I just saw this at another forum,
This MORON is trying to sell the instructions on how to backfeed
I just saw this at another forum,
This MORON is trying to sell the instructions on how to backfeed
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Replies
here is ####little blurb from the seller
Electricians will tell you to install a transfer box ($400) and pay them ($600) to install it. With the transfer box you will have to select which circuits are alive and which ones will not have electricity. Or, you can use your Whole House Generator Cable from your generator and have the whole house with electricity for 1/10th the cost. Total investment less than $75 for cable parts. Time to locate the right parts about 1 hour. Time to assemble about 1 hour. Total investment, 2 hours and $75 or less.
doing the hurricane, there was a least ten houses within eye sight of my back yard like that.. 2+3=7
I recall watching a press conference in Ms. after Katrina, and some POCO rep was explaning the hazards involved with this BS......and I wondered how folks.... who had no power....... would be watching
during the blackout that hit the North East a couple of years ago, there were alot of set ups like that too. You could hear people yelling "quick unplug that".
this e-bay guy is about as greedy as they get....he ought to be locked up....what he's doing is willful, negligent ,reprehensible, and potentially lethal
Edited 1/8/2006 7:19 pm by maddog3
Did you read the next paragraph? Sounds like he is instructing people on how to make a 220 v extension cord with males plugs on both ends.
"Simply shut off your main breaker and plug the cord into the dryer receptacle."
Half of his customers will be dead before they plug it in.
Here is a listing of prohibited items. While something like this does not fall into a clear catagory looking at things like are such as catalltyic converts and test pipes (bypasses) show the type of problems that they are trying to avoid.http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/items-ov.htmlI figured that it might be worthless to discuss the details of the problem not having any idea who would receive the complaint I made it fairly generic. Also with his comments that "electricans did want people to know this" because they made money I recommended that they check with others.Here is what I sent."Problems with Other Members > Problems with sellers > The problem you're having with your seller isn't listedMember or Item being reported: 6027049811Message: The instructions that he is selling (how to backfeed a generator) is very dangerous. It can be fatal to the homeowner, their family and power company lineman.It violated the NEC (National Electrical Code) which governs in most locations. Also all power company have rules against their customers from doing this. Check with any electrican, local building inspector, or power company about how dangerous this is."Reporting it is another another problem. Go to the Security web page. http://pages.ebay.com/securitycenter/?ssPageName=f:f:USThen enter Report Another Problem, then on the next page select problem with seller, then select Problem Not list.Then click on "email". And you will get a page where you can fill in the item number and the text that you want to send.You have to be registered with eBay to use it.For those that are not registered and what to send comments to eBay you might try [email protected]That is the address that I get email back from when I report a spoof. Don't know if that will do any good or not.
This moron will get sued and possibly spend much time in jail if anyone gets injured. Where is he selling this out of? I wonder if the code enforcement people in his area or criminal enforcement would be interested in what he is doing? Basically, this amounts to fraud.
Unfortunately, it is not fraud unless you can prove intent to provide less than claimed. He sells a report with information in it. Too bad the info is terrible top implement, but I'm wsure it does say how to wire the tail of the serpent...What he is guilty of is negligence and what he might be guilty of is negligent homicide...I can imagine some utility workers accidentally dropping a power pole on his car...foot...house...take your pick
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
plus,he uses a small cable to "run the whole house" unless burning the house down is this guys idea of fun, kinda like starting a campfire by shooting at a gas can
About thirty years ago, I sold MG sets, (motor/generators) amoung other things, compact garden tractors/mowers, chain saws, and horse tack, and so on. Making up an extionsion with two male plugs is nothing new, except now, some moron now has access to millions on the internet. During the aftermath of weather extreems, ice storms, and hurricanes. Customers would buy an MG set as if it were a quart of milk! No thinking, no asking questions, just give it to me! At that time, tractor trailer trucks were loaded with this kind of equipment, just standing-by waiting for this type of emergence, when there are areas effective with a blackout due to down electrial lines for weeks. I will say, there were times we sold enough MG sets to keep many electricians working 24-7. People don't think, they react, with deadly consequences. The world if full of Jerks selling to Morons, and killing Morons. I sometimes think of it as one of Charles Darwin's theories, "The natural selection or the survival of the fittest". Species, (us), with less favorable traits, (the dummies), are less likely to survive, due too, house fires, (over loaded circuits) asphyxiation, (running the gasoline powered generator in the basement or other room next to the homes power pannel, and of course if they are lucky, exctrocution! Enough said.........Pop
People don't think, they react, with deadly consequences. The world if full of Jerks selling to Morons, and killing Morons. I sometimes think of it as one of Charles Darwin's theories
Which would be fine, if they were only hazzarding themselves alone.
Instead, "they" wind up hazzarding their minor children, municipal & utility employees, etc. They set the house on fire through some swuft decision like refueling a running gasoline genset during a power outage. FD shows up, and it's not the fire, it's the putting an axe into energized wires, or the like.
That's the problem with "selection by ignorance," the 'fools' can always beat "foolproof," and rarely are alone when they do.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Isee that auction has ended, but he has the same thing up again.http://cgi.ebay.com/I did not get any response from eBay, did anone else?And someone else is selling a generator extension cord kit which consists of double male 120 and 240 extension cords.http://cgi.ebay.com/
Yikes.
He also says in his description, "I was asked NOT to publish this report because it exposes information that officials would rather not have known." If you check his feedback he's already sold a bunch of them.
Besides the fact it's illegal and totally a bad idea, if people need to buy instructions on how to build an extension cord they shouldn't be messing with this sort of thing in the first place.
this guy is ####class "A" jerk....wonder if e-bay will yank the auction
And I thought this was gonna be a political thread lol.
As in someone else finally woke up
My bad ====couldnt resist though
I have been really trying to stay neutral .....no pun intended......
I even put me on double secret probation.......;>)
http://i16.ebayimg.com/01/i/04/26/20/97_1_b.JPG
If you believe in voodoo, you can always throw darts at his pucture. The genius has another sale up about untralites.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
......more ......things the govt. don't want you to know......this wackjob probably tells people he's with the CIA
heres one of the things the FAA doesn't want you know... and avaiable only from this IDIOT.....( from his site).....How to get into expensive air shows without paying......
I reported it to Ebay. We will see what happens.
Bill, you have the ability to explain things like this better than I can,Thank YouTom
Next thing you know, the guy will be selling a ten dollar report on how to mix tylenol and vicodone with gin and stating that he had been asked not to publish that information becaue the medical establishment doesn't want you to have the secrets...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
ya kinda get the feeling the jerk is a chameleon....if anything happens to his auction,he'll probably find some other way to scam ...........what's wrong with vicodin...;>)
I was looking for the reportacrook button but didn't find it
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
the way ebay works they will probaly suspend YOUR account
I'm wondering if his instructions include usefull things like not running the genset in the house . . .
That, and how the puny little genny in the photo is going to supply even a single-wide, let alone and "entire house."
Hmm, wonder if we can rat him out to the eBay fair trade people, you clearly cannot do your laundry, so that's not the "entire" house . . .
If you have a gas dryer, I guess you have to unplug the range, then?
Wonder what you do if there's no window near the dryer . . . (or what you do with gale-force winds whistling through the part-open window . . . )
...."Wonder what you do if there's no window near the dryer .."
..or if the dryer is on the 2nd floor ?..
that's probably in another secret report
that's probably in another secret report
Yeah, and that scares me almost as much. After having spent $15 to out bid some other dufus panic buying in the face of some disaster (and then having to print the entire report your self on your time, equipment, and expendables <grinding teeth>), our intrepid h/o is off down to the big box, where the PFK in Electrical confidently says, "Sure 12ga will work, got a great big box'a it right 'ere . . ."
So, later on, in the teeth of some full-blown, even muni services are grounded and can't respond, monster event, the 911 operator gets a call of some house burning down, or "man down, not moving, prob electrocution" from trying to get that 220V up the whole box of romex with a 220V connector at either end up the stairs, or down to the basement . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
He didn't even BOLD the part about turning off the mains. I guess this is his thinking, that makes it alright? What a maroon!!! mk
"The Whole House Generator Cable is simple to make, easy to install (in less than 30 seconds) and easy to remove when not needed. You simply make the cable, turn off the main circuit breaker to your house from the power company, plug the cable into the dryer outlet (remove the dryer plug first) and have electricity to 100% of your circuits (If you have a generator providing 220 volts)"
I don't really know electric, assume to, or try to, so I avoid it, but based on what you guys are saying I was thinking, what if the power company turns the power back on while this rig is plugged in??I gotta get some work done now.
more importantly what if a power comapny repairman is working on what should be a dead line bur is being backfed
Ow!
Didn't see you had already reported it Bill... I did the same thing.
I thought that I would have at least gotten an acknowledgement by now, but nothing yet.
what happens????? since their power and yours are not synchronized......your little genny goes ka-boom.. zzzzzt... poof, and if a lineman is working on the line that the little genny is connected to, he could be very seriously hurt or killed...and..those guys got enough headaches without worrying about some one who is"concerned" about their deep freeze thawing out
Edited 1/9/2006 2:14 pm by maddog3
Well if done COREECTLY there is no problem. And I would not be surprised that if the instruction give a detailed step by step how to connect the generator and not kill himself or blow the neighborhood.However, there are many steps and it is easy to make a mistake.For example, which wwe have had in this area several times. ICE STORMTakes out the power drops to the house, also knocks down trees and main lines.With all of the stuff on the road the guy can't get home until 9 pm all the while the wife and kids are freezing and hunger.He is working in the dark with ice falling on him from the trees, wife is hollering at him, and the generator takes 30 pulls to get it started.Do you think that he made sure to go through all of the correct steps.
I agree Bill,
Technically, his plan will work. If the mains are off then no back feed (SHOULD) happen to the power company. And yes there would be power to the entire panel. Enough for multiple circuits?????? I mean at that point the breaker for the Dryer is now the mains, ( kinda, sorta) 30amps maybe??? per leg.
Would you want to try it ? Not Me!
I believe that you and this group are much more intelligent than that. Thus the reason this discussion is happening and the possible consequences.
I 'll use my transfer switch and make sure that things don't burn down, kill someone, or other possible consequences. Who knows what wire sizes this guy is suggesting??? or types??? so many ifs.
The only way anyone here will know exactly what his instructions are is to spend the 10$ and see what it says? But the thought of what he is selling is totally inescapable as to the possible harm that he may cause someone.
There are many people here that may be lurking that may take the wrong approach( I hope I'm wrong) because it was said that it technically will work.
I for one, do not advocate the use of this guys procedures as they appear too dangerous for anyone with little or no knowledge to electrical systems to try and employ.
Thanks for listening and allowing me to rant, and I apologize if anyone took offense. Bill I'm not pickin at you at all, I hope you know that. :)))
Have a Great one ALL !
Mike K
Stupidity is legal in this country. In some areas is close to mandatory. Drunks will kill close to 15,000 folks on the highways but cops will still be wanting better radar and the lines at airports will continue to grow as someone who probably coundn't dress themselves feels you up for years.
Human fallibility is the biggest catch. Under stress we make mistakes. Failing to turn off the main is an easy step to forget or to do in the incorrect order.Reminds me of a story I read about a boat that went down. It developed a leak in a storm. Not much of a leak but the lights went out and the otherwise well equipped operator was unable to find it in the dark. The leak, after hours, killed the engine and the boat sank after hitting rocks.The reason the guy couldn't find the leak was a simple lack of light. He had two large and reliable flashlights. Safely stored with their batteries out to prevent damage. He had good batteries and the flashlights were functional. Problem was was in his panic he put one of the batteries in backwards. He repeated the problem on the second flashlight. This he thought meant the lights were defective. So despite trying he couldn't find the leak. Later, then the accident was investigated, they found out a hose had failed and all he had to do was operate the sea valve to keep the water out. The two flashlights were also found and, once the battery was reversed, they both worked. Everyone thinks they are competent. We all assume we can perform simple tasks. Not a person here thinks they couldn't put batteries into a flashlight correctly. And yet in the cold and the dark of an emergency this otherwise capable seaman just plain got it wrong. At least one on this forum has used a quote about people succeeding because they didn't know they could fail. An annoying point of view when dealing with important matters. Confidence is fine but the simple fact is you have to plan for people to fail and have redundancies built into the system to make up for human fallibility. Spilling milk is one thing. Having someone hurt or killed because they make a simple mistake under stress is another. Important system have to be designed to be operated by cold, tired, distracted and worried people.It is hard to overestimate how incapacitating such stress can be. People have literally forgotten the number to reach 911. They forget which color goes to what terminal for jumper cables. A common story is people who accidentally lock their keys in the car when they are trying to get a injured person to the hospital or away from an advancing fire. The unforgettable combination or location of the key to an important lock gets forgotten. People who deal with these situations come up with methods. 911 is put on a single button speed dial with a symbol beside it. Boatmen commonly lash a knife to the rope bindings that may need to be cut in an emergency. Locks to areas that may need quick access are made to be easily broken. People need to use extension cords for emergency power or install a transfer switch.
I found this ....
..."This is no prank. The lineman killed yesterday was working for Pike Electric and picked up a line that was connected to someones house that hooked up a generator and did not disconnect from the distribution system. The linemans name was Ronnie Adams, age unknown. He had two children and a wife. As far as I know he was from Louisiana. They are trying to set up a fund for his family, but nothing I have heard of yet. I will let yall know more as I hear of it. I wish they would really teach folks the proper connection of generators, this was a really tragic and preventable accident. Stay Safe and think about it before you do it."
.....
and this.....
..."Utility crewman in hurricane recovery dies working on power line
WPMI-TV
A Georgia man died while working with a utility crew restoring electrical service to Flomaton following Hurricane Dennis.(FLOMATON, Ala.-AP) July 13 --
Police said 41-year-old Ronnie Allen Adams Junior, ofWinterville, Georgia, died yesterday afternoon.
Adams, who worked for Pike Electric, Incorporated, of MountAiry, North Carolina, was in a bucket truck working on power lines when he slumped over......."
her's one more from the same discussion.....
..."another safety tip(,) notify customers on the affected tap you are on that the power company is there restoring power, i was working toronado damage a while back a customer had a generator in a garage back feeding through a 220 volt dryer recptace exhauste going through the dryer vent we were 1 home down repairing the broken primary made all connections had the cut out open and when we closed in....you guessed it....... a nice quiet honda generator in a garage. no one injured, all the customer had to do is kill the main disconnect.....take care be safe......P.S. I drug up from pike today for some of my own reasons...."
People get hurt when people take shortcuts.Your post is utility linemen. A side not covered is that after a number of such casualties many utility companies have redoubled their effort in safety. Many POCOs have sent all their linemen and metermen to additional safety courses and retraining. Some have mentioned that failure to use grounds or proper safety procedure, no matter the situation, is now much more a potential firing offence. No more taking reasonable risks or working fast to get the people power quickly.So the crews are now commonly working 'to the letter', protecting themselves as much as possible, even though it greatly increases the time it takes to get power restored after a storm. Given the equipment they have on hand they can mostly eliminate serious risk caused by generators. But it means everyone without power will have to wait much longer for it to be restored.Incorrectly hooked up generators are to linemen what landmines are to the Army. Armies know how to work around and protect themselves from landmines. Mostly they just slow them down. Historically landmines hurt more civilians than military personnel. Civilians don't have the training or safety equipment needed to protect themselves from an incorrectly connected generator down the street.I think civilians are going to be the the majority of the casualties in the future. Down lines, especially if near water, are a shock hazard if a generator is hooked up incorrectly. The neighbors are more likely to be the ones who suffer. Getting shocked, having their house catch fire and waiting much longer for the power to be restored because the linemen have to work more slowly to protect themselves.
Assuming someone does have get "it" all right -- what about the new clip on the man who asphyxiated his whole family because the garage door blew shut while they were asleep.
There must be worse things than time without electricity. --only life threatening equipment and I would hope that family is thinking ahead.
Re: "There must be worse things than time without electricity."As with many situations I see people handling the situation by two extremes. Either they are helpless or all powerful. People flee without so much as tossing a can of beans, a bottle of water and a change of underwear into a pillow case. As if God and government would surely provide. Call this 'blame the victim' but come on folks. A few may have been surprised and caught in desperate situations but certainly not the majority. This is basic survival instinct. Food, water, shelter, medication if needed.On the other end I see people who want to be able to watch Titanic on their home theater while the world outside goes south. They want it all to be 'business as usual'. As if the hurricanes, floods and fires never happened. Somehow we, as Americans, are supposed to be above it all and protected from reality.Possibly this is the more absurd tendency of the two.You make a good point. Most people could do well enough without power. Most refrigerators will keep the freezer food solid for 24 hours and the cool food for closer to 36 hours. As long as the refrigerator insulation is good, full and the doors not opened. A trick is to store jugs of water if there is any space available in either freezer or refrigerator sections.If you must a small generator and a few extension cords to run a small lamp, radio and the freezer a few hours a day can keep things very livable for a long time. And yes keep the generator away from the house. Preferably down wind. Having to plug an unplug loads is not too much of a burden. IMO small generators are best. Larger units eat fuel rapidly even at idle and storage of fuel is always an issue. Store a lot and rotation before it goes bad becomes an issue. Too little and you run out and the home theater goes dark. NG units are nice but bulky for the time provided. Municipal supplies can be unreliable exactly when needed most. A small diesel unit is ideal but pr icy. Diesel also stores a lot better than gasoline, has a higher energy density so a gallon goes a long way, and is far less a fire hazard. Without an ignition system reliability is improved. IMHO diesels are also less annoying, noise-wise, when running.A small unit, a bit less so in diesels, are portable enough to go out on remote sites or to aunt Minnies place to keep her husband, the one in the freezer, from thawing.Bottom line is most people can do without a generator for days. Those that feel the need for a generator would do well to keep it small, use extension cords and use great care in its use. CO, fire, explosion and electrical shock are not minor concerns. For those with an aversion to to the minimal effort of shifting loads a properly installed transfer switch is the only way to go. Some POCOs have gone to installing a set of diodes into the meter can of houses where they know an alternative power source may be used. Some within the power industry are pushing for all meters to include these devices. If they did the risk to people outside the household would be largely eliminated. The generator could still explode when the power was restored and the entire family could be found dead from CO poisoning. But, on the up side, the neighbors and the linemen would be safe.
> Some POCOs have gone to installing a set of diodes into the meter can of houses where they know an alternative power source may be used.
A diode or two would do this just fine if the whole system were DC. You might have to dissipate a few hundred watts as heat, but that's doable. For AC in - AC out, I don't see how it could be done with diodes. They have bidirectional meters for people who have solar panels and sell power back to the grid. Perhaps something like that, only designed to trip a breaker the instant reverse flow is detected....
-- J.S.
4 Lorn, this is in response to your post about disasters and generators, and the lives that can be lost because of stupidity and ignorance. I was in Mobile, AL during Katrina, so I know what you're talking about. I was lucky enough to obtain a 5500W gen. before Katrina...we ran 3 50' 12 ga. x-cords from it...one for a fan, one for a light, and one for the fridge...didn't lose a thing, no backfeeding, and at nite we exchanged the light for the Milwaukee radio. I just thought of it as a big long camping trip! Keep in mind, too, I was taking the generator during the day to run my power tools and compressors (so we could tarp/felt peoples' roofs). Anyway, we didn't lose a thing from our frozen stuff, all was good...I felt lucky to have a place to sleep!
Hey man, thanks for your honest posts.
And to whoever wrote about the Pike employee getting killed, I hate to hear that. We had A LOT of Pike men in our area and they all did an OUTSTANDING job...I can't believe I didn't see anything on WPMI about it.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
..the fatality happened after Dennis.......http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=68066.38
To All,I,like Bill H and many others, appreciate, this dilemma. As we both stated (Bill H and myself)it will work, but It is not the correct, excepted, or legal method.AT WHAT COST? A persons life???? I think not!As noted by previous postings by many here, the possible consequences are not worth the paper or email it is written on. Postings of said occurrences of lineman killed, shows the potential indifference this person has for someone's life. I see this as negligence on his part, but also I must recognize of what I don't know(since I do not have his document in hand), if any disclaimers this person has or may have in his so called instructions to protect from this happening. ( I still believe it's wrong)The message conveyed by the AD is one of the consumer is being screwed by the licensed contractor and the government. No disclaimers about the safety or possible adverse effects of such actions. I realized many years ago when I worked on my Mechanical Engineering Degree (mid 70s) and my first job as the same, the importance of safe practices, I have followed this through my life in construction the same way. Now I'm a small GC doing about 50/100k+ gross a year. Each day is a new day and safety is always at the forefront. My Insurance costs DICTATE it. I have studied and almost done everything in my business at least once in my years. Not all was pleasant, many quite rewarding. I still love seeing at the end of the day progress and something new that was just an idea whether done or in progress and becomes tangible. I stand behind my statements as others have posted that this person
is, or may be putting peoples lives at grave risks and for what? I few lousy $$$$$. In my opinion,(yes,I know opinions are like AH's,everyone has one and they all stink) but this is reprehensible! I'm not one to offend anyone and hope I didn't. So I wish each and everyone a Happy and prosperous New Year. Peace to you all and be safe.Sincerely to all,Mike KBTW I am not a Master electrician but I do have my Journeymans if that counts for anything.Edited 1/9/2006 11:13 pm by MiKro
Edited 1/10/2006 4:27 am by MiKro
Not a person here thinks they couldn't put batteries into a flashlight correctly. And yet in the cold and the dark of an emergency this otherwise capable seaman just plain got it wrong.
Yep, and the only "cure" for it is discipline. Y' gotta have somebody "rig" the drills to have unexpected things like reversed batteries (or a D-cell flashlight loaded with "C's"). And, then, you have to go through the drill. Then look at what was wrong and what was right, then do it again.
Ever actually helped somebody practice a fire drill in their house? It's stressfull. Especially when done right.
That's one of the things that really bugs me about the bozo selling 220V extension cord plans as if all the liability is on anybody 'swuft' enough to buy 'em.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Personally I think the guy selling these jumpers should have his wedding tackle dangled into a cage holding a starving, rabid wolverine. Every one should have a large, indelible, permanently attached warning placard saying something along the lines of:This device is intended for entertainment and conversational purposes only. It has no legitimate electrical use. Anyone using it for anything other than decoration or demonstration of electrical stupidity while under the direct supervision of a fire marshal will have themselves removed from the gene pool and are subject to having a gang of linemen beat them with lengths of 1000MCM copper. You make a good point about drilling emergency responses. Unfortunately the sort of person who would be conscientious enough to practice and drill for an emergency it exactly the sort of person who would either use direct connections to loads or a transfer switch.
exactly the sort of person who would
Or runs a gasoline-powered genset in the kitchen, 'cause that's how long the cord is . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
C'mon Cap'n it's like shore power for your house.
Hey 4Lorn-"Dangle his wedding tackle......" not a pretty picture--I like it.
it's like shore power for your house
Uh huh, and there's a lot of adult supervision, from both sides, before making up that cable <g>.
Maybe the not-thinking-it-through crowd has been wearing me down lately. "I'm not worried about losing power, my heater is gas" being one of those all-too-common things of late.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
EASY GIRLS!! A lot of you sound like a bunch of frustrated hall monitors. Despite the fact that a lot of liberals here believe the government should be responsible for our decisions cradle to grave. We still live in America where we are still free to make our own stupid decisions.<!----><!----><!---->
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While I agree with everybody in that this whack job ain’t exactly promoting the public health, it’s just a book.<!----><!---->
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C’mon Bill, give me a break “I’m telling Ebay” What’s Ebays responsibility here? They should only list UL approved items? Employ a group of censors? Or just listen to you on which books to burn?
<!----><!---->
How many repair guys you know that have suicide cords in their tool bag (2X Male or Male X bare wire) it’s not textbook but it does work. Just as you have conceded, if directions are followed correctly it will work ( It ain’t safe but it will work) <!----><!---->
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If that guy (SELLER) posted here I would expect nothing short of virtual bloodshed—and I would be along side y’all. That’s the great thing about opinions—they can never be wrong, just disagreed with.<!----><!---->
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<!----><!---->All that said. I think anyone who is stupid and ignorant enough to back feed through the Edison should be shot—But that’s just my opinion.
Sorry about the font-my first post went who knows where, and I cut and pasted the next time.
Well if you look at eBay's policey's on what can't be sold or has limits on it you will see that that they try to allow selling things that can cause problems.http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/items-ov.htmlNow I don't have any objection to him doing this (backfeeding a generator), just realize that he has to live (if he does) with whatever damage he has done.I am more concerned about the people that buy this without understanding any of the background or what problems it can cause.And there innocent family.For example the husband buys this and sometime later the power it out and so it hooks it up and even follows the instruction and everything is OK.But he tells his wife, just what it says in the ad, "it can run the WHOLE HOUSE". So the next day she uses the washer and it work and then goes to dry the clothes and realizes that the dryer is unplug. So she remove the "other plug" to plug in the dryer and ....
Your preaching to the choir when you say that it is wrong and filled with dangerous possibilities. I'm just saying not to censor or ban it. I'm not sure if you can leave feedback on on item without entering into a transaction--like on Amazon. But I feel a review or feedback on the item is a more appropiate action.
As I read the code in NC, it is part of the law. Thereby going against the code would be a violation of law. IIRC ebay rules prohibit instruction for an illegal act. Sort of like selling the instructions to set up a meth lab (from what I hear that is readily avail free though). Pretty sure you cannot leave feedback unless you buy. Other option is to "contact seller with question".
One of the scary things is even if POCO tech is super careful, checks for power and starts work then the dummy fires up he is toast. Most guys I have watched seem to treat all things hot to some degree though (insul gloves, etc). Poor guy working to get the trees off the line probably woudn't.
I see that the goof has added this..........."IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY THAT THE MAIN BREAKER BE PLACED IN THE OFF POSITION BEFORE CONNECTING A GENERATOR TO THE HOUSE CIRCUITS."CYA, he's just gonna keep on selling this garbage ....
My dear departed FIL hooked up something like this, it was a dedicated plug outdoors. His safety was a now faded Sharpie warning on the recpt to pull main fuse disconnect. A sort of safer way would have been to use a box that had the same type fuse holder (throw away the holder)and force pulling it out of main and inserting in gen box.
None is good idea but they do seem to want a dear price for transfer switches.
I will rely on extention cords, but hey I have enough to each to the power plant in the next state. Inherited a 3kw I have never fired up. It might run furnace blower on the old side of house. Do not think (know) it would not run the 3/4 hp subm. pump.
I think there is an evolution with folks and their gennys.....
first they run cords,.....get tired of that..,
.
then some variant of a strip on the end of one heavier ?? cord,
.
and then something "automatic" .... without any real expense, but maybe just a little inconvenience,
.
and that's where this guy has found a market....IMNSHO, he is a predator
This is from an expired listed for the something on eBay.CA"WARNING: PROVIDING ELECTRICAL POWER FROM A PERSONAL GENERATOR TO A HOUSE WITHOUT A TRANSFER BOX COULD ENDANGER POWER COMPANY PERSONEL WORKING ON WIRES OUTSIDE THE HOUSE IF THE MAIN CIRCUIT BREAKER WAS NOT BEEN TURNED OFF. IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY THAT THE MAIN BREAKER BE PLACED IN THE OFF POSITION BEFORE CONNECTING A GENERATOR TO THE HOUSE CIRCUITS.WARNING: PROVIDING ELECTRICAL POWER FROM A PERSONAL GENERATOR TO A HOUSE WITHOUT A TRANSFER BOX COULD ENDANGER POWER COMPANY PERSONEL WORKING ON WIRES OUTSIDE THE HOUSE IF THE MAIN CIRCUIT BREAKER WAS NOT BEEN TURNED OFF. IT IS ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY THAT THE MAIN BREAKER BE PLACED IN THE OFF POSITION BEFORE CONNECTING A GENERATOR TO THE HOUSE CIRCUITS." It is a much stronger warnng that he has on his current one.http://tinyurl.com/azcudFor FWIW here is his personal website.http://bobhedges.com/" Thereby going against the code would be a violation of law. "Going againt the code is while a "violation of the law" is not "illegal", at least in the some common meaning.You can't be arrested for it. There are only civil penalties.Typically the only way that you can get arrested if you continually violate the codes and get a court order against it and then violate the court order.Just like there is a law requiring that you pay your property taxes. Now you won't get a criminal record for not paying them. What you will get is civl penalties (late fees) and possible evental loss of the property. But you will never get "convicted" of not paying the taxes.Now ignoring the code can lead to criminal violation such as wanten disreguard for life.However, if you look at some of the other reason that eBay will withdraw an item you will find that they are "items on in the public interest". For example you can sell catalyic converters, but they must meet polution standards."Pretty sure you cannot leave feedback unless you buy. Other option is to "contact seller with question". "I never saw a way to do that.
a violation of criminal laws (an illegal act) ...a violation of the civil laws (an unlawful act or tortious conduct).
Safety--Schmafty
ok, so you run extension cords from your generator, but how do you connect up your furnace?
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter
Here's the way I see it.
A. First your gonna need one more generator, and another one of this guys "whole house cords"
B. Plug this cord into the range socket.
C. Fire up both gensets.
D. The resistant/ radiant heat created will neglect any need for an auxillary heat source.
E. Invite local fire Dept. over.
Enjoy the glow
......;>)
Junction box in 110v feed and put plug on load side. Could find a double throw switch and make permanent I guess. Bottom line is isolated from rest of service. May be just as uncode but should not hurt anyone but maybew guilty party(:-).
Same FIL I mentioned earlier had demand cheap rate for water heater. He put a double throw double pole switch where he could use the high priced juice if had greater need.
"Same FIL I mentioned earlier had demand cheap rate for water heater. He put a double throw double pole switch where he could use the high priced juice if had greater need." I wonder if he was related to a crazy friend on mine up in western PA who had a camp that he had the power turned off in the winters to save money but for the 2 or 3 weekends he used it deer hunting he had a pair of jumper cables hooked to a 200' coil of #8 romex and climbed the electric pole to get his weekend power from the transformer lugs. When I asked himif he wasn't a bit crazy doing it he said "That's the way everyone does it up here in the winter" Last I knew he was still alive and had moved to Texas. Goes to show Archie was right when he said "Some devine providence looks out for drunks and dingbats" My friend was a bit of each.
Really what FIL did was ok, no harm no foul. He paid the full rate off the main meter when bypassing, got the good rate if using the other which was all the time we were not visiting and bitc*ing. The rest of the house was on full rate except the a/c which had it's own demand transponder.
Really kind of ingenious. He covered about four or five mountain counties keeping commercial refrigeration, coolers, icemakers, etc working. He was a legend and wonderful guy. Made all the money he felt he needed but should have made a lot more. A more honest man has never owned tools, at least around here.
He parked the van at 81 and gave it to us so he would be forced to quit. I sold it and wished I had kept it.
Technology outran him. He kept more old equipment working with less tools than most carry in a tool belt. He couldn't bring himself to troubleshoot by changing high $ pcb's and modules. If it had one of many refrigerants making it work he would figure out a way to make it go.
I lift my glass to Ed Whitson RIP.
just use another "suicide cord " from this guy........OR.....use a Hubbell flanged receptacle #HBL61CM64,itsa NEMA 5-15P..........the blades are hot but there is a cover.here...http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/wiring/catalogpages/Page-A23.pdf
Fact is, this guy is appealing to the type of people who go for the "gubmint's out ta git ya" theory. They also lump into their conspiracy ideology anyone else who takes away their six pack fund, like contractors, car mechanics, inspectors, doctors, the fire department, the police department, the welfare deparment (when their check is cut off) you name it. We're all working together to keep these poor fools from living the high life. Never mind they put their lives at risk everyday with their stupidity and waste countless amounts of their own money much less the taxpayer's with their idiocy. Seeing them makes me almost buy into the libertarian thing..just let them do what they want and kill themselves. If it wasn't for the fact that they want all the services to come and save their sorry #### at our expense.
"Just like there is a law requiring that you pay your property taxes. Now you won't get a criminal record for not paying them. What you will get is civl penalties (late fees) and possible evental loss of the property. But you will never get "convicted" of not paying the taxes."To break a law is a criminal act. What penalties are in place for that violation are usually in concert with the degree of social deterrant deemed needed and/or the need to garner reciprocation from the criminal/defendant.As for taxes, it becomes a crime when the feds, state or other public entity decides that they must enforce the law to the farthest extent by taking you to court to find you guilty of criminal wrong doing. In this case, to deliberately not pay taxes is considered criminal tax evasion and the law has been used on a regular basis against those who deal in large sums of cash in underworld activities. And oh yes indeedy you will have a criminal record if found guilty of tax evasion; a federal crime. Its called a felony record.Its just not used on regular Schoes often because it would amount to installing debtor's prison. The feds will try to work with people to get their money back rather than spending more money to throw them in jail. At least I think some people have the ability to put that logic together.
A couple homes I've built in the last couple of years had emergency gen-sets and auto transfer switches as part of the spec's.
I was talking to one of the electricians one day about running a small generator during a power outage and isolating from the grid by opening the main breaker. He explained that that was not an option and launched into reasons why including the remote possibility that the main breaker could be faulty and could backfeed even when open. To myself I thought that particular scenario was fairly unlikely....
A couple of months ago, I was putting a second story addition on an older house and we had to remove some of the old wiring and run new circuits. I pulled the main but we still had power! Had to get the Utility out to pull the meter to kill it.
Turned out the main 200A breaker was bad and was leaking by about 60 volts on one leg and 80 on the other.
Apparently water had leaked in at one time and the stabs on the breaker were full of corrosion and signs of repeated arcing.
And the Breaker, an ITT, was about 10 years old.
HO then mentioned that it sometimes kicked when she was cooking and drying clothes at the same time.
Mu understanding of transfer switches is that they are a true mechanical disconnect, more like a knife switch.
Square D QO style load centers have an accessory that attaches to the main breaker and a top right two pole breaker to act as a transfer switch. I'm sure Square D has UL and other approval to use a breaker as a disconnect device. I have installed several of them for customers. It is much cheaper than the transfer switch boxes sold by Northern, Connecticut Switch, and others. And you have the possibility to power any circuit in the load center, not just a selected 6 or 10 circuits. Of course my own panels are Cuttler-Hammer!Frank DuValYou can never make something foolproof because fools are so ingenious.
Well I finally got form email back from eBay saying that they are looking into it.
I guess my answer will be the same as yours.......
I see that his current auction has ended. There is this note;"The seller ended this listing early because the item is no longer available for sale."
HAHAHA.....good
Several companies sell connector plates for their breaker panels that allow two double-pole breakers across from each other to be used as a sort of transfer switch. This is better than nothing but IMO it is not fail-safe enough for such an important issue. Some of these plates are prone to falling out, are only marginally attached or are only attached with a few fasteners. If the plate falls out the mechanical connection and interlock feature is lost. In some it is entirely possible to remove the panel cover, have the interlock plate fall out and the panel cover to be reattached without the interlock plate being obviously missing. Great. You can get fooled into thinking your doing the right and safe thing and have it fail exactly when you, your neighbors and the linemen are counting on it most.My preference is for a dedicated, purpose built, service rated, mechanical, transfer switch. The old style that typically looks like a standard swing-arm disconnect. It is a simple mechanism that is highly fail-safe. It may fail to make either connection. It could fail to break a connection on one side but it is highly unlikely, short of someone opening it up and rigging a jumper, that both connections would ever be made at the same time. I also prefer a manual switch unless there are loads that are absolutely vital to preserve life and limb. Like an iron lung. IMO the better course is to have a loss of power alarm, battery powered of course, and a manual switch. A manual switch makes people do something that sets up a mindset that transitions people away from business as usual and into a emergency mindset.Automatic generator sets can automatically transfer power and carry so much of the normal load that the transfer into crisis is missed. Your running on a limited supply of fuel and the residents are popping their towels into the dryer to get them warm and blasting the home theater system. And this exactly when it would serve them better to limit usage of power and husbanding resources. Another point is that if the utility power fails and there is no one home and nothing in the freezer the generator will, unless turned off, come on and use up your reserves. Nothing like going to your mountain cabin and finding the 500 pounds of NG you thought you had are gone. Of course everyone thinks they are going to remember to turn off the generator automatic start switch. The time you don't, just as bettered bread falls buttered side down, is gong to be the time you really need it. Most refrigerators will hold for 24 hours. Many freezers, especially the better ones, can go for well over 48 hours. Keeping the doors closed is step one. All last longer when stuffed with frozen food or, lacking sufficient food, plastic jugs filled with water. The ice and cold water is handy when the power goes out. Obvious and public use of power when the people around you lack it may even set them up for jealousy and retaliation. Being prepared and having spare resources come an emergency is good planning. Flaunting them is unwise. No good can come from it.