I have some problems with a ceramic floor that was installed in my house.
The base was plywood and the installer stapled metal lath to the plywood followed by thinset and a suntouch heater was set into said thinset. After all this was dry another layer of tile adhesive was put down and tiles were installed.
Some of these tiles have come completely loose and the grouting has crumbled in other spots.
I thought of removing all the tiles and sanding down the adhesive then putting down a DITRA layer over this and reinstalling the tiles. This will save the heater but am I wasting time and money by doing this. If I choose to pull everything up how can I get the heater to come out of the thinset. Is there some type of solvent to loosen it.
Thanks Mark
Replies
Sounds like the first coat of thinset was put directly on plywood. Not a good thing.
The dry plywood sucks the water out of the thinset mortar, before the thinset cures fully. And without that water, the thinset never really cures properly -- it just dries.
And then it crumbles over a few years (or a few days).
If I'm right, then you need to rip it all out down to the bare subfloor.
Add a layer of hardiebacker, or concrete backer board, then start over.
And before you do any of that, you might want to do some reading over at http://www.johnbridge.com. Its a forum specifically for tile issues and questions. Lot of friendly folks there, and very helpful.
And while you're at johnbridge, check to be sure that your structure is strong enough -- they have a deflection calculator to see if your floor is too bouncy.
can I save the heater? Using some kind of solvent to get it out?
118949.3 in reply to 118949.2
"can I save the heater? Using some kind of solvent to get it out?"
Unlikely.
MikeInsert initially amusing but ultimately annoying catch phrase here.
If I want to put laminate wood flooring over this mess without ripping it out what do you suggest?
As others have said, saving the heater is probably a lost cause; and there is no solvent for thinset.Covering "this mess" with laminate might work, but it depends on how solid "this mess" really is. Laminate floors 'float' on the substrate -- they are not fastened or adhered in any way.This means that any problems with the substrate will telegraph through the laminate. If the substrate squeaks, then the laminate will squeak. If the substrate is lumpy or wavy, then the lamiante will be lumpy or wavy.And if the substrate feels and sounds like loose gravel -- well, you get the idea.All of that crumbling mortar and broken tile really should be removed. Anything else that you do will leave you less than satisfied.Spend a little money on a floor scraper (looks like a garden hoe without the curve), take a day to rip it up. Haul it all out in a wheelbarrow or buckets. It'll hurt for a little while, but think of the stories you'll be able to tell.
Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.
When you say the tiles were set in adhesive, did you mean adhesive or thinset? I assume they are ceramic tiles.
There is no solvent for cured thinset. it's a cementitious product. Has to be mechanically removed. The heating grid is not reuseable.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
There is not much of a way that anyone can tell exactly what went wrong with this install. Contrary to what some may think, thinset over ply is a sound installation method and is covered extensively in the Tile Council of Noth America handbook.
When this method is done improperly, usually the thinset will lose it's bond to the plywood.
You may have other issues including but not limited to undersized, overspaced or overspanned floor joists in addittion to the possibility of an insufficient substrate beneath all of the thinset/wirelathe and tile.
My GUESS would be that it's all toast including the underlayment unless you can scrap the thinset from it and refasten it correctly to the subfloor and the joists.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Considering the price of your labor, thinset, etc, the cost of the heating element is insignificant. Just buy a new one. That way, you can rip everything out and do the job right. You will save time and aggravation.
That being said, be sure to locate the thermocouple that drives the thermostat. It must be freed from the thinset carefully if reused. If reused, it must also be tested for the proper resistance. Unless you have the original tag that gave the resistance range, you have some research to do. I have installed several Suntouch mats from Lowe's, and they come with the thermocouple, so that may not be a problem depending on what brand heating element you use. You can reuse the thermostat.
I would never use any solvent on the wire grid, as it could definitely affect the insulation. You don't want to do this job twice. I recommend 1/4"hardi panel under the wire. Put down a coat of thinset on the subfloor and quickly screw down the hardi. Some subfloor is not recommended for thinset application (Sturdi-floor or other OSB-type subfloor, for example), so you need to check that out. Once the hardi is down, it is a simple matter to finish the job right.
Messing around and trying to save the old heating element will cost you way more in time and frustration than starting from the subfloor. Ultimately, the fix will not guarantee the best solution, but the cure will.
What about laminate on top of the mess?
I'm not sure what you are asking.How can you understand God if you can't understand people? How can you understand people if you can't understand yourself?
Sorry to hear about the mess
a
Few questions
1 you can remove the tile and most of the thinset from the floor?
2 The mesh is over or under the warm wire?
3 Now that you have the tile up and the thinset broken out check the ohms of the warm wire and make sure they match the a, tag on the end of the wire. b,the published standard for that size floor. if they do your wire may still be okey. if they are not pitch it.
4 warm wires stainless steel ground braid would be a mess to try to clean off with out breaking don't try.
5 if the above questions are answered positively . i would prep the floor with primer and self level the entire area to 3/8" min. to cover both the mesh and the warm wire. let it cure and set tile
Thanks Craig
Hi Craig,The warm wire is above the lath set in adhesive just below the tile.Regards Mark
You keep using the term adhesive. that's a liquid glue that is usually used for vinyl flooring, or small tiles on a kitchen backsplash. Is that what you mean, or is it thinset?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
adhesive is (KER 121) polymer modified mortar.
Is that the premixed thinset that comes in a bucket?
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
powder you mix it yourself made by Mapei
You still have not responded to my earlier post re: spans/depth and spacing of joists. Plus you really don't seem to know exactly what you want to do.
Throwing laminate over the mess is just going to make a bigger mess.
You need to do some forensic investigation in order to come up with a plan of action regardless.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
i dont know the answer re spans joists etc. I am trying to decide whether to completely gut the floor or maybe put a floor leveler on it then foam cushion followed by laminate flooring. This is all part of the forensic research. That would be much less mess and a faster solution allowing me to retain the warm floor idea in the bathroom. Please bear with me Eric. Regards Mark
I'd be leery of laminate in the bathroom. Too much water (or potential for water)in there.TFB (Bill)
I'm willing to take that chance I would like to know if it's doable.
I have been in your shoes brefore, trying to salvage a problem, but I think you need to just do this right. Laminate in a bathroom is asking for problems. And won't the foam cushion act as an insulator to block some of the heat?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Sounds to me like you don't have much to lose. I'd probably give it a try if the floors not all that big.
First thing I'd check is how the mud is under the tiles. Pull the tiles up and if the thinset under it is all cracked...you're screwed.
If there's any bounce/deflection in your floor then thats one of the reasons the tiles are popping. If all you have is a 3/4" plywood subloor that's probably not good enough. should be about 1 1/4" of wood. Still...even if it is just 3/4" that doesn't mean for sure the floors not strong enough although it's not a good thing.
Pull the tiles up and report back to us..photos will really help! Without knowing whats going on under the tiles all we're doing is guessing.
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