Does anyone have any idea where I could find resource material on estimating the time it takes to complete the tasks associated with building/construction? I can do pretty well on certain things but not so well on others. I would also like to know if I’m in the ballpark with my competitors. Thank You.
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you'll probably never know how you do against your competitors.. because tehy don't know either..
as to a good source.. you're the best source.. no one else does things like you . start keeping records and go back to them when you estimate
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Sorry I didn't thank you sooner, but I'm not on line that often. You're probably wondering what the hell I'm talking about. It was a message I posted on 12/11 about estimating jobs and you took the time to reply. For that I say thanks, it was most helpful.
Spoonbit
RS Means : Most of their time figures are low, I think, especially for trimwork, but it is a good starting point.
DGARRISON409,
This is a thanks for replying to a question I submitted on12/11. I don't use the computer that often so the time delay, but thanks again.
Spoonbit
Since you know you have a problem estimating in some areas says you're probably better at it than your competitors. I agree with Mike Smith your own experience and detailed records are your best resource.
I put a roofing job out to bid with 3 contractors and the results came back $5000.00,$7700.00, and $10000. I went with the $7700.00 bid because he was much more detailed in his proposal about the work to be done.
A recent heating and a/c job on my new house was bid by 2 contractors and they were within $200.00 of each other.
It always seems that the higher the ratio of labor to material the bigger the spread of pricing from contractor to contractor which tells me they're not sure of labor costs or some are just testing to see what traffic will bear.
Generally the big dogs in the industry have it down to a science. Some better some worse.
I worked for GM Delco in IE doing time studies. GM was reasonable, thinking of time per hundred parts with breaks, days off, part presentation, weight of part, workspace design all planned and overall efficiency of the employee being studied. Their methods, from the 431 minutes available per day, to the accumulated sample times in records created "standards for work"
Allen Bradley was over the top using MTM. This is into eyeblinks, micro weighing, fractions of inches of reach, etc. Like most myopic methods they ignore large things. such as theoretically it took the same amount of time to have 1 person make 1 part with 80 pieces as it takes to have 8 people each put 10 parts in the same product in assembly line fashion. If that is true then Henry Ford was a dope and his assembly lines made no financial sense.
Labor estimates depend on small ideas.
first is the amount of time available to work. Jawing, driving, picking up parts, negotiating with a customer, and training all have a cost. Don't ignore the time spent not producing product. You as manager may be overhead but the workers need to be presented consise instruction and have easy access to all materials.
Second plan your setup. Getting going and stopping for the day are unproductive time. You have to be concerned about this labor time unless you are making so much profit that it doesn't matter. so make a plan and enforce it. Lunches, breaks, startup, and cleanup are where the 431 minutes / day GM used comes from.
Third is how smart you work. Having a drywall taper walk down the ladder for a scoop of mud on his knife would double the time on the job. Buy him a hawk and he'll fly. Schedule the taping for after the carpet is installed and you get into rework or protection issues. Old boss at Delco used to say "Sometimes the most expensive tool is the cheapest to use". This is your creative edge that and planning will be your most controllable expenses / profits.
You have to clear up these three. If you don't you are fooling yourself that you are doing productive labor.
Finally After clearing up all of that stuff you can do a time study. There are 2 ways to do it. One is count the square of roof, (valley, tarpaper, shingles, trim, etc. ) (example) and attach a clocked time to the square laid on a sunny day on a 4/12. (Job based) This is most accurate if you keep track of each and every job that needs be done. Drywall measure in square feet considering ceiling heights & specials, foundations in perimeter feet, etc
(Material based.) Count sheets of plywood on a floor, 2x4's in a house, etc. Find a unit and attach a labor time to it. (this is slightly more dangerous and is more efficient the larger the project) Yards of concrete, square feet of DW, etc
SWAG (Scientific Wild dupA Guess) I used to (this is electrical enclosure wiring manufacturing) count the doors on large enclosures and figure 20 hours per door. The components mounted inside the labeling wiring etc determined how much labor was required. Counting doors was pretty irresponsible? Not if you estimate 20 jobs a week and you've done them before. The only thing that makes SWAG work is record keeping. As much as you don't want to know, you need to know if you made a profit and what kind of labor was spent. Keep a separate book. I had several methods of estimate (some never used as a quotation method ie counting the sheets of schematics, weighing the drawings, etc.) In general the larger the job the more loose the estimate package. Repetition does count. It can drop your labor 10 to 18 percent or more. Experience counts for a lot in reducing labor.
You need to clean up the workplace, otherwise everyone will buy your tools at auction. <G>
Last thought. Pulte and the other big dogs in the home building industry must have time standards. Not that you want to be that efficient / mercenary but the bench mark is there if you can find old horses put to pasture that know the numbers. ;-)
Edited 12/12/2002 8:11:12 AM ET by Booch
Excellent post, Booch. Sounds like you could write a book! ;)
Regards,
Ragnar
If I wrote a book it would be night time reading. Time studies could try the patience of a Yoga master.
Thanks for the prop.
One thing that helps, when everyone gets squirrely as you start looking at your watch and them at the same time, is if you wear your watch backwards. That is on the underside of your wrist. By putting your watch there you can twist your wrist to see the start time and the stop. If it is normally on your wrist you have to kick out your elbow to get the watch pointed tword your face. It tips people off and messes them up.
Time study methods in the big world of OEM's is a proprietary product with custom clipboards, software and binders of definitions. BAD mojo there. Those packaged programs are great for big business where the work in Singapore has to be timed the same as in Chicago. They need consistancy and to take the time study person out of the equation. Not so with a business of less than 100 people.
So who worked for Pulte and knows the scoop on the standards? I think that is what the poster originally asked. You want control panel or PCB assembly I can help. Building wiring and all the other skills are beyond my experience.
Theoretically, Building wiring could be estimated by measuring the lengths of all of the wired walls in a home. The outlets need to be every 6 foot don't they? all go to the load center. Figure the wire, outlets, drilling, pulling, connections, testing, etc. Make a study of the total wall length to the labor. If you do it over 3 houses, you could say that it costs 5.50/ lineal foot for labor. Plus the cost of materials (house wire duplexes, nuts, tape, bits & blades, Load center, breakers) amortized over the outlets in the house. Say it was 30 dollars per outlet for materials. 30/6 = $5.00 material cost per foot. so 5.50 for labor, 5 for materials the net manufactured cost is 10.50 per foot of live wall. The customer looks like a guy with deep pockets so you say I want a 35% margin for the work I do.
10.50/.65 (35 percent margin) = 16.15 per live wall foot.
After you do it once examine your job and see if you made 35%. If so then the rest of your estimates will involve only taking a ruler to the plans and calling back two days later with the price. (you want them to think you worked at it don't you?) Plus it equips you to make that standing in front of the customer estimate without getting hosed or laughed at.
I'll stop now.
Booch,
You're a better man than I. I posted a question on job estimating on 12/11 and just got around to reading the answers I received. Yours was by far the most comprehensive and helpful. I'm sorry it took so long for me to get back to say thanks for taking the time and initiative to be so thorough (sp?). Again you've been most helpful, and I offer my humble thanks.
Spoonbit
Just add two weeks to every job
You don’t complete your inner work before you do your outer work. Nor do you say, "Well, the hell with the inner work: I’ll go do the outer work because it’s so important and pressing." That’s not conscious either. The conscious thing is the simultaneous doing of both. "Ram Dass"
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Well hallelujia! Mike S said the first thing on my mind, and DG409 said the 2nd. You really are the only source which is right for you. Means has a lot of data, and they update it regularly, so if you're really out on a limb say you've never hung sheetrock, ok, Means might get you closer to the ballpark on what to expect there. But sure don't build a bid on just some price guides cost line. I agree their prices on trim are way way too low. They list putting a window in for something like $30. Yeah, ok. If all I have to do is shoot ten framing nails in it and walk, sure, but not to hang it right.
"There is always inequity in life. Some men are killed in war and some men are wounded, and some men never leave the country. Life is unfair" J.F.Kennedy