I’ve done fairly well at a few things so far: framing, putting up cedar shingles, electrical, plumbing and even crown molding. But I will be damned if I can get the technique for finishing drywall. Is this an either you get it or you don’t thing or does anyone have a tip they will pass along to save my butt. I think I play with it too long, trying to get it smooth and feathered out until it starts to set then I really muck it up.
At this point I don’t enjoy it either. I notice a lot of references to ‘the drywall guys’. Is this one reason why?
Thanks,
Steve
Replies
IMO it just takes practice and a little patience. I personally don't enjoy it at all, and therefore will gladly sub out this task. You will probably get better tips from those who are more experienced than myself, but what I've always found is that the secret to spreading it right lies in the angle of the knife, and how much pressure you put on it. This is what controls how much mud you leave on or take off.
What type of mud are you using? Some types are easier to work (with a tradeoff usually in hardness and/or setting time). I have found that non-ready mix is generally less frustrating to work, so I usually use a 90-minute setting-type compound with a ready-mix topping compound.
Myron Furgusen has a good book on the subject (it's a Taunton book I think), I definitely learned some stuff out of there.
You just want one tip?
You are playing with it, thin the mud and go like crazy.
Want another one?
How much a tip? Yes, I'll take as many as you'll give!
I've got Ferguson's book. He suggested not thinning until the 3rd coat or the skim coat. Of course, I don't do this as often as he does, he probably does it in his sleep. Everything looks so even and smooth in the book!
I am using all purpose ready mix which should give me plenty of time. I'm on the second coat which I thought would start to look good but right now it looks like that third coat will be a miracle.
I don't thin at all but I use light weight mud and mix it up before using.
busta :0)View Image
Steve, AndyL is right, a lot is practice and patience. You're between the second and third coats so I'm not sure this will help as much as it might have if you hadn't started yet. Most ready mix needs to be "mixed" before the first coat, (and all other coats too) A minute or two with a mud paddle and a 1/2" drill, sometimes a few ounces of water, makes a world of difference. The mud takes to the wall better, the tapes easier to set, and you don't have to work so hard with your knife. Use a 4" knife for the first coat, a 6" for the second, and a 10" for the third. Most guys start with a 6" but I think it leaves a layer of mud that's too wide and too thick. On seams with tapered edges you want the tape and mud to be below the surface after the first coat. This is a lot easier with a 4" knife. For inside corners, apply mud sparingly, set your tape, and leave it alone. Don't try to do too much, it'll just get ugly. Second coat, 6" knife for all the seams and again, don't over do it. (it's easier to do another coat and add mud then to sand off a thick, lumpy mess.) On the inside corners try doing only one side and let it dry before doing the other, much less aggravating if your still learning. Third coat, thin the mud a little more and use the 10" knife. If you need too, do another polish coat and wait for it all to be good and dry before you sand. Hope this helps! BUIC
Thanks for the responses. I was trying to do one side of a corner at a time but I kept getting some on the other side. So then I'd take it out and end up digging the first side. My patience is wearing thin and by the time I practice enough I will be done! LOL!
I did mix it a little but only the top half of the bucket. I need to pick up another one so I'll mix it up better this time. Too late for me to try the 4 inch but I still have some 6 inch left and move to the 10. I think I'll try thinning a bit too. It may be that I was trying to put too much on as well.
I guess I better pick up a lot of sand paper too...
If you have a lot of dry plaster to take off, try using you're knife as a plane. Same for when you get mud on the other side of a corner, when it's dry you can clean it up easier. I also use a wet abrasive sponge for problem areas, brings the surface down faster/less dust. It definatly takes time to learn to plaster well and there's no such thing as perfection just greater levels of smoothness. Still the whole process sucks and I sub out whenever I can.
Speaking of subs, my plaster guy apprenticed under his father, and for the first few years, he never got out of the closet. It seems that that's the best place to learn is in that nice cramped little room with all the inside corners.
Like you, I do just enough drywall that I will never get the practice needed. But I can get by on the smaller jobs. (Big ones get subbed out.)
For me, all seams and inside corners get taped with the mesh tape that's just a bit sticky. And all inside corners are done using a combination of a 6" knife, and a special inside corner tool. I apply the mud in rough-looking globs with the 6" (after taping), then smooth the corner from top to bottom (or vice-versa) using the corner tool. It smoothes both sides at once, and does a fair job of it.
On subsequent coats, I rarely need to use the corner tool, since the added coats are mostly for feathering out the edges.
Best luck.
"Thanks for the responses. I was trying to do one side of a corner at a time but I kept getting some on the other side. So then I'd take it out and end up digging the first side. My patience is wearing thin and by the time I practice enough I will be done! LOL!"
This is the only question I could bite into really as your post was pretty general.
Corners take thinned mud and the application is a glazing . [very little] If you are trying to coat one side and are having trouble cleaning the other side there are a few things you can do . But no longer than you are going to be practiceing , dont worry about a bit on the other side . It will scape off when its dry. I could go into depth , but you are going to be there that long .
Tim Mooney
Why won't you say something?
Will hearing anymore stupid advice prompt you?
Lots of good info here. Another question, do you ever get it so none of the mud ends up on the floor? or your face? It's frustrating enough then you hear this splat you know you will step in later.
One thing about ya Steve - you got the best name in the world!
Yes, mud gets in your eye, on the floor, everywhere especially when your learning. Did a job a while back and this black Lab dog was always pestering me, so as I was on the stilts I flicked some mud at him to make him go away. After I finished the 3 rooms, we had to do another 2 rooms and the owner told my guy who did the last two rooms that I'm so sloppy that I even got mud on the dog - LOL!
"Why won't you say something?"
The second thing you said ;
"Will hearing anymore stupid advice prompt you? "
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread as you already know.
There is some good information even in some threads that are part wrong.
There is some just plain solid information then they quit typing when they ended it .
Then theres ; , Im not a finisher and Im not going to answer the post , but Im gonna keep typing.
Edit my post to you "are not" going to be doing it that long so why should I wear my self out. Give him the quick fix , not the right one if he were going to pursue it . He stated he wasnt going to be doing it. He read a book that he said the author doesnt thin his mud till the finish coat . One of three things; He was wrong , the author was wrong , or you and I dont know squat . Go figgure.
My editorial on just two things mentioned just for the fun of reading ;
I feel like crying when my steel knifes break from being worn thin, for thats when I enjoy them most . I wouldnt have a stainless knife stuck up my Bazooka. LOL. When an old knife is filed every day those are the best knifes for the finish coat because of total control of edges. When a texture coat is applied there is no sanding using a worn steel knife because there is no edges. I have never been able to kill the edges to suit me with a stainless. I wouldnt want to try because of fatiuqe.
I was going to mention another but I forgot what it was now .
I guess the reason I dont respond much to these anymore[drywall posts] is that there is so much different information that Im sure the ones reading trying to learn are totally confused . If they arent confused they are behind the ones who are because at least confusion is trying to make sense of the post.
Tim Mooney
Hey Steve,
Most people in your situation give up. They hate drywall, and avoid it every chance.
I take a few drywall jobs a year. Tips--well, I don't have a lot of tips except for reading back issues of FHB. The best tip I'd give is to not sand after your first coat. Very little after your second coat should be necessary.
I'd like to know what causes paper tape to bulge. Is it a spot where not enough mud was originally behind it? Not wet enough mud? This is one problem I have not solved. Anyone know?
MD, this from a guy that subs out the big ones, does the small ones hisself. My experience with the lifting tape is that maybe you spread the setting mud too thin and took too long to get the tape on it that it dried out just enough to screw you. Some ways I have tried to solve the problem was to use a setting compound to imbed the tape (dry or readimix) and thin it so she's sloppy. Another was to wet the tape b/4hand with a sponge or whatever. That was just another PITA to deal with. You could (tho I don't) use mesh tape. All of them seem to work to correct the problem. best of luck.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Steve,
Finishing is an art form - it cannot be learned rapidly! You should have asked us before you started, however, on the last coat use a light mud such as Plus 3. If you can get the LaFarge Rapid Coat, that's the best mud out there. For the last coat do not use an all purpose mud - to hard to sand for you. Now just apply the light mud as best you can, then sand the hell out of it, then reapply.
After you think everything is smooth, prime it and then touch it up till you think it's fine. A couple of issues ago, they had a pullout on finishing, I was floored when I saw a long seam 14 inches off the ground. Imagine doing a whole house with seams 14 inches off the ground, even a midget would give up.
Next time, hire a finisher, better and cheaper for you!
Drywall is a trade I am generally happy with my results and unhappy with my speed. It takes me w-a-y too long to make money on it. So I have a question to anyone familiar with the speed-rockers who roll through production housing in blinding speed:
They're using ready-mix, I assume. They have better equipment than I - If I was looking to make money on rocking I would buy one of those sander / vacuum combination tools that don't hurt my eyes, leave me white, and do the elbow grease, and stilts. But they can't be doing three coats ??? I would think they have to do two to get a passable finish. How do those guys move so fast? They really don't do a bad job though a lot of their work I've seen I wouldn't be happy with.
So what works for me is mixing my own mud to the consistency that works well for me (time-consuming), hand sanding because I can't justify the expense of better equipment, and using a 48" trowel for my final coat so there is a coat across the whole surface of board (paint looks better, gives kind of a plaster effect.
remodeler
Remodeler,
Wow, a 48" throwel on the final coat, now that is like plastering. Yes, pro's use ready mix for a larger job, say over 20 boards. If it's less than 20 boards, for the 2nd coat I use Easy-Sand 5, 20, 45 or 90 or Durabond 90 (the ultimate) which are setting compounds. I can start and finish 20 boards in one day and sand it down the next day.
I've heard guys say I can do everthing in construction but when it comes to finishing "I just can't do it". That's because, it being an art form, it's not measuring, cutting and installing such as lumber, sheetrock, etc. It takes months of practice from a good teacher to get it right. When I started out I was taught by a fellow whom I consider the best finisher that I have ever seen and after a week he said "Your so .. stupid you'll never learn this". Well, it took me a while as it does everyone. It's practice and more practice and for someone to explain to you how much to thin the mud, how to hold the knife, why this happens, light conditions, and OH Lord the butt joints,etc. Now when we work together, he still puts it on nicer than I do but I always tell him "when it's painted you can't tell mine from yours". He uses stainless steel knives, does it by hand. Now why stainless steel blades - because they don't bend in the middle when pulling with them and they don't rust and they don't wear out as fast as the blue metal ones.
Someone asked why the tape would bubble? Most probably because the sheetrock underneath it is loose or damaged. You must clean out the loose/damaged area and then apply the mud into it. Also for taping, you must use the all purpose mud and not the light one as the all purpose has more binder in it and holds the paper tape well.
Also being it an art form - no two finishers do it the same way. It's in the technique.
Never use mesh tape on long seams! Why we use tape is to bind the two boards together, make them one board. You all know if you puit mud in the middle of theboard it will not crack, but on a seam without any type of tape, they will crack because of the movement of the boards between the studs. Paper tape will not "give" while mesh tape gives - that is, it's elastic. So when one applies force on the long seam, there is "movement" of the tape. Also, since the mesh tape has an adhesisve on it, the mud will negate the adhesive on the mesh tape, thus the mesh tape is not binding the two boads together. Confirm it, get a piece of mesh tape and pull it apart on the two sides - see how it "gives".
"Wow, a 48" throwel on the final coat"
As I was struggling with my 14" I about fell off my bucket laughing so hard trying to imagine someone using such a thing.
I read that mud can be applied with a roller. Would that make a good texture if you left it instead of smoothing it out?
Steve,
I'm from New Jersey - no texture here except on hotel ceilings sometimes, so I don't have an answer. They roll it yes to skim the entire drywall after finishing it for the Level 5 Finish and then sand it. What this does is eliminate "photobanding" - thus you are painting on one type of surface instead of two different surfaces (drywall and joint compound) for a much better wall and ceiling.
I found several excellent drywall videos at my local public library including one from Taunton. There are several good drywall books there too. I was very surprised at the top quality, professional grade material, covering just about every facet of construction, available to me for free. Check out your library- It may surprise you what you will find.
Kevin Halliburton
I dont sand at all until the last coat. Use your sheetrock knife and scrape off the high spots.
Last coat, pay attn to the angle of your sheetrock knife. It should water ski across the mud. Make it a very steep angle. It actually changes the sheen of the mud if you do it right.
Most of the rockers that I have seen that appear to really know what they are doing have only their thumb and one or two other fingers wrapped around the handle of the sheetrock knife and the remainder are spread out on the blade for control.
I try VERY hard to sub out anything over 5 boards...more than that and I might take up smokin.
The fiberglass mesh tape is softer than paper when it is loose in your hand .... but on the wall embedded in a mud matrix it is VASTLY stronger than paper tape. It is also much easier for beginners to use. I have fixed plaster ceiling cracks with it and there is no way you'll ever do that with paper tape. Try to tear the glass tape, that's a better indicator of it's strength on the wall. It is faster to do five or even six coats than it is to try to get too much done in too few coats. The later coats are just refinements on the problem areas. With practice you will get more done with each coat, but for those who are learners use lots of coats and little sandpaper.... your life will be happier. Even for the best finishers three coats is pushing things.... quality sometimes suffers.