If I can establish that existing floor and walls in a shower stall are in good condition and don’t leak, what could prevent me from foregoing the rip out part of the job and simply apply new tile on top of an existing tile surface? I might have to selectively open up part of one wall for new plumbing (or could enter through the sheetrock on the other side), but I particularly want to avoid all the time involved in creating a new subsurface for a tile shower pan. If the floor tiles do show some slight leaking from a water test, is there some way to prep and waterproof the existing tile floor in advance of tiling right over those same tiles? What about extending the floor drain upwards (maybe 3/8 to 1/2 inch) to accomodate the new tile surface? How do you do that?
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Replies
Do you think that the new thinset (or whatever) would adhear to the old tile?
I don't think it's the best idea. I like to have my wall tile lap over the perimeter of the floor tile, for whatever it is worth.
There are many thinset type bedding products suitable to adhere tile to tile. Just stay away from the Big Box products. Go to a pro tile dealer and get some Mapei or another good name brand.
How to riase the strainer..............you may be able to literally unscrew it. May take a bit of force and a bit of tapping perhaps with a hammer to break it loose. Or sawzall it in half and install a new one while trying to minimize the collateral damage.
Like I said, not the best idea I've heard of, but if you are just trying to get another five years out of it by all means, have at it.
[email protected]
This would not be a very good idea for three reasons.
1. You could have very small cracks or gaps that you can't see that would cause leaks when you add the weight of new tile.
2. Just the weight that you be adding.
3. Thin set needs a porus surface to adhere to.
Do not take the easy way out, do it right the first time.
Nailer
1) ?
2) what if someone went with slate ... or big a$$ stone ... as opposed to cheap bisque ... in a new const shower ?
suddenly weight dif don't make much difference ...
and 3) no it don't. Read Eric's reply again.
not the best idea ... but very doable.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Yes I did read his reply, that's why I decided to ask the tile guy's what they thought.
And they said doable but they wouldn't. To many things could go wrong.
Even if you have big a## stone or slate. And in new const.
Buy the time you sand it down and raise the drain go over it with a primer to make the tile or thin set stick to it, you could have it ripped out and new backer board and liner put down.
nailer
1. You could have very small cracks or gaps that you can't see that would cause leaks when you add the weight of new tile.
Leaks to where? The lead pan or vinyl liner that is there for just that reason?
2. Just the weight that you be adding.
C'mon get real. Suppose DW is standing there in the shower all hot and lathered up, winks at you and invites you in.
Sorry honey, the shower can't stand all that extra weight!
Now; back to reality.[email protected]
Let's see counting Jim Allen's post that's one out of seven that has worked.
In the midwest where I'm at they don't use lead pans, all they do is put some kind of liner down around the bottom.
But why go to all the work of "roughing up the tile or buying some sort of chemical to do this.
I also thinks it's a bad idea.
But being a trim carpenter in high end custom homes and remodeling, and watching some of the best tile guy's in this area, and asking them this question.
I also think this a really bad idea.
Nailer
Nailer, I didn't see any responses that claimed they did it and it failed. Should I go back and re-read? I thought eveyone was just opining against it and no one had any real world experience.
I've been know to be wrong so I might be mistaken again here but I don't think the score is 1-6 as you indicated.
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
No, I miss read your post. I thought he did a whole shower, walls and floor. My mistake.
We have been working 12 to16 hour days for 2 weeks solid to get this house trimed out.
Between owner changes and a break in we did get it done.
Nailer
Excellent....way to get the job done.I don't mind the discussion about this technique at all. I'm still comtemplating DanT post which talked about the possibility of mold within the two layers of tile. That was exactly the problem and symptoms that I expected him to raise. I just haven't figured out why that same idea couldn't be claimed for mold growing between the shower pan and the first layer of mud/tile. I'm not being argumentative or defensive...I'm just not really understanding how or why mold would grow in two sets of tile but not in one set of tile? Anyone?fka (formerly known as) blue
Another question posed to this group (with all this concern about water penetration, mold forming etc.), could the existing tile shower pan which is in seemingly good shape, receive a membrane on top of it as is used between layers of concrete in a typical installation? Or is there a waterproofing emulsion that could be rolled on or painted on, then tiled over instead of directly thinsetting tile on top of existing tile which seems to make some people nervous? Incidentally this is not a contract type of job for a client but for my own house.
That was going to be my solution tceleven.
I'm just having a hard time understanding what the real concerns are. I understand somewhat if there is extensive cracks. If the existing tile is solid, it represents a solid substrate to me: one that has the same movement (shrinkage) patterns as the proposed layer. That leaves the mold issue.
The mold issue seems to be the same issue that would always be present under the first layer. I don't fully understand mold, so I really don't have anything intelligent to say other than to ask those that do know something about it.
You are proposing a second membrane to direct the water to the drain, but I'm just curious about why that would be necessary. Would the water continue migrating through ALL the layers of tile, find the original membrane and migrate to the drain?
Lots of questions....no answers from me. I don't know how the water gets through the grout and tile!fka (formerly known as) blue
BAD IDEA!
Why? I've done it with no problem.
"the meat was prime,/the produce sublime,/but nevertheless/the dinner was/a horrible mess."
Samchang, 2007
Over the years I've seen it tried many times, but most times the ones trying it ending up tearing it out. Its like Russian Roulette if it works fine, but........
I see your "bad idea" response but no detail as to why and where the problems might be if the shower seems to in current decent condition. Elaborate please!
u have to scarify the existing tile to let the new thinset get a bite onto tile surface belt sander w heavy grit, if it roughs up the glaze, ur good i'd plug the drain before any work and do leakdown test if existing pan is compromised at all, ur stuck ripping that up and doing new pan in the end it seems not much harder to rip it all out and start new
"I'm not responsible for my actions."
"What about extending the floor drain upwards (maybe 3/8 to 1/2 inch) to accomodate the new tile surface? How do you do that?"
Isn't there a grate screwed down to the drain??
You can purchase extenders for the drain. Unscrew the grate, screw the extender to the drain, screw the grate to the extender.
They should have them at any tile store.
Rich Beckman
I helped my buddy tile over his existing bathroom tiles about 20 years ago. It still looks as good as the day we did it.
I think he may have applied some sort of primer over the tiles before the thinset. Ican't remember. All I remember is that he took the advice of the professional tile supply folks. Now I remember....we had two friends from high school that worked in a tile supply house. They told us what to do. It worked.
jim
fka (formerly known as) blue
Your message implies that you ONLY tiled over a bathroom FLOOR.He is talking about a shower, both walls and shower pan.MUCH DIFFERENT..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I have tiled over tile on a couple of bathroom floors. Ones with pink tile or such that looked bad. Worked everytime. As you point out, big difference in the vs doing a shower. Don't think I want to find out if it will hold water. It would seem to me the big issue would be if the new tile leaked then it would trap itself between the two layer. Which I can think of a whole lot of issues that could occure from that. DanT
Dan, I thought water ran through the tile and grout every time, so it most likely would run through the new tile.
What problems would you anticipate if the water got through the new tiles?
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
If you trowel thinset down you create a set of grooves that sometimes don't all get worked out. If the water went through the first layer of tile or grout joint to the second and was not directly lined up with the next grout joint it would stay put and go now where.
If the void were big enough or the first layer of tile leaked often enough I am sure it would mold and mildew. A lot of if's. I wouldn't do it. But then I am thinking with my business head. Besides we could tear out the shower in a few hours. Why not just do it? DanT
We only tiled over a floor and I explicitly stated that so he could make up his own mind. I'm just trying to point out that there wasn't any cracking after the fact.
I don't see much difference if it's in a shower but the shower drain connection would pose a problem...unless they have extendo drains. I don't know. I wouldn't worry about water leaking through the existing pan, whatever it is because it doesn't leak now according to the OP. If it leaks now, it will leak later no matter how many floors you lay over it.
The walls wouldn't pose any problem but I don't have any real world experience to back that statment up. Maybe I'll look for one to try and let you know how it works out.
fka (formerly known as) blue
Don't cover any old work with new work! Not tile, roofs, floors, etc. It is the wrong way to do it. The cost to completely remove the old and replace is minimal when it comes to the overall cost of doing things. It also gives you a chance to inspect the surface below for any damage, etc. Stay away from those who tell you otherwise. Good luck with your job.
1 understand why many people would be hesitant, especially those in the business. They've had their share of callbacks for various reasons and consequently, they often will take a very conservative approach with their reasoning and answeres when asked.
My friend was basically risking very little. He reasoned that if the tiles all shrunk up and detached, he'd have to tear up the new floor, which would be very easy since the theory is that it wouldn't work, and the old floor, which was just plain butt ugly. He tossed the dice and came out a winner. He was only risking a few square feet of tile because his bathroom is a typically small post wwII ranch.
The results speak for themselves. I'm somewhat of a risktaker by nature, so I wouldn't hesitate to do this again in the future.
jimfka (formerly known as) blue
In good shape, go ahead and go over it. For the shower drain, buy an aftermarket strainer and if you have to, caulk it down with something good. I have done it and think it is a fine and good idea if there is no outstanding reason not to do it.
Last week, I had tiles coming up and breaking, did not go over that--it had to come up. In the morning, putting down a laundry room over CVT tiles--works as well ceramic.