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I’m 8 months along as a kitchen designer with one of the big box stores. I’ve made a few boo-boos that were due to misunderstanding construction. I’ve built houses (post and beam, masonry) and done various construction things but nothing as detailed and picky as kitchen cabinets. Any helpful design hints that would help avoid goofs would be appreciated (my expediter would be estactic!).
Kevin
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What'd ya screw up? Measure tight and remember, they come in measurements of three! And refer yer next coupla customers to me so we're sure it gets done right. Jeff
*Which problem is bothering you: Kitchen design or installation of the mechanicals? Different recommendations can arise. Seriously, tell us the kind of mistakes, or advice cannot really be given.
*Seems the box should do a little more training, so when they sell the complete package, sales/install, and try to push us and the smaller shops outta business they won't end up with egg on they're faces. And Kevin, this is no afront to you. I gotta hand it to you for asking. It's just something that popped into my head after hearing from a potential customer that they decided to go with the depot. Best of luck. There's lotsa tricks and lotsa tips.
*National Kitchen and Bath Assoc. (NKBA) has training maunuals and programs, and a list of guidleines you can download from their website.It's really hard to do good design without knowing a lot about cabinetmaking....that's my opinion. All the hardware, the appliances, and the associated mechanical requirements are a hell of a lot more complicated than they were even a few years ago. Boo boos get real expensive.
*Kevin, how can misunderstanding construction result in boo boos? Do you mean that walls and floors can sometimes be out of plumb/level, or homes don't always get built close enough to plans for you to ship a kitchen? The best design hint I could give you is to do a complete on-site measurement, and bring a level with you.As for the details for kitchen layout, you must know, after eight months, what the appliance opening requirements are, and how to fill off a blind corner, etc, etc.As mentioned before, it is kinda hard to help if we don't know where you are having a problem.
*Well, here are some of the goofs I've made:Ran a line of base cabinets past the end of the soffit not thinking that the wall cabinets stopped at the soffit.Was so intent on fitting a compactor on a wall (the customer was fanatic about it) that I didn't notice that as planned, a countertop would have to be notched so the the oven door would open and that the end of a base and wall cabinet would hang 1.5inches into a doorway.Didn't allow enough space above wall cabinets to install 2.5 inch crown molding (84" ceiling). When the cabinets were moved down to give the crown room, the neat-o appliance garage was too tall.On a counter top that was 10 ft on one side, made a 45 angle, and continued for 6 ft I didn't allow that the 10 ft wall might not be square. The installer scribed the 10 ft chunk to the wall whichmade the corner square. But at the end of the 6 ft counter top I left too small an overhang so the edge of the countertop ended in the middle of the top of the cabinet wall.That's all I can think of right now. As for the boxes pushing the smaller guys out of business, it'll never happen as long as the small guys offer good service. But I've found a lot of people couldn't care less if the finish on their cabinet doors was hand rubbed with 15 coats of bear wax or whatever. They want decent cabinets without sales pressure. We sell tons of the frameless instock cabinets because they're available *today.* You might go tour an assembly line cabinet maker. They have jigs for everything. MDF or "engineered" particle board are kings.Gotta go. Hope this helps.Kevin
*Yep, they're kings alright, right up to the point of the warranty running out and the doors fall off the cabinets. Just about to the point that the things don't fit all that great. And juuuust about the point that someone sees what a real set of cabinets from a quality builder looks like, fits like, and LASTS like. Yep, particle board cabinets are king.
*Hate to not be helpful, but isn't anyone else a little troubled by the fact that depot's making money by using somebody who they obviously haven't trained and isn't ready for the job and people here are willing to help do depot's job?Kevin, screw up all you want, so that the poor schmucks will have to go out and find a real cabinet maker and installer who knows what they're doing. Or else, let the customer get what they pay for.And if you really want to learn, then do it the same way everyone else does. Work for someone who knows, keep your mouth shut and your ears open, and think hard before you do anything.Actually, maybe I'm not as unhelpful as I thought.SHG
*During your break time (I made a funny) wander on over to that huge book rack that all Home Depots have and pick up a few how-to books on cabinetry. You can read them for free. They even have some that are published by Taunton Press.The Big Box designers I have had contact with just sit at the computer and input from data collected by someone else sent to the customers home to take the measurements. If some of your errors are because you relied on inaccurate input then either get someone else who knows how to take measurements or do it yourself. There's nothing like being there to avoid spec'g a countertop that projects a couple of inches into a doorway. Sometimes, what should fit, is not even your fault but you could be the hero if you can catch a goof early. It's embarrassing, and costly, to a builder who has to tear out a finished bathroom (rock, framing, plumbing, electrical, etc.) because the framer put the plate on the wrong side of the line.
*Boy, I must of stepped on a few toes with my comments about particle board cabinets and the depot. My place was built in 1981 of "builder's" special cabinets, particle board sides and all and are still straight and square. We're replacing them because we don't like the flat panel oak doors, not because they're "falling apart."As far as depot making money off of people who aren't trained, I guess none of the small companies involved in these discussions has ever made money while using an apprentice who was new to the trade, right? And had to pay for this new guy's mistakes? And these wizened veterans never make a mistake themselves even after 20 years in the business, eh?In fact, when I worked at Sears selling appliances, we had 2 weeks of "training" then were thrown on the floor as commissioned sailsmen. One of the newbys asked the training person why only two weeks since there were many costly errors possible. Sears figured that it was less costly to pay for newby mistakes than to spend dollars on weeks of training.We have a excellent installer but 95% of the customers want to do their own install. Some people don't have an extra thou or two sitting in their accounts for a professional install job. And why should they need such when they're installing 10 cabinets in a simple kitchen?Yes, I've read the "free" cabinetry books available and seen the install videos. They helped a lot. Look, I admit my stupid mistakes as a brand new designer. I asked for tips to help me not make more mistakes in the future. I think it's great that you "fine cabinet makers" have a market for solid wood cabinets with hand polished hinges and 1/32 inch tolerances and hand cut tenons and such. I couldn't afford such cabinets and neither could most of my customers. I'm sorry that particle board is king and fine carpentry isn't, but that's just the way it is.Kevin
*Hi. I recently installed a kitchen in the house I completely gutted and renovated. In a city not too far from where I live, there is a Despot and an Ickea in the same plaza. Of course I checked out both. I found that Ickea actually provided the customer with a pretty decent system of basic design: all their cabinets are preprinted as templates in a handout. You punch them out (along with applicances) and glue them onto the floorplan of your kitchen. You can also do a wallplan. While this may sound much like the fold-up choo-choo you used to get on the train which you punched out and folded up, it works well, especially for newbies. At Despot, on the other hand, I was given a piece of graph paper with a buncha specs on the back. My kitchen fit amazingly well, aside from the floor in my house not being level. One nice thing about Ickea cabinets is that they have adjustable legs. The planning guides helped A LOT, as did my going into the empty kitchen, taking every measurement 3 times, and snapping out lines, remeasuring, and checking for squareness. The punchout templates indicate what you are putting where, and encourage you to consider door swing etc. I physically walked myself thru my mock kitchen, pretending to open dishwasher doors, etc. I got all the clearances right, my only problem was almost putting a handle in the wrong spot which wud interfere with the opening of the oven. This little "game" is useful also because it encourages the customer to do some of the initial planning, and provides a physical representation of what you are designing, almost a scale model. As with everything, though, pretty pictures seldom resemble reality. There is no substitute for remeasuring on site after designing. The installation video from Ickea was fairly useless, typically showing people making perfectly straight cuts with a handsaw and installing a full row of cabinets with a 2 foot level. It was 'free' though, so I taped over it. Walk on over to one of their stores if you can find one in your area. Pretend you're buying a kitchen, and analyze what they do. I'm quite happy with how things turned out.I might add that yes, particleboard ain't wood to me either. It is a convenient solution that works adequately and affordably. One big plus I found was when I decided to change doors to drawers, all I had to do was return them for a no-hassle exchange. That might be more difficult with your custom builder, but then again, maybe the change of heart would have been avoided through good advice.
*Wow, I just read some of the other posts. Seems there's quite a bit of negativity out there. My motto is if you can't say something nice, keep your mouth shut. Really, is it any wonder contractors have a reputation for being surly? Okay, enough flaming. I just want to add Kevin that your mistakes seem to boil down to two things:1. Reductionism. Preparing two-dimensional plans for three-dimensional installations. That piece of crappy graph paper that Despot uses has squares that are WAY too small, and looks nothing like a kitchen. Like I say, go over to Ickea and look at a better, if still imperfect, system. If you show a customer a mockup of what it'll look like from the aerial view and the frontal view, with real looking cabinets, they'll probly catch something they woulda missed otherwise.2. Lack of site visits. You just gotta see for yourself, or trust the customer to (like I did). I think I'm right in assuming that if you're working for Boxes R Us, that availability isn't a problem and you cud easily get stuff shipped in fast. This being the case, get the folks to go home and take a coupla Polaroids and bring em back to you. Maybe suggest that your department keep one handy and 'rent' it out to potential customers (sell them the film of course) and just credit the rental fee towards their purchase price. Then if you see something really wonky, go look at it. You'll still be on the job. Finally, I can't fault you for assuming a wall wud be straight, at least reasonably so. You have to do this otherwise cabinet manufacturers would be making out-of-square cabinets that were crooked. (Now, now. Keep it down all you hecklers!) But you can, and should, insist on your customers doing a detailed measurement, checking for straightness and squareness, and level, at certain points in the kitchen. Heck, you could even mark out on their plan where you want them to go and measure ("take measurements here, here, and here, run a string from here to here", and so on).And if they can't cope with that, you should suggest that your install crew go out and do it all for them. Hope this helps, without hurting.
*Can anyone suggest a source (website, perhaps?) that has an archive of kitchen floor plans? I mean, a source with LOTS of different plans that I can browse? I beleive that many solutions to kitchen design problems can be solved by looking at past projects, without reinventing the wheel.Thanks
*Kevin, If you seriously want to learn how to design with the installer and customer in mind, and gear your layouts to remodels as well as new construction, why don't you get out and install a cpl dozen kitchens and learn that way. All the books you can read and videos you can watch will give you an idea, but trust this old f*&k, nothin beats hands on experience so you can take the impossible and produce a beautiful thing, instead of using the excuse that you couldn't see what was behind or it was outta square or there was a bow in the wall. Good God boy, if it was easy anybody could do it. Use your head for more than a hat rack. Particle board, plywood, whatever. You take what the customer can afford and you install it. Good. And the best of luck to you Kevin.
*I just read the post from Joe Clark. You wouldn't be a former Canadian prime minister in a new career? I also read the other post, which seems to prove my point about the reputation of contractors. Being in the service industry myself I have learned the hard way that the best way to get people to do what you want is to be nice about it. Teaching people is all about PTT, i.e. Positive, To, Try. So I think it's great you're asking Kevin, and take the best suggestions you get and try them.As for Joe, I can't recommend anything specific I'm afraid, but there are perhaps thousands of books out there on kitchens and baths. You cud try another boxstore with books (or better yet, a used bookstore) and find yourself a couple. The main principle for kitchens seems to be the triangle principle, where fridge, stove, and work area are supposed to form a triangle so you're not retracing your steps when going from one to the other. Accordingly then supplies should be at hand. Work area, sink, and dish storage/dishwasher can form a second triangle. My own kitchen has one 14' long countertop and an island behind it. The stove and fridge are at one end of the countertop, the island is in the middle, forming one triangle. The sink is in the middle of the countertop, with the dishwashwer next to it. This forms another triangle with the work area. And therefore food preparation and dishwashing are in two separate sectors of the kitchen. I love the island by the way, it's great when people can sit and talk to you while you entertain them.
*Kevin, like SHGLaw, I *am* a little troubled by the fact that HD would use someone that is unprepared to do his job properly, as I would be troubled by having to deal with a hack in any of my travels. I will give you a pass because you knew enough to ask for help and admitted your mistakes, I have to respect that attitude. As for the particle brd/plywood/solid wood thing, don't lose any sleep over it, I have to think that the perceived toe-stepping had more to do with the fact that you said you worked at Home Depot.Adrian gave you a great place to learn about kitchen design, you really should look into it if you are serious about being a kitchen/bath designer. I can count the designers I respect on one hand and have fingers left over, so feel free to be a little intimidated and see if the Depot can spring for the costs of training.Most of your problems seem to result from bad site data, if you are responsible you need to get a checklist, to make sure your design will fit. To further assure your design will fit you need to become one with the manufacturers spec manuals, they will give you the specs you are missing. If you are working off of other peoples measurements you need to get a big red stamp that says "don't blame me, I didn't measure this job".As for the books on the rack, leave them there, they don't have anything you need to know in them. If you read some for free, you only underpaid by a bit.
*Kevin, philosopy aside, here are some tips I've picked up in my fledgling career--Leave plenty of room on inside corners for fillers. Not pretty, but allow for pulls, out-of-square walls, homeowners who can't read a tape...Drawers=good. Pullout shelves behind doors are a wasted step to operate.Provide a space for trash and recyclables. Big pullout "drawers" (full height of base cab) are great.Most work is done between the sink and the stove. Make this space as large and pleasant to use (windows, lights, drawers) as possible.Always provide some counter space next to fridge, between fridge and sink is best.Advise clients that though most fridges have reversable doors, some don't.Clip or round corners of any cabs near a walkway. Don't forget to include scribe strips or end panels for ends of runs.Triple-check that runs of uppers and lowers are the same length overall.Don't forget to include light rail if uppers are frameless.If you can't visualize quite how something will go together, don't leave it up to the installer. Figure it out, make notes, talk to the installer.Make a checklist of these and other common-sense tips. It's easy to forget something obvious, simply because it's obvious.Any one else with ideas to help Kevin, instead of trashing Home Depot (as fun as that is!)MM
*Trashing Home Depot is something of an art form around here. The problem with trying to give a meaingful hand to Kevin is that there are so many variables that it's impossible to help without sounding like the drivel in those kitchen magazines.Plenty has already been written here about general building issues, like square and plumb walls. Other stuff, which would seem obvious, like making sure your measurements add up and are consistent. Then there's the filler strip, or goof factor. And of course, the ever-present triangle theory.But these don't make for a good kitchen, or an interesting kitchen. Kitchen's are the most used public room in a house today, and they take one thing more than anything else: Thought. They are damn tough to design well. And I've never seen a well designed kitchen done solely on paper. I sit in the room, use manipulatives (like tables or ply on saw horses) to see if ideas that seem good actually work or make sense or feel right. Unlike other construction, you are putting more than walls, windows and doors: You are creating a defining room layout. Everything else in the room is just filler. I love kitchens.SHG
*"It's really hard to do good design without knowing a lot about cabinetmaking...."...and cooking. How thew cook cooks and what the cook cooks.There's custom, ands then there's Custom.
*I apologize for my use of the word "surly". I did think you guys came down rather hard on Kevin but I can understand where you come from. Now that I have thought about it a bit longer....I worked with a finish carpenter one summer (let's call him Lawrence cause that's his real name) (helping on installs) and the kitchens he designed and built were amazing, and the nonsense he had to put up with a lot of times was equally amazing. I learned a lot that summer, mostly that there was an awful lot I would never have the opportunity to learn.I have also seen so-called "finish carpentry" which cost a bundle split, move, and even fall off a wall onto somebody. (Not Lawrence's).But I have never seen an "out of the box" kitchen, even poggenpohl, look anything like one of Lawrence's, for any price. Whenever somebody screws up or does a crappy job, it hurts everyone (I should know about bad reputations, I'm a lawyer on sabbatical!!). But, in the long run, it'll just make all you Lawrences out there look that much better.
*Yup. I cook (try anyway), and that sure helps.
*As a weekend warrior/homeimprovement wannabe, who remodeled her kitchen 1-1/2 years ago WITH HD help (Krafmaid Cabs, though), I can offer this insight for Kevin. There is no quick way around communication; you have to spend time finding out what they want/like. Ask, ask, ask, then ask some more. Have them BRING in pictures. My brother, an architect, helped me enormously with such though provoking comments: 'how do you cook?','how often?','how many people cook?', 'don't have so many switches on the wall in one place that they're not intuitive', 'how BIG is the kitchen table and where will it go?','do you want the down lights to cast more or less shadow on the cabinets?'(this affects placement). It took me 6 months and many, many tweakings to the drawings to get my kitchen designed. I'm sure I drove my HD designer nuts, but I'm glad I obsessed over all of the above little details. Now I just need a bigger garage so I can buy more tools!
*Kevin,I may be a little late here but....Forget the kitchen triangle. Think about how a person cooks. You take something out of the refrigerator and put it in the microwave so don't have the microwave across the room. You go from refrigerator and pantry to food prep area to stove to table. Use arrows to draw pathways from one work area to the next. Alot of "pretty" designs turn out to be alot of walking back and forth. The best designs are those that have the least movement. Food prep areas need the most light, not the kitchen sink. Last, you don't need to fill the kitchen with cabinets....keep some of the upper walls free for your customers to personalize.
*Two thoughts:1. While designing our house and specially while determining the design of the kitchen; we looked at magazines and books about kitchen designs / layouts but we got the most useful information by going into high end open houses on Sunday afternoons. It seems as if the homes in our area have a rule that states that creativity can not be used in designing anything unless the house costs over $300K. So my advice is to visit open houses or the Builder's "Parade of Homes" to determine what looks good, what makes no sense, etc.
*Kevin,The errors that you made seem mostly to be errors of observation and experience. You appear to have been to involved in the design and layout, without steppping back and looking at whether or not it will actuall work in the space.As Mike stated above, develope and use a check list. Pilots use them for the simple reasons that it prevents them from overlooking the obvious. You can have a measurement section such as ceiling height, minus base cab height, minus countertop thickness, minus wall cab height, minus any other items such as that appliance garage. If you come up with a negative number you have a problem. Same type approach with cabinet runs. Seems you were too close to the trees to see the forest.Keep a list of the mistakes that you have made, and review it before finalizing a design. If you do make a mistake, evaluate whether or not is should be on the checklist.Spend some of your free time educating yourself. It may be a stretch to expect you to go out and get actual work experience with a cabinet installer, but maybe you could spend some time on the job with some of HD's installers, doesn't hurt to ask and I'm sure they will be more than willing to tell you about all of the mistakes that kitchen designers make. Also, check out some new houses that are for sale and open to the public, good source of ideas.Remember the six P's...Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance. Get organized, develope a system that works for you and you will be way ahead.Good LuckScott
*In my remodeling business, I find that Kevins experience is typical of the big box stores. I used to sell manufactured cabinets, so I am not opposed to using them in the right situation. I always discourage customers from getting their cabinets from the Depot's of the world because of the experience thing. If they do it anyway, I always review every part and piece to make sure that it will work. I measure the job myself, draw out what I want, give the drawings to the sales person, review their drawing for accuracy, inclusion of raised panels, toe kick skins, scribe mold, compatability of their crown mold with mine, in short everything. Now you can see why I discourage them from buying from HD. Oh yea, I install them myself too (I don't trust the production installers). If I can get them to go to a professional cabinet company (manufactured or custom), the professionals do all this work for me.
Don't always assume custom cabinets cost more than HD. I work with a Kitchen and bath store who's cabinets are price around the same as HD Kraftmaids highest quality. Also the finished result are nice quality cabinets, experience design around $800 which is refunded if you buy the cabinets and install, and what I like most the finish all matches. No dark wood cab next to sap wood.
I know someone who bought HD kraft maid cabinets this was the lower grade kraftmaid and the face frames were bowed on a majority of the cabinets. The installer (privet contractor) had to spend many extra hours installing charge considerably more.
Folks before you assume HD will save you money check all your options.
Mike
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I'm 8 months along as a kitchen designer with one of the big box stores. I've made a few boo-boos that were due to misunderstanding construction. I've built houses (post and beam, masonry) and done various construction things but nothing as detailed and picky as kitchen cabinets. Any helpful design hints that would help avoid goofs would be appreciated (my expediter would be estactic!).
Kevin