiency heating, water heating and air conditioning systems. I know this because I sold them, and many cases designed their systems.
The other 24/25 homes were barely code compliant, on as small lots as possible, cheap plastic sided, 80% gas furn, bottom of the line cheap gas water heater, minimal fiberglass insulation, cheap inefficient windows, and the cheapest and least efficienct AC units as possible. In addition to the equipment being as poor as allowed, the cut rate work that the economics of the McShacks required, meant very poor duct systems (all flex, one return) wind/vapor barries were ineffective crap, overal construction poor and leaky and inefficient. The people, as you say that can least afford it (to pay for wastefulness) are the prime culprit(s), not the other way around.
These are the issues that really need addresing. If 4 or 5 % of the nation lives in extravagance, so be it. The waste associated with such, though it makes an easy target for criticism, is miniscule in comparison to the waste of cheap construction and low efficiency standards.
As long as the "hoards of unwashed" are demanding $85/sf cheap housing, and getting it, the McMansions will remain but a tiny blip on the radar screen of waste.
I would put forth that if the house is being built QUALITY, it is not a "mcmansion". Certainly I've done more than enough loads to notice that some houses with twice the square footage of another home has half the heating load. Can't argue with that.It's sprawling, cheap "McMansions" which take up the load of four to six more reasonable homes. Well, that and log homes.I'm not saying these people have sole responsiblity for anything. But money is power, and I'm of the old school thought that with power comes responsibility. Some, at least.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Good arguments NRTRob!
What the so-called "free market" people forget about energy is all the costs which don't show up in the price of the fuel in the first place. The notion that people are free to consume whatever they can afford is just fine, as long as they're paying the full and fair cost of everything they consume!
When I want to take a load of demo debris or off-cuts to the dump, I have to pay a tipping fee- that's fair. I do what I can to recycle and re-use to minimize that fee, and the planet benefits, as does my own pocketbook. There's payback for my effort. But these fat-@ssed idiots who buy these McMansions and Hummers etc. don't have to pay a CENT in tipping fees to dump all the waste products of their excessive energy consumption into the same atmosphere that I have to breathe! The taxes they pay on their fuel doesn't begin to cover the other subsidies governments provide for their stupid consumption. Until these people pay the full and fair cost of their excessive consumption, I feel that I have every right to tell them what I think of their stupid, wasteful choices- because I'm paying, and that makes it my business!
Governments need to fix this economic inequation so the "free market" sends the right signals to people when they make their purchasing decisions. Doesn't matter whether it's decisions about cars and square footage and insulation/heating/cooling etc.: right now, there's too little emphasis on energy efficiency because the full and fair cost of fuel consumption isn't being paid by consumers of that energy.
Yes, people need energy to live their lives, but you don't fix poverty by subsidizing energy any more than you fix hunger by subsidizing the cost of food. You deal with poverty by supplementing income- and you let the poor decide for themselves how they spend their money. And you deter waste by eliminating subsidy. In fact, you have to add taxes to compensate the others harmed by the unintended consequences of wasteful consumption.
I don't know about all the various codes, but this brings to mind national energy policy and tax cuts. Seems we can have a knock down drag out over estate taxes, but there are no tax breaks for weatherization that is truly needed. Every day I see single pane glass and leaky doors and likely houses without attic insulation. While worrying about the new, everyone forgets the old that needs upgrading. I remember packing our attic in the 70's and how much it helped. Of course it was great til the nails(not screws!) started backing out of the drywall. And, many older homes don't weatherize due to the owners being on fixed income or poor. What to do?Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire
" with power comes responsibility"
To that I must add that "with freedom comes responsibility", too.
I am not defending the practices of the rich and shameless or the waste of excess. Setting standards such that the large structures are built to a very high standard is not bad idea. "Large" being any single family dwelling (house) of 3000 sf or more.
I merely meant to shine the light on the other end of the new housing spectrum. And even if the 1 out of 25 houses being built (does anybody have any references to real housing market numbers??) is huge AND crappy (kinda the definition of McMansion, huh?) it is those other 24 that are the real problem. Market forces again are being used as excuse for the situation. "If people wanted better, they would pay for better", is something how it goes, right? While it is very easy for most to blast these "rich" people (while most secretly covet) and their possesions, it seems to much tougher or less palatable to go after the 1500 sf, vinyl-sided, r11 fg wall, w/r25 ceilings, low efficincy appliances, cracker box that are being stamped out like so many cheap toys, that could easily be made 20, 30 or 40+% more efficienct with minimal cost increase. I'm not in favor of bigger government, but energy efficiency standards already exist. Give them some teeth and make them useful.
I don't get the reference to log homes. I have no experience with such.
You and I both live in regions where heating a house is one of the greatest expenses most families will have to pay over the course of a year, short of house payments. Yet 80% AFUE (we're NOT going there today) appliances outsell 90+% units 20 to 1. The feds mandated 13 SEER over 10. That was a good, 30% step in the right direction. Minimum allowable combustion steady state efficiency, at normal operating conditions, should be mandated to be at least 90%.
I hear you Tim, and you make some very good points for sure.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Even those who can afford it get hurt. Anyone tried to by Sudafed lately to combat the effects of all this energy usage?BTW, will somebody please direct me to this here free market? I haven't gotten anything free.
well said Left handed hammer. stinky
Hey Phaedrus
I am from Cape Town..way back when.. I have been building in the states since late '80's. The funny thing is that I am strong believer in the notsobig house philosophy and actually try to apply some of its simple concepts over to how we work as a company.
I'm curious as to your take on the building craft there. I have not been back since a visit in '96. Are these McMansions your talking about stick built? they are probably built of block.. Can you summarize a couple trends and common materials for me. None of my old friends or associates have anything remotly related to building in South Africa. This may be another topic line but a brief idea might of interest to others as well.
Arthur
Hi Arthur,Most houses in South Africa are still built in brick, labour is still relatively cheap and houses don't generally go up in a week a la "Extreme Makeover". Timber framing is getting a toe-hold in some coastal developments - golf courses are becoming a bit of a blight along the Garden Route. In some areas we have these "securiy villages" where people cram their mansions onto very small plots and then put a huge wall around the whole place (this is more of a trend in Johannesburg). Most people here still believe a real house is built with brick and mortar.The big trend in Cape Town is for large loft apartments, some newly built and others renovated office blocks - the city bowl and Green point have added apartments in the thousands. People have also done some beautiful renovations of the old Victorian houses. Property prices have gone up more than 200% since your last visit and I think you would be surprized by the changes. My company is still very young (6 months) and we are generally subcontracted to do more of the finishing work like decks, cladding and small renovations. My inclination is to talk potential clients out of wasting their money on scale and concentrating on quality and making the best use of the space they have. I tell them they could by an Audi or a Putco bus - the choice is theirs.
Hurray!
I generally think people should be allowed to do what they want with their own property, but some folks just go overboard.
jt8
""The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese." --Dave Barry