……why would you want one? Bragging rights? Are they cheaper to build? Are there any advantages? I wouldn’t want one. I know I see a lot of ads in FHB for them, but then again, I see a lot of ads in FHB anyway 🙂
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bimp
Style.
Why would you want an Avalanche pickup rather than a regular Silverado?
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
aren't the ~bones~ of a Timber frame different than a stick built?the Avalanche and Silverado share the same skeleton just different skirts
You missed the point. Avalanche and Silverado are both pickup trucks. A timberframe and a stickbuilt are both houses. Just different styles. Some people are willing to pay more for a different style."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
no I didn't miss anything. I think you missed my point.you said 'style' and compared 2 similar if not ~almost~ identical trucks as an example. why not compare a tri-axle and a Subaru Brat instead? their both trucksthe difference between a cape and a raised ranch is a good example of different styles. the OP asked about Timber Frames which I believe is different than a conventional stick built. that was my question and my point
misfit.
You seemed to be missing the point about the strength of a timberframe compared to a stick built home.. It allows design considerations that a stick built home can't duplicate. Plus a timberframe because the joints are morticed and tenioned together you gain really tremendous strengththat no nailed to gether house approaches..
Thus in severe weather or earthquake areas a timberframe can remain standing while nailed to gether homes will shake apart..
Why design a house to with stand 500 mile per hour winds when one which withstands 200 is quite adequate. I bet you own a pitbull. Am I right? Or a 130 lb german shepard or dobermen. Right!
Dude, relax. Or at least try to summarize your thoughts in fewer than 12 posts...
12? Now Zadrunas you are exploding the figure. No one can take such a person seriously. Never, know when they are lying, just don't know what they are talking about, etc..
I have had my fair share of fights with frenchy over the years here, but in this subject you are the one who is flattering your self out of your own imagination. I haven't seen you make one true knowledgeable statement about timberframes since you started into this thread.Maybe you did make one, but it got lost in the preponderence of fantastical allegations and falsehoods.You make it very clear how little you understand about timberframes
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DoRight,
Why build a home? a trailer is cheaper and a tent is cheaper still!
Why build something that will last ? Well it's called being a good steward. It took over 200 years for the trees that I've made my home with to grow.. So their replacements should have at least that long to grow before needed or I'm contributing to deforestification.
That's a big word but basicaly it means we need the trees to grow in order for there to be oxygen.. rumor has it you breathe oxygen.. So i'm helping you to breathe.. Oh and your children and their children and their children etc..
Your arguements wonder here and then wonder there. Just pointless. Most people don't want a timber frame, sorry if that hurts your feelings. Just a fact. Most homes do just fine as they are constructed, ani't no category 5 tornados in Idaho. So if your pitbull can kill a pig and your Idaho house can withstand a category 5, go brag to a skinhead or someone who cares.
You love timber framed homes, cool, knock yourself out.
So what is your point again?
DoRight,
You don't understand do you?
Some people want more than the minimum. They could live in a trailer park but choose to have a well built home made instead.
You could live on beans and franks but it's nice to have a steak once in a while.
I don't understand the pitbull referance at all. I have a New Fundland. they are big gentle dogs who's orginal breeding was as a rescue swimmer. Before that I had a St. Bernard. (who's orginal breeding was as a rescue dog).. But hopefully we can turn our attention back to timberframing..
As for most homes do well just as they are, I'm sorry but that's not true!
Stick built homes have a 2x4 or 2x6 every 16 inches and in a lot of places they are doubled or more.. the R value of a 2x6 is 2
so every place there is a 2x there is basically no insulation.
SIP's provide 100% insulation as do ICF's
So most homes are terribly inefficent at insulating.
The force required to remove a properly installed rafter from a top plate is 208 pounds. multiply that times the number of rafters and figure the force of the wind required to remove a roof.. Once the roof is off the walls fall down and people are hurt or killed.
My timberframed rafters will require in excess of 15,000 pounds to remove..
Fire,
SIP's or ICF's are very good at preventing the spread of fire while stick built homes transfer the heat of a fire from stud to stud .
Toss a 2x4 into a fire and see how soon it reaches the point where it's weakened enough to fail..
Now toss a 12x12 into the fire and check on how much longer the building would hold up..
Timberframes over a thousand years old still house peaple in Europe. Thru the devistation of two world wars some timberframed homes in the battlefields of Europe remained standing even when repeatedly hit by artillery.
Sorry, softwood is R-1.25/inch. A 2"x6" would be R-7.5, not R-2. Not incredible but also not what you said it is.Here's a link:http://www.sizes.com/units/rvalue.htm
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Get some facts man!
Deforestation? They ani't such a thing in the U.S.. There are more trees in the U.S. today than 100 years ago.
Oxygen? We need trees? Well, I love trees but the oceans are where it is at, dude!
And YOU DARE to CALL YOURSELF GREEN and brag about cutting 200 year old trees? It is the fifty year old stuff that is actually sustainable. And by the way a 200 year old tree produces next to zero net oxygen. Jsut the facts again. Only vigorously growing trees are net producers of oxygen and lock up Carbon by producing wood. 200 year old trees produce very little new wood, lock up very little Carbon, and produce very little O2.
I could go on, but it is clear that you pretty well, know it all including what "good taste is".
"200 year old trees produce very little new wood, lock up very little Carbon, and produce very little O2."
Another reason for making timber frames. It's the best use of resources.
Yeap, or saw the wood up into 2 x 4, or just dump them in a land fill where they will never rot and thus release the CO2 into the atmosphere, then plant a new vigor-carbon-fixing- crop of trees. But never let one stand for 200 years when you could grow four or five crops and lock up more carbon
THAT is exactly what I was thinking which is why I questioned eddie's example of 2 similar vehicles that share the same platform. hence my comparison of a triaxle to a Brat has merit IMO
"Thus in severe weather or earthquake areas a timberframe can remain standing while nailed to gether homes will shake apart.."The structure will remain standing longer in a fire as well.
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You and eddie both have good points. Perhaps the better comp[arison for him to have made is the difference between a frame style full size work van and a unibody minivan.
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> Why would you want an Avalanche pickup rather than a regular Silverado?Because you have more money than brains?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
noit's because a fool and his money are soon parted
Class. Style. Looks. Makes one feel good.
Kinda like picking a hot, sexy 20 yr old over a fat, wornout, hag that requires a paperbag to get the job done.
But OTOH, trailers are cheeper.
My Queen and I are finally making plans for ours after 25 years of wanting.
We expect it will be there for the next 5 - 6 generations or more. Some stick framed cheepo likely won't last that long and will need more maintenance.
Why wouldn't you want one?
Edited 8/30/2007 9:08 am ET by peteshlagor
Personal choice? I would never buy a Honda but have a Harley. I love my Yukon but could save $$ and buy a Hundi. I would love a timber frame - and acknowledge I will never have the cash to build one. Once, many years ago, I was invited to a wedding that was held near a lake and the reception was inside a timber frame. WOW! Cannot tell you the feel inside. The style, room, and feel. But what a lot of wood for looks. Then again maybe I feel that way because I want and cannot have?Mike
I think I would skip the timber frame and fake it a bit. I think you can do alot with glulams and fake beams. Add some rock and wood ceilings. Alot cheaper.
DoRight,
That's like having your wife wear a padded bra.. I don't know who it fools, and neither of you feel better with it.
Hang a few faux timbers around is like fake stone on the outside or vinyl siding instead of wood.. Nobodies really fooled.
You may as well cut a picture of the Mona Lisa out of a magazine and frame it, it's cheaper!
"You may as well cut a picture of the Mona Lisa out of a magazine and frame it, it's cheaper!"I know someone who would totally agree with this comment. He thinks that having a print is just as good as an original painting. He sees no reason to own an original masterpiece. I'm absolutely sure he would see no merit in a timber frame house. To ALL:Some see it, some don't. Design is completely subjective, just like color preference, sound, feel and music. It's like arguing about "the best song, ever". It's worth discussing, but there's no right or wrong.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Exactly! But some people love having something up theirs and claiming superiority.
I know alot of people who rather be six feet under than live in a house with exposed wood, or 10 foot ceilings, and surely not a cathedral ceiling! Of course to the "purest" on the board those people are classified as tasteless and scum.
All personal preference.
Who said anything a bout fooling anyone. Take a stress pill, dud and call a doctor.
DoRight,
Sorry, you really hit my hot button with that comment.. I'll save you the lecture but using the real stuff was cheaper than using fakle stuff would have been..
Ask I'll explain..
Ah, ah, ah, whatever.
What is with people who start threads, have no real interest in the answers they get to NO QUESTION THEY ASKED? needy, perhaps. OR just odd ducks?
"What is with people who start threads, have no real interest in the answers they get to NO QUESTION THEY ASKED? needy, perhaps. OR just odd ducks?"
Actually I've read every post and found all the feedback insightfull, a little harsh at times but still good. I found it interesting that a timberframe: is cheaper to build, comes pre-assembled, and will hold together better.
So with all that in mind, how come more homes aren't timberframed? Especially if they really are cheaper?
...and yes, I'll confess to being odd and needy!
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WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
>>So with all that in mind, how come more homes aren't timberframed? Especially if they really are cheaper?Great question.
Simple answer:
For centuries, timber framing was the way most houses and barns got built in many places. That's not true anymore. The whole construction industry is oriented to a different process now. So, stick building is the path of least resistance for most people.Timber frames CAN be cheaper, for example if you assemble a kit yourself or go out to a mill and buy the timber yourself. But how many homeowners are going to do that?
It's like clothes: if you knew how to tailor/sew/weave, sure, maybe you could make yourself a better outfit for cheaper than off-the-rack. Not so for most people.The major timber frame companies (such as Bensonwood, Timberpeg, and Woodhouse) tend to sell a high-end package that includes architectural services and high quality wall components (such as Loewen windows and clear, vertical grain cedar siding.) This is not a cheap way to build (though it is possible to buy just a frame from somebody and get the rest, at lower cost, in your own area). Then there's the issue of local labor. Most local builders are not very familiar with the timber frame construction process, for example how to put SIPs together correctly. If you go with tongue and groove panelling over the frame, that is a fairly labor-intensive board-by-board installation. In any case you can wind up having the TF supplier send down a crew to do major parts of the construction, so you may be paying "artisan" labor rates.Now, somebody here cited "fake" elements in timber framing, apparently referring to details like curved knee braces or acorn finials. These are not essential elements of a timber frame at all, but if you want them they do drive up the cost, just as interior trim details tend to drive up the cost of any stick-built house. Does one or another (tf, stick) NECESSARILY lead to a better, more cost effective house? Well, not really. You have to peel back all these layers of the construction process to compare apples to apples in the costs, but that is hard to do because stuff is kinda all tied together. To me, one of the most important factors (maybe THE most important) to getting a good house is to first get a good design. The major TF companies tend to offer pretty good, relatively low-cost architectural design services as part of their package. The vast majority of houses today are built without this. If an architect is involved at all, he is designing a few "models" that are not customized to the building site. Very often, a builder with no architectural training whatever is running amok with CAD software. The result is these ridiculous-looking McMansions with bizarre hip roofs, strangely intersecting gables, odd window placement, etc. And people pay $600, $700, $800K for these things.A smaller, traditional TF structure in my opinion can be a good alternative for quality and value in a house. However, again, the result usually demands more involvement from the owner/buyer than most people are willing to put in.
Tom
Well said.
""fake" elements in timber framing, apparently referring to details like curved knee braces or acorn finials. These are not essential elements of a timber frame at all,"Knees are very often essential in a timberframe and curved are not impractical at all. Here is why - In order to achieve the long open spans and spaces possible, a knee brace shortens the span loaded on a lateral member, at the same time it adds stress bracing to the whole designb of the package.When that knee brace is low, it interferes with views and interrupts headroom, so it is made curved to lift the body of it out of the way more.
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>>""fake" elements in timber framing, apparently referring to details like curved knee braces or acorn finials. These are not essential elements of a timber frame at all,">Knees are very often essential in a timberframe and curved are not impractical at all. >Here is why ->In order to achieve the long open spans and spaces possible, a knee brace shortens the span loaded on a lateral member, at the same time it adds stress bracing to the whole designb of the package.>When that knee brace is low, it interferes with views and interrupts headroom, so it is >made curved to lift the body of it out of the way more.I certainly did not mean to suggest knee braces are unessential, only that it adds cost to introduce details such as curving the knee braces. But you make a good point, I had never thought of the practical value of doing that.
"in order to achieve the long open spans and spaces possible, a knee brace shortens the span loaded on a lateral member, at the same time it adds stress bracing to the whole design of the package."As in the case of using the knee brace to build a knee-wall, where the brace supports a purlin along it's length in many places, I assume. Better use of smaller dimensioned lumber since the span is shorter and it's a good way to support a queen post, too.www4.bfn.org/bah/a/DCTNRY/q/queen.html
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"As in the case of using the knee brace to build a knee-wall, where the brace supports a purlin along it's length in many places, I assume."That is one of many locations you could assume that knee to be
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"Timber frames CAN be cheaper, for example if you assemble a kit yourself or go out to a mill and buy the timber yourself. But how many homeowners are going to do that?"
That is like saying pigs could fly if they had wings. Well, duh! But the fact is that pigs don't have wings and the facts are people are not going to assemble or buy their own materials. THEREFORE, a timber frame house is NOT CHEAPER.
>>"Timber frames CAN be cheaper, for example if you assemble a kit yourself or go out >>to a mill and buy the timber yourself. But how many homeowners are going to do that?">That is like saying pigs could fly if they had wings. Well, duh! But the fact is that pigs >don't have wings and the facts are people are not going to assemble or buy their own
> materials. THEREFORE, a timber frame house is NOT CHEAPER.As far as I know, pigs never have wings, but some people can and do assemble their own houses or additions from kit material. I'm doing that right now. One of the most beautiful, well designed houses I've ever seen was built from a TF package by a young pilot and his family who (like me) had never built a house before.I do agree that in most normal circumstances, for most people, a timber frame is likely to be more expensive than a stick frame house. And yes, there may an element of overkill in timber framing. Traditionally, builders often followed the adage "when in doubt, build it stout." If it is true there is more information, more science, and less doubt now, perhaps there is less justification from a purely cost/benefit standpoint to build with massive timbers.However, this forum is about "fine homebuilding". People come here to exchange ideas about different ways to build a good house, and weigh the pros and cons of those approaches. Cost is one issue but not the only one. If you are prepared to spend a little more for a house, then a timber frame package (DIY or not) is one way to find a good balance of cost and quality (including energy efficiency, durability, and good architectural design).
Tom,
I have to agree with you regarding the fact that most timberframes are overbuilt. Tedd Benson (who was a trained structural engineer) in his first book spoke to that fact.. His first timberframe was built to met structural requirements but both his family and nearly everyone who looked at it worried about the small size of the timbers involved.. While he assured them of the strength of the size of the timbers the fact that he needed to at all was an indication of the expectations of peoples need to see large sized timbers..
My walls have six by six inch white oak timbers every 4 feet, each capable of carrying 20 ton loads, They are backed up by a SIP that's 200% stronger than a typical stick built wall of the same thickness. IN addition to that they are backed up again by the load bearing black walnut timbers tied to the white oak timbers on the inside.. Yet I've had to explain that fact to countless people who expect even larger timbers.
I'll also agree that timberframes are over built with regard to fire resistance and thermal efficiency. Finally they are overbuilt with regard to durability..
While that isn't important to some people there is a significant portion of the population who is concerned about such issues..
How do you figure your 6x6 oak timbers can hold up 40,000 lbs.?What is the height of said timbers?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
"how come more homes aren't timberframed? Especially if they really are cheaper?"MOST timberframes are more expensive, especially when you have to deal with the uniques situations created for plumbing and electrical.Frenchy was able to do his on the cheap because of his unique connections to mills in the heart of the right forests in this country and to use of equipment. But for a contractor built timberframe vs typical on site stick built, you will find most timberframed ones are 20-30$ more expensive.frenchy has a tendency to exaggerate his opiniopns and information, but he does speak from experienceand on this subject, I agree with most of what he says from my experiences.I wouldn't put too much credence in Dorights line tho. He only appears here once every month or two to try picking a fight with somebody without ever adding anything of substance.
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Piffin,
There are actually some tools designed for timberframe work that allow you to easily make wire chases and put plumbng into timbers.. I'm refering to what's called a grove cutter. Think of a big skil saw with a dado head and You'll have an idea of what it is..
You can also use Milwaukie's self feeding bits and extensions to bore holes length wise into timbers remarkably easily. I have them in various sizes all the way up to 4 5/8ths.
Now I will admit that if I'm boring that large of hole into a dried white oak timber I don't do it casually. The pipe handle is fitted and braced against something. That big a bit catches and you don't want to be wrestling on top of a step ladder unless you happen to have purchased that portable helicopter option..
As for the cost differances. It's hard for me to calculate how much profit others need to do the work of timberframing. I know that the costs I've given with regard to sawmill costs of wood are correct, because they are published weekly in the Hardwood Market Report and I always check a recent copy of that magazine prior to speaking about prices.. Plus I add whatever information the various sawmills I've called on tell me with regard to local prices. For example the Hardwood Market Report lists Black walnut price at $1.65 bd.ft. mill run but locally sawmills have been able to sell all they can get for over $2.85 to a Chineese buyer who accepts early wood as a no degrade. He's willing to pay double that for veneer grade timbers..
Mike, the answer is they are not cheaper. If they were then it would be standard practice. But alas . . . now in someone's wet dream . . . perhaps.
I will not argue that if you do the work yourself you might save money, I doubt it, but I will not argue the point. The fact is that is not even close to being an option for most people.
I doubt the materials are cheaper, in fact a year or so back I talked to a contractor biulting a timber frame and he said the timbers alone ran him $110,000 and then two years of rental for an off-site facility to assemble and disassemble. Then the cost of relocating the timbers and final contraction. Oh, ya . . . cheap. LOL!
DoRight,
Piffin had it correct, I live were hardwood forests are normal so I built mine out of hardwood.. even though I've saved dramatically doing this I sure haven't started a trend..
$110,000 for the timbers? Somebody cut a fat hog. 50,000 bd.ft. of cherry, black walnut, white oak maple etc. cost me less than $25,000. `that's enough wood to double timberframe a 5500 sq foot home build every wall, floor, and sub floor, provide wood to do the finished floor in hardwood the trim and several builtins plus cabinets and every stick of wood you can imagine.. (If you'd like to see exactly what I'm talking about go to 85891.1 in the archieves..
The going price for a 81/2 to 9 foot long hardwood timber that's 9x7 is between $20 & $22.00 anyplace in the country.. there are several market newsletters that will confirm that price.. Out west prices for Fir Pine etc. are cheaper still.
You want a timber that's 19 feet long, it's $40.00 to $44.00.
That's any hardwood the sawmill has available.. most sawmills are limited to around 19 to 20 feet. Much longer than that and you are talking about a rare tree.. But I know of very few homes with more than 20 foot high walls.. .
It's too much work for most people. they're check writers not doers. I constantly told others the location of the sawmill I buy from and yet they haven't had a single inquiry about doing the same..Not one in six years! (actually nearly nine since I bought my timbers)
Timberframers who do this regularly already own the building the timbers are stored in and worked out of..they don't need to rent.. plus as Piffin said tell the Amish they need to rent cranes to build timberframes or spend much money!
I don't know if anyone in this thread has brought up the Timber Framer's Guild, but they do help with a lot of timber frame raisings. It's faster than renting a crane and doing it alone, they often have experience that can be a bonus and it's not like paying 20 people an hourly wage.Cranes are nice but rigging a frame and using ropes and poles has worked for a long time.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Then ask yourself this question. Why is a finger jointed stub cheaper than a sawn 2x4? Then ask if it follows that a 12 x 12 would be cheaper that either?
Sure, cheap.
> So with all that in mind, how come more homes aren't timberframed?
> Especially if they really are cheaper?They aren't cheaper, unless you're taking a long run view. Most Americans can't take a long run view - they're looking at staying where they are for perhaps 5 years or so. The only way I would have a timber frame built is if I were building a house that I intended to own for 20 years or so. Few people have that luxury in America today.George Patterson
Well said George,
My great grandfathers timberframed barn is still standing today nearly a 150 years after it was built.. Here in the midwest that's ancient for barns, if rot doesn't get them tornados will. He built it using white oak. White oak is decay resistant and even though he knew decay wouldn't affect anything during his lifetime he was thinking about his son and future generations.. He came from Germany where barns are used for centuries and built it accordingly..
For that matter most timber frames are fake as well. Many have sa-per-u-lus (spelling?) details with no structural benefit. Who is fooling who? Oh sure the beams are real ... but ...
DoRight,
Sorry! There aren't extra beams that do nothing in a timberframe.. you really don't understand them if you make that comment..
I've made the comment that my home will withstand a level 5 tornado.. come spend an afternoon here and I'll show you where that's not an exaggeration.
Sorry frenchy, you are the one without a clue. Many curving this and that with fenial here and there are just that, fake, and unnecessary. Calm down and pet your pitbull.
"For that matter most timber frames are fake as well."LOL, you are talking about some sort of faux timbered housing that is not a timberframe
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I'm going on record with this post that I agree with you on this item.
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"I'm going on record with this post that I agree with you on this item. "
I just came across this thread and read you agreeing with frenchy. I actually looked out the window to see if I could watch the approaching doom.
You know that a broken clock is right twice a day.
SO frenchy is a broken clock.
Thanks - but what in the world is a glulam? Remember I am not a builder by any stretch of the imagination.Mike
"I think I would skip the timber frame and fake it a bit. I think you can do alot with glulams and fake beams. Add some rock and wood ceilings. Alot cheaper."
I've wanted a timber-frame home for a while. I wanted to use them with SIPs. Now I wonder if it might be better to fake the timber-frame in appearance and use a steel skeleton boxed in wood.
Nuke,
It's possible to fake a lot of things, and you'd be surprised at those who really don't know enough to realize it's fake.
However all it takes is one person who understands the purpose and value of the real thing and it's like your wife finding out she got a glass diamond in her wedding ring..
You feel like shif. Then that feeling will fester and fester..
If you want a steel skeleton boxed in wood, go for it.. make it the best steel skeleton you can but you'll be happier if you don't try to fake it into being something it's not..
Its no more fake than the majority of coffered ceilings I see trying to faux the beam & trim ceiling. Nor is it any more faux than the marblized painted walls because they cannot afford the real marble for walls.
I certainly never meant to suggest I was against the real thing, but the availability in my neck of the woods like most things makes it scares and treated as an ultra-luxury.
BTW, I got lucky and married a women that doesn't like diamonds.
Nuke,
I know that a lot of people use faux stuff.. that's fine.. In fact I was in Vienna and visited the Hopsburg palace (it's a rival for the French and British palaces) however all the walls are faux marble.. Done really well but still in a glance you can tell it's not real marble..
My Queen and I are finally making plans for ours after 25 years of wanting.
What a 20 something year-old? I'm confused now.
You've never been in one, have you?
Thanks for the feedback
Yes, I've been in them and even did some work in them. Mostly just drywall, painting and trim.
It just seemed to me like a lot of extra work to keep the beams clean since they were to be left exposed, but I'm still wondering is there any other advantage aside from aesthetics?
Someone had mentioned that they'll outlast stick framed homes, but I'm gonna say that the houses we build today, with traditional two-by framing, will definitely be standing for well over 100 years.
Besides, in today's market of "buy-fix-flip" the homeowners I know aren't looking at a house from a longevity point of view. Now it seems to be "get in, get out" with the intent on making money on the sale.
It's time to study up on the creatures.
Energy efficently speaking, a properly designed and constructed timber frame will likely outperform a stick built.
Longevity speaking, many European homes were built with timber framing techniques hundreds of years ago. They'll be there a coupla of more hundred years.
Connectively speaking, I've heard stories of timberframed barns attempting to be dismantled with a bulldozer, only to have the entire structure roll down the hill intact. Seismic issues are likely reduced.
Design speaking, the SIPS and framing involved give unsurpassed access and choice to placement of windows and doors.
I'm sure I left a few things out. But Ted Benson's books will fill those in.
Mike
I failed to list durability.. there are European timberframes that exceed a 1000 years and still going strong.. ballon framing done in the late 1800's and thru the 1930's is virtually nonexistant and modern stick framing lasts an average of 56 years before they are torn down or so dramatically remodeled they may as well be torn down..
It's nice to know that the home I'm building has the potential to be standing long long beyond my lifetime..
To see pictures of my timberframe go to 85891.1
I think you are smoking too much dope. 56 years? My cow just pooped. Go to New England. My grandfathers stick frame is 260 years old. A bit of dry rot in the floor, but 260 years . . . If yoour stick frame is a tear down in 56 years you are a hack framer.
A 2 x4 in a wall will last just as long as a 12x12 in a wall. Durablity is not a reason for timber framing. If it makes you fell better or superior to others to believe otherwise, ok.
DoRight,
Look carefully, they weren't building stick framed homes 260 years ago. That's relative recent technology. Ballon framing became common following the civil war and right up thru the the depression.. Stick framing as we know it became popular post WW2.
56 years is correct! I've seen it several places now.. usually in conjunction with comments about how they cut down 2000 year old trees to make tract homes that last an average of 56 years before being torn down..
A 12x12 and a 2x4 do radically differant things.. Barns which were the cheapest constructed buildings originally used a 12x12 because it was cheaper to make than a lot of little boards. Later as engineers began to look at barns their strength became apparent and that's what people like timberframes for, the feeling of permability..
Realize that a major part of the strength of timberframes has to do with the manner they are connected.. mortice and tenion contruction is far stronger than nails.. if it wasn't then all chairs would be simply nailed together rather than having mortice and tenon construction.
tell you what.. nail a chair together and then build one using mortice and tenion construction and a little glue.. Tell me which is more durable..
" tell you what.. nail a chair together and then build one using mortice and tenion construction and a little glue.. Tell me which is more durable.."Is it OK to use biscuits?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"Durablity is not a reason for timber framing."Methinks you are showing your ignorance of the subject."A 2 x4 in a wall will last just as long as a 12x12 in a wall. "Oops, there you go again!Don't want to bust your balls but these 2 statements show that you clearly do not have enough knowledge of the subject. Rod
Ok, sorry. Maybe I was a little bit too harsh of a smart ####. But if you have spent time on them and see no desire to own one, then fine, don't. There are no practical advantages. You can build with SIPs without a timberframe and you can build a timberframe with 2x6 walls outside it. The timberframe is essentially just decoration that costs a lot. Just like wood siding, stone work, wood windows, wood trim, soapstone counters, tile showers, real wood doors, copper roofs, nice landscaping, ipe decks, brick patios, and nice light fixtures. All that stuff is a waste of money if you don't appreciate it.
jesse,
I'm sorry buddy but you don't understand timberframes.. Let me state that you can build a house out of SIP's without using timbers, you are correct in that part. However you can't build the same house with stand alone SIP's that timbers allow you to build.
I'm not just speaking about the winderful wood either.. I'm speaking about the soaring spaces that are possible with timberframes that stand alone SIP's can't provide. I'm speaking about the durability of a timberframe compared to other methods of construction. While a SIP is 200% stronger than a properly built stick frame, by adding the timbers you approach bridge construction strength. That's important in areas where high winds and severe weather exist..
It's important that you visualize the way timberframes are connected. They are mortice and tenion joined. Unlike a home that's nailed together a timberframe can't be simply unnailed.. it has to be taken apart almost the same way it was assembled.
"The timberframe is essentially just decoration that costs a lot. "
Ah, fake.
Timber frames were built in European because you could not get very much wood, and because 500 years ago sawing a board or a 2x4 was a royal pain in the butt. So hand hew a few beams and back fill it with mud or stone.
"There are no practical advantages. .....The timberframe is essentially just decoration that costs a lot."There is a tremendous lot you don't know about timberframes. better read up a while before displaying comments like that.
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"I'm gonna say that the houses we build today, with traditional two-by framing, will definitely be standing for well over 100 years."OK, so how does that compare to the timberframes that are 300-600 years old?
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Mike,
I am currantly building one, actually a double timberframe.. European timberframes all have timbers on the outside of the house while American timberframes are all on the inside.. I wanted both.
Several reasons to own a timberframe. My reason goes back to when I was a kid and used to lie on my back in the barn and look up at those timbers. you get a sense of peace and solidarity that stick built homes simply do not have.. there is a sense of honesty that stick built homes can't provide.
Bragging rights? Well anytime you want something special there is an element of bragging involved.. it says that you are differant from the herd. Your reasons could be elemental as mine are. They could be exclusive as I'm sure some seek. or it could be more complex than either..
Advantages? I'll list some of mine..
Possibility for larger open spaces.
far more energy efficent*
use of local wood.
Lower cost to build for a do-it-yourselfer
Dramatically stronger!
I expect to be challenged on any and all of those items, in fact I'll be disappointed if I'm not. please ask away..
Lower cost for DIY? Why? And don't you have issues with requiring a crane for some of the work, which is likely more difficult for a DIYer to source?
DoRight,
It was far cheaper for me to build a timberframe than an ordinary stick built home..
examples..
Buying wood from a lumberyard for a house this size you'd expect to spend around $85,000.
I bought timbers, and "lumber" for this house. A total of 50,000 bd.ft. of hardwood and spent less than $25,000 for black walnut, white oak, cherry,, maple etc.. All hardwoods. I wouldn't have been allowed to use nongraded woods if this wasn't a timberframe..
I used a forklift, (telehandler they are properly called) and while I had the use for free, even renting one would have greatly increased the speed it takes to build something. A rough estimate is they allow you to build 20% faster using 20% less labor.. in actuality they allowed me to do things far far faster than that and with just myself working at times..
A crane is kinda yesterdays technology.. like building with a hammer and nails instead of a nail gun.. but for those who may be challenged by operating equipment they normally come with an operator. In fact that's a whole sub catagory called taxi cranes.. You call and they come and erect stuff for you..
"And don't you have issues with requiring a crane for some of the work, which is likely more difficult for a DIYer to source?"try telling that to the Amish!There are techniques where I could raise a timber bent all alone
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Thanks again guys for the good comments and feedback.
I'll take the funny stuff and the facts, it's all good, plus I'm learning more and more with your help.
I'm building one now, an addition for a woodworking shop.
I'd never done any homebuilding before.
The frame went up in just a few days with most of the work done by 2 people and a Genie lift.
Having erected the frame, I think the rest of the job is easier for a one-person owner-builder than a stick-built house would have been. The frame itself was built in factory-controlled conditions with measurements precise down to very small fractions of an inch.
The frame and wall package system allows for a thick, nearly continuous layer of foam insulation outside the frame. This makes for a more energy-efficient building envelope than one in which the insulation is interrupted by framing every 16 inches.
The framing is visible from the interior. So, any problems (moisture, mildew, insects, rot) are more likely to be open to view as they get started, rather than completely hidden inside a wall cavity.
Because the timbers can span long distances, you get a big room without any posts or load-bearing walls interrupting the open space.
Finally, the structure usually is put together with traditional wood joinery (pegged mortise and tenon joints, dovetails etc). In a world fully of cheap crappy mass-produced junk, it's nice to introduce a little craftsmanship into your life.
Who'd you have do the frame?
What species of wood?
What brand of SIP's?
How are you detailing the pipes and mechanicals?
>> Who'd you have do the frame?Timberpeg. I'm more or less familiar with several others including Woodhouse and Bensonwood. They all seem to deliver a similar frame product but with different packaging strategies.TP's interaction with me has been almost entirely through a local independent rep. Excellent at answering/coping with my many, many questions throughout the long process.>> What species of wood?Eastern White Pine. It's widely available in the NE & mid-Atlantic. I prefer the look to SYP though I know of at least one company that offers a kiln-dried SYP product that would be worth considering. I like the look of Doug Fir even better but it's more expensive here.The EWP can be pretty sappy, susceptible to mold and lots of checking. So, on-site storage can be an issue.>> What brand of SIP's?No SIPs, am using TP's "wrap and strap" system. Sort of a do-it-yourself SIP approach. A little cheaper (I think), slower to install, with a little loss of energy efficiency. The first layer of this package is 7/8" pine T&G, though I suppose I could have ordered drywall. Then 6 mil poly, then polyiso foam boards, then strapping that forms a drain plane, then CVG cedar.>> How are you detailing the pipes and mechanicals?Radiant hydronic heating, 1/2" PEX tubing inside a 4" concrete slab over foam insulation and crushed stone. So there is no ductwork at all to contend with. I have not committed to a heat source yet (water heater or gas boiler or solar)Have not decided whether to install AC. Am considering a high-velocity system (SpacePk/Unico) to eliminate or minimize ductwork, or possibly a Japanese mini-split. Electric lines will run (mostly) through baseboard chases. The also can run through the cavities formed by the strappiing behind the siding. Plumbing supply lines will be PEX, run through baseboard or cabinet chases.
Sort of like owning a Harley......
If I had to explain, you wouldn't understand.
THE best answer I've read so far
A well built and designed one is far stronger than a typical stick frame, but they are more expensive and have some peculiar difficulties to deal with
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Piffin,
What sort of difficulties are you speaking about? I know a few but am always interested in learning..
Fewer locations to run wires and plumbing mainly.Sound reduction between floors is another issue I run into.When somebody wants to add on or remodel, there are limitations where details have to work around the existing frame.
A well known fat actress bought a timberframe here, proclaiming loudly and enthusiastically, "I love this house and everything about it!"
Then she immediately set about changing almost everything in it. The contractor who got the job had to educate her about not putting a window right there where that post is already...Things like that
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Piffin,
OH I see! I hadn't even considered the limitations those timber have in remodeling.. I was thinking about the required maintinace. How you should tap pegs loose during the spring and tight in the fall for adjusting to wood shrinking and swelling according to weather. I was also thinking about things like during the early years while the timbers are still drying how they will pop or crack loudly in the middle of the night untill the timbers dry out completely.. or that checks that appear do not weaken the timber but are a natural part of timbers drying cycle..
I couldn't imagine that timbers would greatly increase sound transmission over a stick built home.. sound wise joints are poor at transmitting sound thru them.
"How you should tap pegs loose during the spring and tight in the fall for adjusting to wood shrinking and swelling according to weather"are there major consequences when someone ignores doing this? or just cosmetic?I have to wonder if every TF owner even knows about that required maintenance let alone does itroughly how many pegs in your place and how long does it take to do it?
Edited 9/2/2007 7:17 am ET by misfit
misfit,
Wood swells and shrinks based on moisture content. traditional pegs are usually a tapered fit and thus timbers shrunken from a winter of low moisture will swell up as the humidity of summer occurs..
Farmers used to do it spring and fall. Amish farmers still practice it, the rest have either gone to pole barns or something other than timberframes.
What can happen is the wood will start to check at the peg holes (that's a normal part of the drying process) and that check will gradually widen if the peg was installed tight when the wood was dry.
Some builders get around that by giving the pegs one last whap before turning the the frame over to the rest of the subs.. since it can take a decade or more for a timber to fully dry that means most timberframes loosen as they age.. so the pegs are a little loose and the wood will creak and squeak some. Usually it's no big deal.(again most timberframes are massively over built)
However in the event the timbers are reclaimed wood and completely dry, or the timers were sent to the microwave kiln in (I think it's Virginnia), or somehow fully dried and the traditional solid whap is done the pegs will actaully start to split the timber as wood swells during the summer..
That will result in a loose connection which some kind timberframer will remedy with another solid whap and cause the wood to split further.. etc. etc.
For differant reasons than that issue I used pins rather than pegs in my connections.. In Europe timberframes are required to have metal pins as a connection rather than wooden peg.. The reason is in a fire the first failure is the pin and when the pin fails the timber falls. Firefighters in Europe are trained about the durability of timberframes in a fire and have relied on their strength too long resulting in injuries and death..
To prevent that from happening Eurpoean timberframes use metal pins with wooden plugs over them. The wooden plug gives added fire protection and modern european timberframes have to burn for hours before any structural failure occurs..
In my grandfathers barn we used to spend a rainy afternoon tapping pegs spring and fall. The actual tapping took maybe a minute or so per timber but climbing around to get to the point where you could whap it properly might take a bit. I know just how hard to tap to budge a peg the approax 1/4 inch required.. IT worked because grandfathers barn is still standing nearly a century and a half since it was built.. That in spite of a tornado which witnesses said actaully hit it in 1965
I would venture that almost no timberframe owners are told about this chore.
thanks for the lesson. your GF's barn must be quite the structure to survive a tornado. got any pictures of it?based on what you said it appears that the pins would be better left alone than be adjusted by someone inexperienced.
Misfit,
No pictures, Last time I was there (about 15 years ago) I spoke to the guy who owns it. He'd replaced the orginal wooden shingles with aspault because it was starting to leak.. What he didn't know was that all the roof decking was oak and he just nailed the shingles on. He was surprised that all the original shingles had been put on with wooden pegs. When I told him it had been built sometime prior to the civil war he was really surprised..
As for sturcture yeh.. typically timbers in barns are 10 even 12 feet apart.. This was built 4 foot on center.
there are a great mant timber frame structures here that once built the pegs were never adjusted or much of anything else...
some of them go back before the LA purchase...
that alone speaks for it's self...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
untouched for a couple hundred years? wowwhat keeps the tapered pegs from popping loose as in falling out? was glue ever used to hold a peg?I keep thinking about nail pops and wonder why the pegs don't do the samefriction?
how do Post & Beam and Timber Frame differ?
or are they considered the same?
misfit,
post and beam is when you use metal connections rather than mortice and tenion joinery.
My home is a hybred of both because I use mortice and tenion joinery but my "pegs" are metal covered (or will be) with a short wooden peg..
prior to asking I googled P&B and found it uses pegged mortise and tenon joints.so it appears there are substantial similarities between the two as far as basic construction is concerned or did I misunderstand something?when you say metal connections do you mean something like Simpson strong ties?
misfit,
to most people the use of any large timbers is timberframed, however purists insist that no metal connection be used to call it timberframed. Europeans combine the two, connections are made using tradional joinery work but instead of wooden pegs they are using metal rods covered with wooden "pegs"
Post and beam is sort of like really big Simpson connectors are used but do not require tradional joinery techniques such as mortice and tenon. instead beams are litterly connected by bolts and such.
misfit..
yeh! it's friction.
Typically the pegs (called "treenails" or "trenels") are very dry when installed and the beams are still a bit green. In addition, the holes in the mortises are usually bored in a slightly different location than the holes in the tenons. This draws the joint tightly together when the treenail is driven in. Then the beam shrinks slightly as it dries and locks things in place pretty solidly. It won't come apart.George Patterson
Did anyone catch the 6 o'clock news ? Habitat For Humanity to only build timber frame homes.
Well they are cheaper you know and give places for pigs to land and rest their wings.
Precisely....driving tapered pegs in a frame must be something new. I offset all mine and they haven't wiggled in 10 years. (Tapered wooden pegs are the stuff used for coarse tuning of violins, chellos, etc).
To Pif's point, one does have to taper the leading end a bit to get through the offset.
Edited 9/4/2007 1:30 am by Notchman
Notchman,
When wood dries it shrinks. The hole doesn't shrink does it?
Remember that solid thunk you gave the pegs as you turned the frame over to the subs? if you build with green timbers go back after a decade and give those pegs that same solid thunk, tell me they didn't move.
If you always build with dried wood then of course you don't need to take that into consideration do you?
ahh now I see and that alot of makes sense. the pegs are always under tension so to speak.I was thinking along the lines that if both the peg and the timbers had the same moisture content why didn't they shrink-swell at the same ratethanks
"what keeps the tapered pegs from popping loose as in falling out?"It is called friction.A M&T joint is cut and drilled so that the holes do not quite line up. A peg has to be tapered to get it started and as it is driven, it pulls the joint more tightly together. once it is all the way home, there is too much tension for the joint to move or for the peg to work loose.
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if the joint wracks that much to loosen the pins....
maybe somebody should get out from under that roof....Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Drawboring only works in green timber with green pegs. If you try it in a KD doug fir frame with dry white oak pegs you have a recipe for huge blowouts. If you try and drawbore every joint in a KD frame you probably just compromised the structural integrity of your frame because you are going to have to ream out your tenons.Anyways, glad to see Piffin and frenchy jump on me about my comment early on in this thread that most aspects of modern timberframes are structurally redundant. Of course, this was a gross generalization and obviously not true in every case, and yes, frenchy, I realize that timberframes can create open spaces that are tougher to achieve otherwise.I stand by my statement though, that MANY timberframe and partial timberframes built today are strictly for decoration. There are whole developments of 15 million dollar houses (e.g. The Yellowstone Club in Big Sky, MT) that you would think are timberframed, but guess what? There are huge steel moment frames in there that are covered up by "timberframes" that are in fact hollowed out to fit around the moment frames.There are lots of timberframes with ICF walls, so tell me, what exactly are the wall systems doing besides providing decoration and possibly some slight bearing and/or shear for the roof system?So whatever, I love timberframes, have cut lots of them, and I hope to live in one someday. But let's not be delusional about them. And I SERIOUSLY question their longevity when wrapped in two layers of OSB (ala SIPs) whose longevity is yet to be proven. And frency, you are still smoking crack about steel pegs.
jesse,
Tell the Europeans that then please.. I can think off hand of two articles in Fine Home Building alone that speaks about the subject. Not to mention a lot of other publications I've purchased over the years..
I like wooden pegs, heck I have some great memories of climbing over the timbers tapping or loosening pegs, while Grandpa commented about me being a regular timbermonkey.. It's part of the romance of timberframing as far as I'm concerned..
Yet if you put a timber joint in a fire the first failure will be the pegs/trenails etc. when they fail the timber will come down (as long as gravity works)
As for your comment that timberframes are redundant.. Absolutely! The best built barns stand the longest. The reason for the durability of all of those European timberframes isn't because those timbers were the minimum you could use to make a building stand up, instead they were far more than what was required. That surplus strength came into play when the unexpected, unatticipated happened (like world wars)
It is reported that a tornado directly hit my grandfathers barn once. Yet the barn ramains standing to this day.. Maybe because unlike others my great grandfather built his barn like the German he was, over built.. most barns have timbers (bents) at 10 or even 12 foot centers.. This barn had bents built 4 foot on center.. (as does my home in tribute to him)
Jesse, I can't tell how much of your comments are envy or what they are.. You keep talking about how the wealthy do this and the wealthy do that... Then what about me? My best years I earned less than most contractors do. (I see their incomes on credit apps) By any stretch of your imagination I'm a middle class working guy..I will admit My values however aren't typical. Yet I own a timberframe.
I give up a lot of things to own one, is it really about showing off? Am I showing off by working hour after hour when most people my age are starting to take it easy and prepare for retirement? All covered with dirt from construction for 14 hours how does that equate to showing off? Sweat pouring down my forehead, armpits reeking of oder is somehow a status symbol? I own a ten year old pickup and don't play golf or go to bars or clubs. I'm at home working on the timberframe or I'm out making a living. There's not a lot to be jealouse of there..
I have many years of work left before the interior of the house will be finished. right now and for the past 6 years you've had to crawl all over construction equipment, wood and supplies to get anyplace. How is that something to envy? I'll be near retirement age when the interior is finally finished just about that time I'll need to go outside and do maintinance such as revarnishing wood or dealing with other items neglected during construction..
We know that SIP's are durable.. How? because the foam that is their main ingrediant is nearly indestructable in landfills. When the enviornmentalists get upset over coffe cups how do you think they feel about foam in general? Let's assume that somehow the OSB failed (by the way each new OSB plant that comes on line brags about how they make a better product) so what? at very worst you remove the SIP and replace it.. the frames remain.. In actaulity most OSB is safely sandwiched between the beams and exterior.
frenchy, no need to be so defensive. Your house kicks ####. It's awesome how much work you have put into it. Good for you and your family, obviously that house will be worth a f(*#&@ mint when it's all done on Minnetonka. I'm not talking about you. I'm not talking about the DIY'er. That guy would never have asked the questions that started this thread.My whole point was this: timberframes are just like any other high end building material/method/concept: they have NO value if you don't appreciate them, that's all. Now go get back to work on that house, winter is coming. :)
jesse,
Truer words were never spoken. Alternative building methods have no value at all if you do not appreciate them..
Hoefully the exterior of the house will be finished by this weekend, I'm down to trim work and putting shingles on the portico.
> That surplus strength came into play when the unexpected,
> unatticipated happened (like world wars)My father was in one of those timber-frame farmhouses when a German mortar (Nebelwerfer) round landed on the fender of a tank destroyer parked behind the house. Blew out the entire wall. Nobody could see 6" because of the dust cloud. Barely scratched the frame. When they moved on, the house was still standing.George Patterson
note to self - move the tank destroyer a bit further around behind the house.;)
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Note to mortar aimer; shift over about 10'. :-)George Patterson
rotflmao>>> timbermonkeydon't worry I'm not laughing at you. it's the name that did it. I'll remember that one for sure and may use it someday too. I know someone that would fit that name perfectly
Tell teh Europenas what? They have not built anything with anything other than steel and concrete for half a century.
DoRight,,
Others are correct. You come on post stuff of which you no absolutely nothing in an attempt to stir up a fight.
Please get a life and stop wasting others time.
NO stirring necessary, you and Piffin have it all covered.
It was you, my friend, who is that antagonist. It is you who first belittled. I was just pointing out the obsurity of your claim of timber frame being the cheapest of all building methods. The lunacy of that statement was just too tasty to let go with out pointing it out. And I mirely pointed it out. Then you attack the messenger out of your embarassment. Then Piffin called you on the same carpet and you did not like that either.
What can I say?
If people take the time, and really read a thread, there is always a shot of arrogance first accros my bow. Then if I reply, they take exception. What can I say?
And frenchy, you say " You come on post stuff of which you no absolutely nothing ..."
I know and everyone on this board knows that timber framing is hardly cheap! That is all that I have ever posted on this thread! I know nothing? Now I am laughing.
How embarassing for you. Timber frames cheapest form of building, LOL!!!!!!
DoRight,
I carefully explained exactly why it's cheap and gave you a source for the prices I posted.. Further I've posted pictures of my home, my timberframed home under construction for your satisfaction..
You on the other hand have done nothing except wine and bitch like a little girl. The amount of demonstrated knowledge you've shared with this post wouldn't cause a knat to blink it's eye.
Please either grow up or go someplace elese.
Frenchy, you have been an As from the start. And you are one.
Read your very first post to me. Was that a nice post? I don't think anyone would say it was. It might not have been terribly nasty, but it was not a nice post. On the other hand my first post to you was a very kind and inquirying post. Then you take it from there. Look in a mirror. Oh, and your horse's end personality is not limited to expressions to me. Look at post 24, again you are an arrogant horse's, calling the guy buddy. Read the tone!
As for your posted costs? Laughable at best, irrelevent in the least. Ask anyone else on any thread here if timber framing is a cheap construction techique. I rest my case, but your just continue in your arrogance and demeaning and nastiness.
Just the facts, buddy. You do like being referred to as buddy, right?
Jesse, Excellent, excellent, realistic, post!
I'm guessing there must be a calculation based on the size of the timber that dictates the offset placement for the peg holes between each piece? or is it just some number like 1/4" that is used through out?
I think 3/16" but others can say more on that. i've watched, hjelped and read, but not the guy doing it so I don't know for sure.Earlier Jesse I think pointed out that this is only done in green timbers and not KD.I didn't know anyone built these with KD.But it stands to reason then that timbers that are partially dried would need less offset than fully green ones, based on the fact they are halway to the same stability as KD. By the same reasoning, a timber that is twice as larger would shrink more and maybe want more offset, up to a limit.But I think the main reason for not using offset with KD would be that the edge grain itself has less compressibility where it all snugs together, not the amt of shrinkage it will endure in the future.I see something similar with coped corners on log homes. Dry logs require more precise carving of the notch, while green logs allow for some self-correction as the wood compreses together.
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Piffin,
The use of recycled wood which is already dried is a whole area of timberframing. Tedd Benson is a strong advocate of it.. Timbers may have been drying for 50 years or more. Often they are recovered from older wooden structures torn down to make way for other uses such as old canneries or here in Minneapolis the old armory where a lot of the munitions of WW2 were made.. Plus lots of old torn down barns etc.
In addition there is a company, I think it's called Sun Dried Structures In Virginnia (I think) that has a giant microwave oven where timbers are dried overnight.
So dried timber use isn't all that uncommon.
those timber still have offset holes for the pegs
You are correct in that the amount of offset is determined by the size of the timbers, the wood type, and the postion in the structure.
Some people use just one offset say 1/4 inch for everything while others have a sense for how much offset is called for based on all of the above plus the time of year.. (I know, but it really stands to reason. If a green timber is going up and going to be enclosed and heated in a few months you'll need more offset than one that may take a year or more to enclose and heat)
"sound wise joints are poor at transmitting sound thru them."Especially bad fitting joints. The worse the joint is, the more transmission loss. Structure-borne, it'll be pretty good at transmitting it but if it's incident sound, it'll die out fairly quickly if it hits a panel since sound isn't great at changing directions. If the two sides of the panel are separate and insulated, it won't be so much like a drum head.
You have more photos?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh,
The exterior should be finished this weekend so I'll take some at that point..
By finished, I don't mean that all the details will be complete . I need to acid wash the stone work.( I'll wait the thirty days for the mortor to reach it's full strength) I need to varnish the walnut, but it was green this spring and timbers take a couple of years to dry ,, the pegs won't get installed this year either..
But the lawn is coming in nicely, I'll have planted the shrubs, I've even put some walnut shavings around one of my raised beds as a ground cover.. Aw heck the punch list should keep me busy for several weeks but by the time snow flies (which could be any week since we are speaking of Minnesota after all)...
Gang,
Thanks for all the insight and great feedback. Some of you really know the subject. And I can easily see why you would want to own a timberframed house and brag about it. I'd even wish I had the time and money to take one of those hands on training courses where they teach you how to build one, I bet that would be fun.
Mike,
Please don't let the lack of time or money keep you from your dream.. My sawmill will sell you a 9"x7" 8 1/2 foot timber out of virtually any hardwood for $22.00
shipping it to wherever you are shouldn't be terribly expensive or you might find a local sawmill that will sell you such a timber They are future railroad ties and that is the market price for them..
It won't take much equipment if you are willing to do this with hand tools. A handsaw, a sharp big chisel and a drill and you can practice to your hearts content making joints and connections.. Buy Jack Sorebies (sp) book about timberframing and have at it..
If you like this, you can buy used power tools for about half of original cost and really wize thru making joints..
I tell you this because I'd never attended a timberframing school, nor did I have any real home building experiance prior to building this place..
This really isn't hard or expensive.. it does take time but it's some very satisfying time where you feel empowered and relaxed.. there's nothing like making wood chips to take stress away!
(ps the real secret is learning how to sharpen tools, really sharp tools just whisper thru wood )
>>My sawmill will sell you a 9"x7" 8 1/2 foot timber out of virtually any hardwood for $22.00Frenchy, where abouts is that?
Do you know if that is a typical price at mills in your region?
Tom.
There is a weekly perodical called the Hardwood Market Report published in Memphis Tennesse hwr.com or 901-767-9126 it gives prices paid at the mill for all hardwoods. Most of the sawmills I visit get a copy of it and use it as a guild line for setting their prices..
The currant price quoted in southern areas for a 9 foot tie is 19.00 to 21.00 each while an 8 1/2 foot tie is 18.25-21.25 southern appalachain prices are 18.50-21.00 for an 8 1/2 foot Northern Appalachain is 50 cents less.
It's also the market price for northern hardwoods.
Right now a lot of ties are made from Ash which is currantly flooding in..
The price on ash has dropped so deeply that if given free ash My sawmill won't take it.. the boards off ash logs virtually have no market and sawyers can't even recover their costs on #1 grade boards.. If I wanted to build a timberframe I'd start talking right now to sawmills about buying ash trees...
Frenchy,I'm surprised ash is so cheap. I always liked it. I guess it's one of the first woods I learned to recognize (from baseball bats, of course), and our dining table is made from it. There's a fair amount of it growing around here (Applachian Maryland). Can you think of any down side to timber framing with ash?
I'd expect it to make a nice strong frame, but maybe not so rot resistant?
That's an issue for a one-person DIY job because it'd be open to weather for a long time and where I'm thinking of building is on the north side of our house.
Tom
What's dropping the price of ash is the green ash borer which is killing our ash forests.. While it hasn't reached Minnesota yet the Ash that's either dead or dying is driving prices down.
It won't be as rot resistant as white oak or black walnut is but timbers used in American homes are usually used inside the house where decay resistance isn't important.
The normal process for building a DIY timberframe is you do the joinery work and when it's all ready you erect it. Hopefully with some friends who share the joy with you..
White oak which is extremely decay resistant is around 80 cents per bd.ft for mill run.. If you E mail me the size of what you are thinking of building I'll give you a rough idea of the cost of the timbers involved..
You don't need to give me plans or anything just rough estimates of the size or area..
Maybe you can post some pictures of the timberframe you're building, that would be great.
85891.1
The big thing that timber framing does is allow you to separate the loadbearing frame from the shell. This innovation, using steel and concrete, was what revolutionized architecture at the turn of the last century. It is largely what allowed all the other features we associate with modern architecture. It provides for uninterrupted areas of glass and frees the plan from structural considerations.
Stick framing using regular centres and modular sheathing components is a simple, inexpensive and ingenious way to build. You just have to work that much harder to make a stick built house sing in the way timber frames can.
>>The big thing that timber framing does is...This is the first post in this thread to prick up my ears.In my context, which is the Japanese one, there are structural design advantages to timberframe over techniques like stick built or the traditional postframe construction. I think this may be to some extent due to backwardness in the building code. For instance, timberframe can satisfy the seismic requirements under code just using wooden pegs, and not even metal ones, and moreover all the other metal ties and hold-downs that are obligatory for traditional postframe or stick built are unnecessary. As a result, you can have a nice-looking revealed frame without all the ugly bolt heads and metal ties that would otherwise stick out.If one is willing to extend the definition of timberframe to include Eurostyle glulam plus metal connector, then the structural design possibilities extend much, much further, while in the meantime satisfying sustainability concerns. That is, with the proper kind of connectors (and the right structural engineering software) you can pretty much build anything out of this stuff that you could build out of structural steel. It’s more lightweight, it has better wind and seismic resistance, it’s more fireproof—on balance it just plain scores higher than steel, and at a lower cost.Using sawn lumber, Japanese engineers like to stress that you cannot do a structural calculation that is other than an approximation. In other words, for a proper structural calculation with any precision, the guaranteed uniformity of strength, dryness, etc., of engineered wood is required. And the levels of precision afforded by engineered wood allows you to fine tune and balance your structure much better, with a result of yet better structural performance. Better evolutionary/convertibility possibilities, etc.Our building code rewards this by allowing one to build much higher and with much more glass and fewer sheer walls than one could ever build with postframe or stick.
If you don't get it, then you probabley won't. Does sound like you
have an open mind though. Longevity my man. We live in a world
of cheap and fast. A disposible society, out with the old and in with the
new. That timber frame will last for centuries. That doesn't mean much
to most people theses days. Really sad in my eyes. Anyway. Good Luck.