Just hopping over from Cookstalk to seek some thoughts and advice:)
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We have a small 1928 wood shingle bungalow (to which a rear dormer was later added ) with all the beautiful old windows (6/1 and 4/1). Currently there are ugly aluminum storm windows (with two panes of a glass and a screen) permanently attached. They are not energy efficient and they were installed at different times (we think) with varying levels of skill – some appear to have proper seals and drainage and others not so much!
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The old windows are quite attractive and they seem to be in decent shape so we’d like to consider getting old style wooden storms for the main floor windows. The old hooks are still in place for a couple of the windows. I have heard about a couple of companies here in <!—-><!—->New England<!—-> that makes these. Some describe glass and screen panels that can be changed out and others appear to be very traditional, where you remove the whole thing seasonally (but what about screens??).
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There are four smaller windows in the dormer (2 bedrooms) that are crappy vinyl things that don’t work well or insulate sound well. We think the dormer was put on in the 1940s so most likely these windows are more recently replaced than that. We were thinking of putting in high quality wood replacement windows up there and possibly same in the basement, where there are 2 larger windows and 4 smaller ground level windows. The house is on a grade so the basement windows on 2 sides are at ground level and well above ground on the other two sides. There is also a regular entry to the basement on one side. I am not sure if the basement windows are original or not, since they may have changed them/put them in when the basement was finished – in any case, both larger ones are in our laundry utility area 🙂 and not that visible or useful for light.
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I kind of think the whole replacement window biz is kind of a racket but I don’t want to resurrect any old arguments around here 🙂 I really hate ugly vinyl replacements and I really don’t see the need to replace my beautiful old true pane windows with something synthetic if I can improve the energy efficiency and block more noise in a more pleasing manner. I would be interested to hear the positives and negatives to the old style wooden storms as well as thoughts on combining the use of them on the main floor bungalow windows with quality wood replacements in other parts of the house.
Thanks for your wisdom 🙂
Water is a great ingredient to cook with, it has such a neutral flavor – Bobby Flay
Replies
No doubt about it - wooden storm windows are aesthetically more pleasing. Triple track aluminum storms are reportedly good for stopping drafts but the aluminum conducts heat well and has little insulating value. Wood has slightly better insulating properties but that's only relative to aluminum, which stinks. Wooden storm windows are usually put on in the fall and removed in the spring and being quite heavy can be difficult or dangerous to install/remove from a ladder. First floor windows though should be much more accessible. And of course, wooden storm windows need periodic maintenance like painting, inspecting for rot, etc.
As for noise reduction, I wouldn't get my hopes up. This is a function of mass, area, and eliminating vibration conductance. Soundproof windows available commercially will spec laminated glass. You can have storms made with this, but the glass costs twice as much and they will weigh 2x as much too. If your uninterrupted glass area is large it may end up vibrating enough to conduct sound anyway.
All that being said, I just built and installed 3 sets of wooden storms to go over 3 sets of non-opening french doors. Hopefully they will help in the winter, but in the meantime I think they look great.
Here's a link to lots of discussion about keeping wooden windows:
http://historichomeworks.com/forum/index.php
Working on an old house now. They have split storms on the windows. The upper hooks to the head (top) casing, The lower hooks to the upper. There is a mating rabbit cut in the bottom of the upper/top of the lower.
This way you can either buy the extendo screens and prop open the lower storm or exchange the lower storm for a screen panel with the same hardware and mating rabbit.
You do need somewhere to store one or the other during the off season.
The storms are one large pc of glass-the 6/1 shows through.
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Marvin Windows can take care of the whole thing for you - including the wood storms. Or (like me) you can have them made locally - use Spanish cedar for longevity. You can even use Low E glass (we did).
Phelps Hardware makes good SS hanging hardware - http://www.phelpscompany.com/download.html and there's even one company still making the storm window hardware that hinges the storms out from head hangers for ventilation. Let me know if you want the website for that company.
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Jeff
Edited 6/29/2009 10:42 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Hey T.H.
Got a link to your article you wrote about windows?
Actually, no, I don't have a link, LOL. I don't go there often because of all the high-bandwidth scripts and videos that clobber my poor dial-up service....
But if Rissotto Girl wants to go to the FHB website and search, the title was something like 'Building a divided-lite storm sash'.
Ryan's here for three days; we're headed to Ottawa at the crack tomorrow to see the big Canada Day concert and fireworks. You wanna join the party?
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
no I have stuff I have to do here.
I may be called into work. That will give me the 31st july before heading out west for the fest.
Why are they called "storm windows?" They were never called "insulating windows," were they? The obvious answer is that they were intended to protect the original windows from damage, not insulate the house. This should lead to your answer. The only reason for "combination storms" was to not require the twice yearly ritual of swapping storms and screens. Obviously, wood would require more maintenance, but it beats that exterior metal look. I always admire the top-hinged storms still on a few homes in my area. A contractor in our area has been providing replacement storms with metal frames that look like the old wooden storms but don't require the maintenance of wood.
they were intended to protect the original windows from damage, not insulate the house.
Nuts. The difference in heat-loss from cold air infiltration through single sash versus double sash windows--inner sash plus 'storm' or 'winter' sash--is like night and day. In my own place, I went from using nine cords of wood per winter to less than six, just by building storm sashes for the eight upstairs windows...even though the inner sashes are all glazed with Thermo-pane. The winter sashes make all the difference in the world.
Even on older wood windows where the outer sashes aren't fitted with modern neoprene weather stripping, the coffer-dam effect reduces cold air infiltration immensely.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
we make a ton of wooden storm windows for customers who like the more traditional look here in pittsburgh and around. they definitely make a big difference w/ drafts. we use crt weather stripping and usually the hardware mentioned above. we also use spanish cedar as mentioned above as well as salvaged old growth fir. it would be nice to do the volume the triple-track salesmen did back in the day but oh well
Up here the most common wood for the sash is white pine but western red cedar is used, too. Both last well if maintained properly.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
White pine (new growth, these days) available here will rot in no time.
Jeff
White pine (new growth, these days) available here will rot in no time.
Must be pretty poor quality, or perhaps in your climate you have pine-loving parasites that can't take the cold up here. White pine is obviously not the equal of red cedar in rot resistance, but if kept properly varnished or painted, it will last as long as one could reasonably wish, at least around here. I have seen many winter sashes made from white pine that were falling apart because the glue in the joints had 'died' after 40+ years...but which showed no--or minimal--rot.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I like using White Oak. It is in the same decay resistance class as Western Red Cedar and Redwood, but is stronger and here it is even cheaper than pine.
Dinosaur,
You just changed the subject. It wasn't about storms over dual pane windows, now was it? Given that proper storms have weep holes for moisture, can you truly attest to their insulative value with single pane windows, or is this just an opinion?
Barmil
I didn't think I had changed the subject; the point of emphasising that my inner sashes were double-glazed was that even though they were, they alone couldn't keep the house as warm as they could with the addition of old-fashioned, divided-lite, wooden, single-glazed winter sashes...and that the difference was equivalent to a 33% reduction in heating fuel consumption.
One might infer from that information that windows sporting old-fashioned, wooden, single-glazed, divided-lite inner sashes might benefit even more from winter sashes of the same construction.
BTW, weep holes ought to be in the sill, not the sashes. Vent holes, OTOH, are normally drilled in the bottom rail of the winter sash. In mine, there are three 1"-diameter vent holes in that rail, and they are covered by a wooden flap when it is desireable to close them.
That flap seals a lot tighter than you might think; the flap and stop are both beveled and mitered so that as the flap closes, the bevel forces it tight against the rail while the mitre keeps it from swinging down too far. I can attest that no air infiltration worth mentioning gets through there...and the amount of cold air that gets through the weeps is very small and arrives at such low pressure (the wind having been seriously slowed down by the small diameter of the weeps) that it isn't an issue in this type of window.
I am not claiming that old-fashioned, hand-built, double-sash windows have an insulating value equivalent to modern, factory-built gee-whiz-technology windows...but when properly built and maintained they're a helluva lot closer in overall R-value to Marvin's Best than most people think.
I am also, to veer slightly off-topic, very definitely not a proponent of air-tight houses.
Now I'm changing the subject....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Old single-pane windows with storm windows offer insulating value as good as modern double-pane windows. The distance between an old window and the storm window provides a larger volume of insulating air than new windows.
I like your pragmatic approach. My mother would say "good for you girl"!
Mom still has wood frame storms, better at insulating that dual pane new-fangled cr@p.
Own house has 'insulating glass' that was 10% the cost of building in 1973! Ssure wish I'da built the 'old fashioned' way with storms.
Lotsa my pricy insulated galss has fogged internally (actually is etched glass due to biochemical reactions). Am gradually replacing with single panes and 'storm windows'. Heating bills drop as each insulated glass 1/4" spacing crep is replaced with 'storm windows'.
All I can say to the folks that respond " the modern insulated glass seals dont leak like the original types...." is to wait 40 years!!!!.
Most building codes mandate 'insulated glass", what a pile of horseshet!!!
Just decided to pop back in and tell you what we are doing since you were all so kind with your advice and input.
We are using a local craftsperson who specializes in the restoration of old windows. She is going to repair and restore the windows (6/1 and 4/1) where needed, some need weights/pulley repair or reglazing, a couple of panes are cracked. We also have two beautiful original doors with 15 panes that need some work - they have original very detail patterned brass hardware and original glass.
We are also using a local guy to do window work on the outside of the house - there is some rot in the trim and possibly the casings maybe due to poorly installed aluminum storms (sealed on with rubber cement!) and just painting and caulking over and over without looking for the actual problems.
This guy specializes in old houses and traditional methods, both have lots of references and work to look at locally with all the old homes here on the north shore (Boston area). He is also going to put in the Marvin replacements in the dormer bedrooms.
We have decided on wooden storms from a local north shore company also, we went to their workshop and talked to the owner and looked at the windows. We also had a samples to look at from a midwestern company and a couple of NH companies that makes wooden storms.
We did a lot of research, looked a few samples of wooden storms and I am so pleased that we were able to find the windows from a local producer.
It is not inexpensive of course, so we'll have to do one side of the house at a time, but it isn't an emergency or anything :)