I remember someone posting a tool here a few weeks or so ago which was a sponge ringer for tile work. Looked like the same system that rings clothes out from an old fashioned washing machine ‘cept it’s laid flat over a spackle bucket of water. You drop the dirty sponge between two the the three rollers…it sucks it down into the water and shoots it back up clean between the other sets of rollers. If it’s not terribly expensive I may spring for it for a huge tile jobs that coming up within the next two weeks..
Does anyone have a link for that contraption?
I did this tile for the same people in a small powder room and grouting and cleaning the grout took me as long as the actually tile work and was MUCH more tedious. Was a nightmare I never would have imagined. Thank god it was just a small room. Never in a million would I ever have dreamt it would have taken so long to grout and clean.
Dark grey grout on dark grey/black puzzle cut tile with that uneven pebbly surface.
The people are telling me it’s the same tile that they wanna do a cpl of walls that surround a fireplace which is within the rooms I’ll be doing the floors in (as well as all the kitchen cabs). This puzzle cut tile though they said is the kind that “really” protrudes very randomly.
I’m sure you all know the type tile I’m talking about.
While you’re looking at the photos of the room I’ll attach…how long do you think it’d take you to do this floor using 18″x24″ porcelain tile?…and what do you all charge a sq ft?
I figure my tile prices by how long I think it’d take me but I do like checking that against sq ft prices. (here on LI in NY). I can’t even recall what people get per sq ft anymore…especially for these big tiles. The tiles sorta look like metal. Very contemporary look with no real pattern and he hasn’t told me yet how he wants them laid.
Oh yeh…I seem to remember Pete D saying he didn’t think it was at all necessary to back butter large tiles if you do it right which was his response to me saying I thought large tiles especially need back buttering. I back butter all my tile work but I still think large tiles need back buttering even more so….whatcha think?
I need to lay down some 3/4″ subfloor over the existing subfloor (1/2″) after I pull up all the oak floor. I think the existing subfloor is only 1/2″ ply. I’ll screw and glue my 1/2″ and 3/4″ down then 1/2″ Hardi thinset and screwed over that. Think 1/4″ Hardi will surfice? I know CBU’s add nothing to the integrity of the floors strength but do you think 1/2″ has any advantage? The cost is close to the same.
I’d really prefer to have the 3/4″ ply down first then the 1/2″ over that but being I’m gluing it between sheets I should be good…plus the screws.
I’ll enclose some photos of the area I’ll be doing. these pic were from when we removed all the walls etc etc..BTW…the last two photos show the room as it is now best…and the part of the kitchen that can’t be seen in the photos goes back exactly as far as the rooms adjacent to the kitchen.
Thanks
andy http://picasaweb.google.com/andybuildz/OpeningSpaces?feat=directlink
PS…I’d consider Ditra instead of Hardi but I think the cost out weighs the necessity…wouldn’t ya say?
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Well I did just find this 2+ year old thread over at Johnny Bridges...but it is a sorta old thread so if anyone here has any newer info.....
http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=48459&page=2
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1/4" Hardi is fine for floor - wieghs less for handling and is a little cheaper.
Like you said though -- thinset under it.
Jim
Andy,
I missed the previous thread, but the two sponge roller systems I know of, one is called Squeeze-EZ by Wil-Gil, the other company, Raimondi (I might have spelled that wrong) has a couple of models. I've never used them. The Raimondi's are roughly $90 and $150, the Squeeze-EZ was about $200. Those were the prices I saw at a trade show.
12" by 24", definitely back butter them. If these are metallics with a waffle pattern on the back, I might have used the same tiles. They look slick when down. With waffle backs, I back butter to fill the waffle pattern on the back of the tile.
Do be careful with the thinset, as you know large format tiles like this generally need a thicker bed, like using a 1/2" notch versus a 1/4" notch, but when using a thicker bed of thinset, the thinset does shrink a bit while curing. You can go to bed with the tiles looking terrific and wake up the next morning to see that the corners of the few have dropped resulting in a bit of lippage. Not having sloppy wet thinset can help minimizing lippage due to thinset shrinkage, or use something like the Tuscan Leveling system. Plus, the wider the grout joint, the less visible the lippage. If that matters.
1/4" Hardi is fine.
Edited 11/2/2009 5:16 pm ET by Mongo
Mongo thanks...yeh I think Wil-Gil is the product. If you look back atthe thread in a prior post in this thread I found in John's Forum there's a whole discussion about it and similar ones. the good one is the one I think you mentioned and apparently when they were posting (07) it went for about $400 unless you were at the trade show
__________
04-04-2007, 07:49 PM #8
lou432
Tile Man -- Southern New Hampsire
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Southern New Hampshire
Posts: 994
Coverings add: $25.00 Off Plus Free Shipping
Wil-Gil, Booth 5994, is offering a special coverings show price of $274.99 for their revolutionary SQUEEZ-EZ product. That is $25.00 off plus free shipping. For more information, visit http://www.wil-gil.com.Not that $175 less is gona make it that much more attractive , But Ive used almost ever grout method out there to try to simplify & make grouting less arduous including ,burlap,dry grout& burlap,towell drags,cheese cloth, sponges , micro towels, & most recent the Rumondi grout bucket roller thing @ $200 plus & I`m still ringing sponges ,so it still looks interesting Brian, I had the opportunity to use one of those monsters a few months ago on a 4K wide open space , & it works fantastic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
_______________________Unless it went down in cost I doubt I'd spend that kinda scratch.
And thanks for verifying the back buttering...I hate when I second guess myself but after seeing Pete D's post I did just that.....not that I'd have skipped that process anyway. It's always better to over-do than under-do.Far as the 1/4" notched trowel. Thats one area I always question time and time again. I'm a real worry wart. I usually go with 1/4"-3/8" notch on 10" tile and on bigger usually the same or like you said 1/2"...athough I can't swear how often I use the 1/2". another reason I back butter. I know what it's like to try and lift a tile after you do BB...It sticks REALLY REALLY well!
Now back to the Ditra...hmmm
Thanks Mongo
andyView Image
The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
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Andy, for custom work (if you are not a full time custom tile guy like me) you probably won't make any coin unless you start looking toward $25.00 sqft.
Let me know with how that jives with what you have been charging and what you should have in past jobs.
>>Andy, for custom work (if you are not a full time custom tile guy like me) you probably won't make any coin unless you start looking toward $25.00 sqft.
Let me know with how that jives with what you have been charging and what you should have in past jobs.<<<Watchmenow...
Whoaaaa...$25 a sq ft?? I didn't measure up that one room in the photos I posted (not even talking about the kitchen area yet) but rather what's adjacent to it... but I'm guessing it's about...600sq.(the old dining room den area)So that'd mean $15000 in labor??? That seems really expensive even for the gold coast of Long Island. You talking just labor for the tile only or including the CBU's and thinset and maybe the subfloor work? You can't be including the tile cause we don't even know what that costs.
What exactly are you including in $25 a sq?
And thats only one side of the room...then there's the actual kitchen. YIKES!I don't do tile exclusively but I sure have done a real lot of it.I'm gonna measure it all out next week and then I'll figure it out and let you know what I come up with w/o a sq ft price and see how that coincides with your number...but what does your number include ?
Thanks bro
andyView Image
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Andy, for custom work (if you are not a full time custom tile guy like me) you probably won't make any coin unless you start looking toward $25.00 sqft.<<<watchmenow...could you tell me what your number covers? Is that just labor...for just the tile alone..what do you include in that number and is that with your mark up added in?
Thanks
andyView Image
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Danger with quarter-inch cement board is that the screws can pull through real easy especially if you use Piffin screws instead of CBU screws. Since you'd be glueing it to the 3/4 ply with thinset, the screws only serve to clamp it till the thinset dries so that shouldn't be an issue.
However, CBU and Ditra don't do the same job. Yes, both are good in wet or damp areas, but CBU isn't a bond-breaker and Ditra is. That 'fleece' membrane on the bottom of the plastic waffle gives, so any expansion/contraction or other minor movement of the wood framing and subfloor won't/can't affect the tile job. Makes a big difference in cases where the house is old and/or has been added to in sections so the framing/subfloor isn't particularly unified across the entire area to be tiled.
On the grout-sponge gizmo, I've never seen one but when I grout I keep three buckets of water on hand and use at least two sponges or a couple of old bath towels. Rinse each sponge/towel in succession in the dirty-cleaner-clean water before putting it back on the tile. Otherwise I'm just wiping grout slop back on top of grout.
For difficult jobs where the grout tends to stick to the tile I use a floor buffer with a white 'Scotchbrite' pad, after the grout has dried. (For walls, I do it by hand. Ugh.) That loosens any residue which I then vaccuum up with the shop vac.
I bill tile work (like everything else) by the hour. T&M.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Dino..why do you say "since you'd be gluing the CBU's to the ply"? I always thought you HAVE TO! It's how I've always done it. Does anyone skip that process? Sure would save a lot of time and money. I know the reason is because it's suppose to take up and voids but while I'm doing it over "new" subloor material I always think..."what voids"?...but I do it anyway.And as far as using anything other than CBU screws. I don't think it's possible to use anything else because A-Piffin screws won't counter-sink themselves and B- they won't counter-sink themselves...lol.My only other thought is...well..at times I use a mix of CBU screws and 1 1/2" roofers. Roofers are sure a whole lot easier and cheaper. I hear mixed opinions about the need for CBU's screws vs roofers being it's the thinset that actually holds the CBU down. I even called Hardi a few months ago and they said roofers are 100% fine to use. Screws on the other hand make me feel a little better for some reason...but then again I am Mr. Overkill...lol.One other thing...Does anyone ever use a roofing gun? Then go back with a hammer and check that they're set right?
Thanks for the reply
andyView Image
The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
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On the question of screws versus roofer nails.......I've always used the screws -- it makes me feel more confident in the job.But when I was involved in a job that "went south" due to a plumber's mistake (and all flooring in the entire place had to be removed)..... The other contractor that had to pull up my installation was not happy. He spent most of the day constantly reminding me how good those roofers would have been.
I won't be laughing at the lies when I'm gone,
And I can't question how or when or why when I'm gone;
I can't live proud enough to die when I'm gone,
So I guess I'll have to do it while I'm here. (Phil Ochs)
I've been using a roofing gun for a couple of years now to put down cbus. I would prefer to be using hot dipped ring shanked nails, but they've been tough to find so It usually ends up being electroplated 1 1/2 roofers. No problems so far, and I did get the okay on this from Hardi.Cost / square foot, at $50 per hour I probably end up being $12 to $15 per sq ft for most jobs, for setting and grouting, including thinset. I'm not a full time tile guy, just do all my own tile on the kitchen and bath remodels I do. On something with detail and a lot of cutting I sometimes end up as high as $25-$35, but these are usually smaller square footages.Grout bagging is a PIA, but on a few jobs I know It has resulted in a net time savings on rough textured tile, or with dark grout on really light colored tile. Also, I always back butter any floor tiles, you can hear the voids if you tap on a finished job that wasn't back buttered.
Also, I always back butter any floor tiles, you can hear the voids if you tap on a finished job that wasn't back buttered.<<<My point exactly about back buttering...especially large tiles b/c they tend to float over voids easier.Thanks for the sq ft numbers...I'm gonna check that those numbers and the $25 a sq ft mentioned earlier here against what I come up with figuring it by the time it takes me and my hourly rate.Off the top of my head w/o measuring yet I'm thinking this job for the floor only will roughly be about 1000 sq ft.All on the first floor right next to the garage where I'll have all my tile...thank god..lol.I'm thinking I should figure the cbu's and tile as the tile job and the subfloor install separately to come up with my sq ft tile number b/c 99% of the time you need to install cbu's but not always another subfloor.
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The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
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I like keeping the tile install numbers separate from substrate prep, ( Ditra, cbu, etc). I'm using more and more ditra, and occasionally get to install over nice clean concrete with no prep, so it makes sense to have a number for just sticking down tile.
I like keeping the tile install numbers separate from substrate prep, ( Ditra, cbu, etc). I'm using more and more ditra, and occasionally get to install over nice clean concrete with no prep, so it makes sense to have a number for just sticking down tile.<<<I totally agree. Every aspect should be kept separate in all reality...just like your labor rates should be kept separate from your mark up. For me.....9 out of 10 tile jobs require CBU's so I usually figure that along with tile as one job which probably isn't a great idea. I spose' I do that out of laziness....which had me wondering before I read your post...was mark up included in prior posters hourly rate. I'm guessing at least 1/2 of them charged what they said they did and that was it b/c they never mentioned mark up.For me I can't rememver one tile job I did without cbu's unless it was a mud job in a shower which isn't all that frequent being I don't do tile exclusively.In one of my prior posts here where I linked a bathroom job I did...I did a drypack job in a giant shower but the whole job was so bizzare I just figured all my time and no sq footage at all.
I guess thats a bad way to figure things.
I'm trying to stop being so lazy with my figuring.
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The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
The Topics Too Hot For Taunton's Breaktime Forum Tavern
You may wanna stay in LI! The tile guy I use charges $6 sq' for pretty much any tile not in a pattern or on point. He supplies all the thinset and cbu. Two more days of grouting and he'll be done with about 1000 sq'.He went for an interview with the kitchen & bath place you told me about. They said they'd pay him $4 sq', and supply everything... thing is, they'd actually have to pay him, which apparently they don't really like to do. I wouldn't bank on that lead<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com We'll have a kid
Or maybe we'll rent one
He's got to be straight
We don't want a bent one
He'll drink his baby brew
From a big brass cup
Someday he may be president
If things loosen up
Edited 11/3/2009 6:33 pm ET by Snort
I did speak with that tile company and they sounded horrible. Sounded like they had no idea about tile work. When I asked them what substrates they deal in they asked me what I meant...I said..like Ditra or cbu's. They asked me what what I meant. I said good bye...WOW.No wonder they want you to prove you;ve done a gazzillion tile jobs b/4 you work for them...cause they have no clue whats going on. Hard to believe they're in business.View Image
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Dino...oh yeh...forgot to address the sponge issue and grout with you.The powder room I did for them was about 5' long by about 4 1/2' wide. I did the floor with a black 12x12 tile and only one short and one long wall in that black puzzle cut rough cut porcelain tile.If I tell you those two walls and floor took me about 8+ hours to grout and wash I'd be modest. I had about five clean spackle buckets of water and about five sponges.My hands were so sore from squeezing out the sponges I almost couldn't work the next day. It's that damn black grout and that really rough tile. When someone posted a picture of that sponge ringer contraption here I was drooling after thinking back to that grout job....lol.If you read the link I left to Johnny B's forum in a prior post you'll see how others felt the same way at times. I ain't spendin' no $500 bucks though...unless I did it full time...although I think he may be using a very dark grout for this floor he wants me to do but at least the surface is smooth.View Image
The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
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I hope it wasn't epoxy grout, too!
I know grouting always takes me longer than I think it's gonna; but 8 hours for that space blows me away. OTOH, I've never been so 'blessed' as to work with that kinda tile, so whadda eye No...?
Look around at junk/antique dealers for a functional wash wringer.Or maybe Sears or somebody still has them in the catalog. It won't dip and return yer sponge automatically, but it'll save your hands some.
Or, maybe you could rent one of those puppies? Check out the United Rentals on-line catalogue; if there's an UR agency near you you can order anything in the catalog in advance through him.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I no clue it would have taken me 1/2 that amt of time. Blew mw away.
Had I used an epoxy grout I woulda blown my brains out...lol.
Only thing that made me feel better was thinking, thank god it wasn't an entire full bathroom..OMG!!I seriously doubt anyone rents one of these http://www.coverings.com/exhibitors/showexhibitor.php?exhibitor_id=13454
Most people never even heard of em'.I wish I could find the post I first saw them in here. Even had a video.
Maybe someone will come by this thread and has a link to it.The whole thing was that it does it automatically and pretty fast too.View Image
The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
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I did a couple thousand feet of charcoal (black) grout over textured tiles over the past year.I used a grout bag. Takes a little longer to place the grout, but it saved mega-hours in cleanup.Smooth tile is "no worries", even some textured are okay, but there are some textures that hold grout and shred sponges.I don't bag grout often, but there's usually a good reason when I do.
No way could I use a grout bag on those tiles. That puzzle cut tile they used as you know are on a grid backing and the grout lines are like an 1/8 of an inch.
The only time I needed to use a grout bag on tile was for the border tiles on this job I did 2 summers ago.. http://picasaweb.google.com/andybuildz/BBQTILETOP?feat=directlink
I won't even go into what a nightmare setting those tiles were. It was in the blazing hot sun in the hottest part of the summer. I did get there early but the sun does eventually get there. I started using their picnic table umbrella but still...those tiles heated up so much I almost couldn't touch em'. What a nightmare with the thinset drying too fast. I did manage to keep it shaded for the most part but still. That top alone cost them about 10K !!! Don't ask.And all the things you said pertained to this job I did for the people that want this job I'm talking about in this thread
http://picasaweb.google.com/andybuildz/KAYLINMASTERBATH?feat=directlink
That job they told me "after the contract was signed" that they told me they wanted it done on the diagonal. No way!! I'd have put it in the contract had I heard them say that. I didn't charge them extra b/c...well...I just didn't. the worst part was tiling around that wall with the glass window I put in. On the inside. What a job lining all the tiles up so that when I past the window..top and bottom...that the tiles still lined up. What a mind twister that was. AND..it was on the second floor AND in the dead of winter and my wet saw kept freezing up outside. the little tubes that feed the blade REALLY froze up fast. That sooooo sucked...lol...not funny. Well...it might be now. That room was a small walk in closet and an old 195o's bathroom I gutted and framed together.And you're right...I always use screws too but sometimes...like I said I use both screws and roofers to save a little time and screw splinters...I hate friggin screw splinters...lol.On this big job I'll probably do the same 1/2 n 1/2 on the floors.I wonder...if you were to seal the tile on those real rough tiles before you grout would they clean up easier? hmmmmView Image
The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
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Looks like I got lost somewhere in your description. I thought the tiles were solid large format, something like 12" by 24" or 18" by 24". I figured with tile that size you could use a grout bag.Are these instead mosaic on a mesh backing? I'm confused.
sorry...the wall tile they're doing on a cpl of walls around the fireplace are those rough cut puzzle cut mosaics but the majority of the job are smooth 24x18 porcelain that has that dark metal look. I think the grout lines will be about 3/16" which isn't too bad.View Image
The Woodshed Tavern Backroom
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Need to add: How they want the tiles laid will help drive your pricing. The tighter the lines, the more difficult to set. The wider the grout lines, the easier.Is the tile rectified? Running on a diagonal? Is the room cut up? Can you set up your wet saw near the work space or do you have to set it up down three flights of stairs and around the corner? Those issues might contribute to you price too.Edit to add: ALWAYS thinset the cement board to the subfloor. ALWAYS. Nails versus screws? Whatever floats your boat. I'm partial to screws on walls, Floors I can go either way, but usually screw. But on a large room, nails might be a player.
Edited 11/2/2009 10:55 pm ET by Mongo