since my buddy, Barry is no longer doing our copper work… I decided to see if one of the guys wanted to learn the trade….
Chuck said he’d like to give it a try… mostly what we need is things like thru-flashing for chimneys, some other specialty flashings..
some copper gutter work…
anyways, i bought Barry’s torch and his 24″ brake… and gave Chuck some scrap
he’s progressing… here’s his first homework.. a simple solder.. which .. as anyone who’s tried it.. knows there is nothing simple about it, especially with sheet stock
in his other hand is his final test.. a section of copper ogee gutter… to see if he can make a mitered leader box…with a copper outlet..
anyone have any recommendations for a good tin-knocking book….. ?
Edited 11/21/2005 11:46 pm ET by MikeSmith
Edited 11/21/2005 11:46 pm ET by MikeSmith
Replies
Are you using just a torch?or a heated iron on a torch head?
There's a good DVD out that shows soldering and esp. vertical soldering techniques. http://www.bbsheetmetal.com
heated iron on a torch head..
BTW... Barry was a slateman also..
thanks for the link Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I looked thru my bookcase and I realized out of the 50 or so books I've got on the subject, I've learned very little from them. Most of my knowledge has been gathered from working with others. Early in my career, I worked for free for a week with one guy and a month with the other. They both taught me a lot, but most of what I learned from them, I now consider inferior ways to accomplish the task.
I'm friendly with a lot of my competition, and we often trade techniques and secrets. Dale and I constantly come up with a different way to accomplish things. If you've got a good sheet metal cat around, you might consider paying Chuck's wages and getting him an apprentise job. Get him to work a day or two here and there doing something that you guys need, like a thru flash job. I've had numerous people come spend a day in the shop with me.
Stuff like mitering gutter requires a pattern. Buy a store bought miter and take it apart. You got a pattern.
Hell, send him down here for a couple of months. We'll send him back a full grown man.
Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
You know, Grant, I was thinking the same thing.Mike should send Chuck down to work directly with you for a couple weeks. And pay his regular wages.Then if you paid Chuck half-wages, you get the work for half-wages cost. Chuck gets edjumacated. And the half wages should be enough to pay his costs. So if he has family and other obligations for his regular pay, he can still do the workshop trip.
A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of coloured ribbon. - Napoleon Boneparte
And after working with cu, Mike should send Chuck down to work with me for about a month ... while paying his wages of course.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
You got something going that Mike wants Chuck edumicated on ???;o)
America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote.
And after working with cu, Mike should send Chuck down to work with me for about a month ... while paying his wages of course.
Well shoot, if Mike is picking up the check, he might as well send Chuck over this way for a month. He could really kick the project house into gear.
jt8
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close resemblance to the first." -- Ronald Reagan
Mike,
How much call do you get for slate work in your area?
What brand iron set up do you have?
Mine is from ASCO and works great for large areas.In tight spots I still use hand irons of various shapes and sizes that I heat in a plumbers furnace on a 20 lb. propane tank.
Hey Luka... since you're offering up everyone's workers for a cut rate.... I'd like for you to arrange to have seeyou pay Sphere's way up here for a month or two. And when I'm done with him, could you please send Stan Foster over to finish up my stairs?
;)
LOLWell, like I said earlier... what do you have going that CU wants Sphere to learn... Badly enough that he is willing to pay for that education ?You'll have to negotiate with Stan yourself. Being both his own employer and his own employee... I have a feeling, though that you are going to have a really hard time thinking up something for Stan the employee to learn... That Stan the employer is going to be willing to pay for that education...=0)Far as that goes, it looks like you actually want to learn something from both of them... I think in this context, that puts it in your ballpark to pay them their regular salary, plus half again, to cover expenses...In fact you'd probably have to pay CU, and Stan the employer a bit of something extra, to make it worth it to them to be minus their employee for however long you want them for...;o)
America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote.
You caught me. Was hoping I could get a little free tutoring. No go, huh?
I didn't say it was a no-go.You have to negotiate that with the third parties, or whatever party they authorize to negotiate on their behalf.;o)
America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote.
Given that there aren't any worthwhile books on the subject, what you have here is the opportunity to write the one and only classic textbook for copper work. Having a student to educate as part of the process will serve as a way of checking that you don't leave anything important out.
Best of all, how about getting Taunton to front some money for the book project?
-- J.S.
what you have here is the opportunity to write the one and only classic textbook for copper work.
Can't say that hasn't crossed my mind, John. There's lots of info on how to bend stuff, but soldering is similar to bicycle riding. You can describe what it feels like, but the student can't really understand 'til he feels it.
Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
Grant, you really should consider that.My gut tells me you are just the genius to write the perfect book.
America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote.
I'll sign on to proofread.
-- J.S.
Maybe we could start a Taunton Press Breaktime series of how-to books. Grant on copper, Stan on curved staircases, etc, etc...
jt8
"Do not let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do."-- John R. Wooden
Bob Simonson on decks.Yup, that would work.And not unlike the way Taunton already does things.
America is a country which produces citizens who will cross the ocean to fight for democracy but won't cross the street to vote.
boy,oh,boy are some of you eager to reach into greencu's pocket and steal money OUT of it. LOL
If greencu ever writes a book on copper work----hey I am first in line to buy it.
However----what Taunton pays you for articles----believe me financialy---it ain't worth the hassels. ( I have frequently made more in one day than I made from either of my articles----and the articles drag on---and on---and on---endless mandated re-writes etc.---probably works out to about $4/hour or so.
And--- I had several Email conversations with someone who has written a book with Taunton----and that person informs me writing the book ain't worth it money-wise either.
If I can make more money laying shingles----surely greencu makes more money working copper?
Best wishes all, Stephen
And--- I had several Email conversations with someone who has written a book with Taunton----and that person informs me writing the book ain't worth it money-wise either.
That's pretty much what I'd figured. There's about 10 people on this board that might buy one and about 50 elsewhere. It's a narrow subject that's only fascinating to someone who is already fascinated (and alreadsy fairly well educated on it).
If I ever get some spare time, I might give it a go. Until then, if I get any thing I think might be interesting, I'll post it here.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
I would think a DVD would be a ton faster, easier, and also more helpful than a book. 1-day planning maybe a half-dozen half-day shoots on different techniques and your done. The video would be pretty darn basic. You could probably get some film school students to put it together over Xmas or a spring break. Of course talk to Gary katz he appears to have his own video crew for making trim how-to's.
eric
Today it doesn't make sense to shoot or post in anything less than 1080p/24. Do it in LA over hiatus, we can get lots of freebies. ;-)
-- J.S.
A magazine article is a one-time shot, usually. You get your agreed on word- or page-rate, cash the check, and that's usually about it. (Unless you later succeed in selling some of the subsidiary rights the magazine publisher did not pay you for, in which case you can get paid again for the same work by somebody else for only doing minor modifications.)
But you have to look at a book as a long-term investment. If it is what publishers call 'solid back list' material--meaning it will stay in print for many years and keep on selling, albeit slowly--you will keep getting royalty checks for the rest of your life without doing any more work than trotting down to the post office to pick them up.
The money you get up-front with a book contract is called the 'advance'--which is short for 'advance against royalties'. Your book's sales have to earn back that advance before you see any more checks...but if the book remains the standard reference work on a difficult and rare trade, it eventually will do that and keep you in beer and 'backy money until they blow yer torch out for the last time....
Dinosaur
Hold your ground!
I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me....
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
it eventually .will do that and keep you in beer and 'backy money until they blow yer torch out for the last time...
I don't use 'backy anymore. Does that mean I get twice as much beer money?Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
either twice as much cheap beer ...
or same amount of better stuff.
either way ...
win/win!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I meant to ask you at Riverfest if you knew some of my Pittsburg buddies. They're all older than you, but figured there's a slim chance you might have brushed up against one of these guys: Dave Daniels, Dale Asbury, or Mark Minnick. Haven't seen them in a number of years. I'm pretty sure Dave is still in the 'burg, but I'm not sure about the other two.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
any idea what part of town thry were from?
I grew up in the east part of town ... just outside the city limits.
knew a girl from somewhere south of the city named Michelle Minnick.
did yer buddy Mark look like he could have a smoking hot brunette sister?
mighta been related.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I can't remember what 'burb they were from. It was a pretty affluent area. All three were only children. I'm sure after their respective parents got a taste of them, they decided against further procreation. They were all three pretty wild.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
Jeff, I think a pack of smokes cost more than a sixer of cheap stuff.
Joe H
I've used that logic since high school ...
always liked beer ... never smoked.
always said I couldn't afford to ... smoke ... as it's take too much of my beer money.
still don't smoke ... still like beer.
and as the cost of a pack of cig's has risen over the years ... so has the price in my taste of beers! Just saw a case of Corsendonk for $65 and thot ...
why that's a bargain at that price!
but it was the "slum it" case (Miller High Life/ $15.99) ... every other case I slum it or go uptown ...
maybe next weekend ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I don't have the high-brow beer taste some of you guys have. And it's the little things in life that make me happy... like the Thanksgiving sale: $9.99 20pack of Bud bottles. Time to adjust the fridge shelves for longnecks.
jt8
"Do not let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do."-- John R. Wooden
Time to adjust the fridge shelves for longnecks.
You need a fridge with lots of shelves on the door. You can fit about 3 cases of longnecks and a gallon of milk in mine.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
What's the milk for?
Joe H
ulcers I bet...i probly caused him a few..LOL
Hey, after a year of working with Grant, and having good tuteldge, I STILL can't solder a vertical seam worth a damm, without a lot of cussin....it is hard.
One thing not mentioned so far as far as soldering goes....is "strength risers" as Dale showed me. We do a full sweat on the joints, then back track and add a few "stitches" across the seam..kinda raised puddles to add some knit to the seam.
As I understand it from Grant, it is not always needed on a locked joint, but ya can save a call back on a lapped joint.
Like I said, I am still learning, but I have two teachers, one who pays us, and one who I work with daily on roof. I think I'll just do the best I can to please them both..I like paychecks, and I also like "calm" with Dale..he has a temper.
I think that torch rig Gman put in my truck is about 400 bucks..I can't argue with that...I cherish it. I really wish I could solder as fast and well as these two guys, but it really takes awile to get the knack for some of the crazy things we do. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
" Nie dajê siê olÅ“niæ statkami parowymi i kolej¹ ¿elazn¹. Wszystko to nie jest cywilizacj¹. - Francois Chateaubriand (1768 - 1848) "
What's the milk for?
Strong bones.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
Does that mean I get twice as much beer money?
At the price of tobacco now, I think you'd wind up with almost three times as much....
A four-pack of Guinness 20-oz draft-cans costs me $7.25.
A 40-gram pouch of Drum handrolling tobacco costs me $12.95.
Apply the 12.95 to the Guinness and ya get 7 additional cans....
Dinosaur
Hold your ground!
I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me....
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
but if the book remains the standard reference work on a difficult and rare trade, it eventually will do that and keep you in beer and 'backy money until they blow yer torch out for the last time....
And if you can make some friendships with trade/university/vocational instructors, maybe you can convince them to use your book for their classes. At which point you have a steady sale and probably requests for updated editions (wouldn't want the kiddies to be able to sell their books back).
jt8
"Do not let what you cannot do interfere with what you can do."-- John R. Wooden
And if you can make some friendships with trade/university/vocational instructors, maybe you can convince them to use your book for their classes.
Oh, yeah! That's the way to pad your retirement....
Dinosaur
Hold your ground!
I see in your eyes the same fear that would take the heart of me....
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
> There's about 10 people on this board that might buy one and about 50 elsewhere.
If that's really the case, then there's another approach to publishing: Do it yourself, with xerox copies in looseleaf binders. That's been done for a long time for highly specialized academic books, like Trimble's history of motion picture color technology. Sell them for maybe $100 each. Every copy hand numbered and autographed. Treat it as a work in progress, with corrected pages sent out from time to time.
Of course it could get out of hand if the 60 copy estimate is wrong, and you really need thousands..... ;-)
-- J.S.
Yeah, I'm on the same track. I saw a TV prog or heard a radio prog the other day about self publishing. Sounded interesting. Now that that's all worked out, all I have to do is write it.
BTW, you sold your crib yet?Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
> BTW, you sold your crib yet?
We took it off the market. The offers came in way low because it's a work in progress. Those buyers are probably used to rehabbing forclosures, so that's the kind of money they offered. The guys who did the Hitler-bunker reno next door offered $900k, but even that's kinda low, and I just couldn't do that to the neighborhood.
-- J.S.
John, I've spent a hell of a lot more than $100 on books that aren't worth a damn.
How many did you buy before you started your roof?
$100 would be a bargain for the actual how to details of a hand formed copper roof.
Joe H
I don't know jack sh1t about copper work. But I won't let that stop me from having an opinion. ;)
My opinion is that it seems to me that most of what you or I would want to learn from seeyou are the intangibles. The things that would be difficult or even impossible to capture on paper or even a photograph. Some of it would be because it's just a sense of feel, touch, or experience. Some of it would be because that every job is different and when the variables change, the prescription changes.
Seems to me that an awful lot of what makes true craftsmen out of tradesmen is the stuff that just can't be captured in books. A lot of it is experience, for which there is no substitute.
Just my thoughts.
Trunuff, but any hint at all is more than I started with.
No tin roofs here, lots of metal roofing but that isn't the same thing. They're all factory panels with factory trim.
The hand done roof as shown in that old Taunton book is the only real how to out there that I found, and I did a lot of looking.
Joe H
Edited 11/29/2005 11:47 pm by JoeH
Brian,I agree that the foundation is based on experience but the intangibles can sometimes be observed through words and pictures if you know enough of what is going on.I remember an article that Blodgett wrote on installing casing. I've cased a lot of windows so I have a decent foundation but I picked up a few tips from careful study of his article to increase my speed and quality. Did he teach me how to run casing? Of course not, but the collection of small tips can really improve your work.Come to think of it, I also learned a lot from Jim's article on skylight installation. We need more from him.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Good points Jon. I guess I was thinking more about the guy starting from scratch than someone with a good deal of experience. You're right.... Will Holladay's Roof Cutter's Secrets has filled in quite few holes in my roof framing theories, that's for sure.
> How many did you buy before you started your roof?
I bought a few things from CDA, including a video that has a lot about standing seam work, and a bunch of CAD files. A few hundred bucks in all, IIRC.
-- J.S.
Grant, The actual practicalist (new word there) info was an old FHB article that was also reprinted in the taunton Roofs book.
It had a real copper roof done by hand with a few hints on how to do it. The rest of the books don't show sheet for details of how to do it.
My thought is there are a hundred how to solder books, but nothing that shows the details of roofing. How to start, how to bend pans, how to attach them to the roof and to each other. How to treat the edges, the peak ect.
What tools, how to fake the don't have tools. I bought some on Ebay, some here and there. Got one of those godawfulexpensive hand anvils from a buddy of VaTom's.
I've got the FHB with that article (that was a long time ago). Most of the books I've got have ways to lay out a square to round boot, build skylights from scratch, as well as lots of ductwork fabrication layouts.
There's little or nothing about lining box (built in) gutter, which is one of my staples. Also, for instance, VATom and I do standing seam completely different. He makes 2 bends on the ground and does the other three on the roof. I make all 5 on the ground and just have to close them on the roof. It's a difference of tools.
You've got me swinging back toward doing it again-thanks.Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
"You've got me swinging back toward doing it again-thanks."
just to let ya know ... I'd be one more in line for that book ... box gutters being one of the big reasons .... flashing penetrations being the second. Never would see myself trying a full fledge roof ... but some nice touches of copper here and there aroud some slate ... and I'd start spending more time up on a ladder.
dying art around here .. both copper and slating.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
book accompanied by DVD
james
Mike, I have wasted a bunch of money on books & not much to show for it.
Audel's sheetmetal handy book has a lot of patterns and how to draw your own.
http://www.thesheetmetalshop.com/pn/index.php
has some interesting stuff.
I have an old Copper.org book with some good info, but the actual how to do it info just isn't out there.
I think the bottom line is you're mostly on your own unless you run into someone who can show you.
Joe H
With a little practice, anything is possible.
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Edited 11/22/2005 12:18 pm by JoeH