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Please help to settle this difference in opinion. Say a corner room is 12′ by 12′ in a home with a hip-truss roof. Since a standard hip-truss system has a girder truss 6 feet off the corner with hip-trusses hanging off it, half the room has ceiling members running one direction, while the other half runs perpendicular to them.
Ok, now it is time to hang the cieling gyp. Would you hang three 4×12 foot sheets of gyp and call it a day, or follow the cieling members and have a butt-joint downn the middle?
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... i'd furr the ceiling and run all 3 sheet the same way, but then , we always furr our ceilings..
*b WBA At Your ServiceMike, Seriously, ? Every room in the house ? Are you shimming to straighten ? Do you do this over I joists as well ?Tim
*every ceiling.. every house...old habits die hard...it's pretty much a new england thing...... i don't know if the tract builders are still doing it.. but the custom builders and remodelers still are...
*Mike, I'd object to that technique unless you painstakingly firestopped every span. One of the nice features of drywalling directly to the bottoms of the joist is the limited amount of air that could feed a fire.blue
*Teo, I'd want to eliminate the butt joint, but have been told (unsubstantiated) that drywall has a grain and should be run perpicular to the frame members. I'd run the three and call it a day.blue
*blue.... if the attic is cellulose there will be no gaps for air..also... the forces working on the girder trss pulling in two directions cry out for furring as a stabilizer to fasten the rock to..other than cost.. i have never heard of a negative about furring a ceiling....
*>but have been told (unsubstantiated) that drywall has a grainOnce saw a demonstration. Cut two 1' x 4' lengths of drywall, one in each direction (one lengthwise and one widthwise). Rest the ends on sawhorses just less than 4' apart. The piece cut widthwise will sag much more over time than the other piece. Don't know if it's actual grain or not, but it certainly is sag-resistance. Come to think of it, it was in a long-ago FHB article, me thinks.
*I'm with Mike..always furr out.every ceiling every room. ( but then again I have to warrant my work for 6 years)
*Mark, why would furring a ceiling affect a 6 year warranty? We don't furr around here. If the bottom chords of the trusses move enough to affect the drywall, it would also affect the furring that you would put on. If someone could please explain why a second layer of lumber is necessary to install the board, I'm going to start recommending the same furring method on every surface, including: both sides of the exterior walls, both sides of the interior partitions, both sides of the floor joists on the second floor, the top of the first floor joists, the bottom of the ceiling joists/trusses, and the top of the roof trusses/rafters. If furring is so necessary, lets start furring everything!blue
*geesh, blue...easy , big fella..no one said it was neccessary... what i said was that we furr every ceiling we do..and i do realize it's a regional thing.. i just happen to like the region..so, if it's ok wit u,, we'll just keep on keepin on..merrily furring our ceilings... not experiencing truss uplift,..not having to drill joists for electrical runs...getting a 2d direction to tie my partitions to without blocking....holding up the 6 mil vapor barrier.. which holds up the cellulose in the attic... so i can remodel without dumping 18 inches of cellulose down around my ears...that damn unneccessary furring sure does come in handy.....hah, hah, hah......
*Mike, how does furring prevent truss uplift?Why can't you run your wires on top of the ceiling joist like we do?Why does a partition need a parallel tie?Mike, I would go insane if I had to put the senseless, extra lumber into every ceiling in every house. I find the practice to be senseless, especially in these days when everyone is chirping about saving trees and preserving the enviorment. I fing the task to be ecologically wasteful and should be abated pronto, in every corner of the earth. Imagine how many trees could remain standing today, if we simply framed things in an "adequate" manner. Now remember, if furring is required to be "adequate", then it should be on every surface. I won't begrudge you your regional idiosyncrisies, but I will always know that it is wasteful! If the tradesmen won't rise up an put a stop to the wastefull practices, who will?blue
*blllluuuuuu.......<>.. i don't have a clue.. but i've never had truss uplift either >ahhhhh.. because there's a floor on top of the joists ?.. i don't know.....don't your customers trip over them ? or do you tuck 'em under the carpet? <>it don't .. but i've got nailing in either direction.. either the joists.. or the furring at right angles to the joists...and the best reason of all... 'cause we like it like that....hah, hah, hah.....i could certainly save a lot of time and money.....but i think i'll just keep on furrin... oh.. and ,yeah.. i have furred walls ..in and out..and i've furred roofs for ventilation... matter of fact i've furred 'bout every surface know to man....you don't move fast enough... i might furr you.. straighten out some a dem kinks....
*mike gotta agree witcha. arouns here the framer boys can put up twisted lumbah with the best of them. i guess with a little texture and some flat paint most folks can't tell the diff. cc
*So...Crosscut, do the framers put up twisted furring too? Or is that some special type of lumber that reamins true in all conditions?Around here, they never furr, and rarely texture. And yes, everything looks great...for more than 6 years...blue
*I think I'm understanding now Mike. Around your parts, the electricians can only drill wall studs, but the bits won't drill ceiling joist.If the reasoning is so great, why don't you apply the same technique to every surface? Your avoiding the question. Yur Buddy Crosscut only wants the ceilings to be furred too...I don't understand that...So, because an electricial might run a wire in the ceiling, perpindicular to the joist, you furr every room???? Even with roof trusses?????It's a shamefull waste of resources. Luckily the lumber that is used for furring is low grade pine, the kind that twists, bows, warps and checks easily, even after the board is hung.Stop that wasteful practice you owl killer!blue
*blue, whoa i certainly did not mean to raise shackles but furring does have practical applications. did you ever see a beaver shivering?
*I'm kinda as confused as Blue! The furring material I see is always the worst thing at the yard. I'd think all them little twists and bows would cause more havoc than what every it does to help. Mike, do you consider an un-furred ceiling a lesser product? Or....is it really more habit than anything? Keep in mind.....I don't care how much wood you decide to waste......that's all them damn Dems that wanna tell ya how to live! Jeff
*..i think furring ceinlings is a new england holdover from the wood lathe days with horsehair plaster ceilings...it also was needed for the old 12 " celotex ceilings that you used to blind staple..anyhow.. in RI, ceilings are furred, if you don't like it , don't do it.....i like it , i use it to my advantage.. and i use it in my designs.. it makes kitchen soffit building easier.. , wiring and plumbing easier, and it makes remodeling easier.. if i want to hang a heavy ceiling fixture. i can fasten a piece of 3/4 ply and it will be flush with the furring.. the blue board / drywall goes right over..if i have intersecting trayed or vaulted ceilings,, the furring facilitates it....blue don't like furring because he don't get paid to furr... thinks it's a waste of time and money.. but he's never done it .. so what would he know.....do i think it makes a superior job.. you bet...here's one.. any of you guys ever sheath with Thermo-ply (structural-red label) ?i've built about 4 buildings with it.. foil-faced laminated paper about 1/8" thick....walls only... it limits you to horizontal siding... but with studs @ 16" oc.. the clapboards / or / vinyl siding or/ fibercement gets plenty of nailing...the point is..i work with a lot of innovative products and i'm not afraid to try something new.. or to keep something old that is working just fine... b but then, i still think spotted owl taste's just like chicken....
*furring.....we use steel tophat for that , screwed to the bottom chords. Why? Having built both ways, I am convinced of the superior finish of a furred ceiling. In fact in general you will be classed as a hack in Australia if you do otherwise. Furring gives a superior finish, eliminates cracking and popping.We back block our joints and use expansion joints where needed. The furring runs right through the ceiling plane over the top of internal top plates. ( external plate has a ribbon to provide clearance for the furring. Internals are pinned to the furring.)Yes, an un-fuured ceiling is a lesser product and as I have already mentioned, when i have to warrant for 6 years, I don't need the hassle of returning to a job to fix things that occur from not doing the job right first time.kind regardsmark
*When I moved to New England, I was like blue asking why the waste but having done it for awile, I love it. It has advantages Mike hasn't mentioned. I think it started when rough framing members were used and they varied in depth by as much as 3/4". Some flat strapping and a few shims provided a flater cieling for the lathers to work to. Studioes have shown that a floor system with strapping under it for the cieling below (assuming a two story job is stronger and more vibration free than one with solid blocking or bridging at midpoint of the span. Fireblocking and ventilation are issues that can be addressed.A strapped cieling will transmit less noise from the floor above to the room below.butt joints in sheet rock end up fastened better because they have 2-1/2" surface to attach to instead of 1-1/2"It can be laid out and placed to help you with large crown moldings when trimming out.If the house is framed with trusses for the roof at 24" oc you can strap at 16" and eliminate those sagging cielings.
*Although I can see some of the pros that you fellas have been mentioning concerning furring... making a 24"o.c. span into 16" o.c. , layouts for crown, soundproofing (seems to work if you use the metal channel stuff) etc... I am still feeling pretty compelling agreement with Blue. For instance; how would furring have any effect on truss uplift? unless maybe all 'dem extra boards add enough weight that the trusses just have a hard time lifting 'dem ceilings. I guess I agree that it probably is maybe better than not furring, but like Blue says, "Why don't we then furr all of the framing? where do we draw the line?
*mark.. diversity is part of what makes america great....you do it your way.. and i'll do it mine...just don't tell me i'm wasting my time.....
*Yea Mark, don't tell Mike he's wasting his time....let me do that!Mike, you are wasting your time. YOu guys haven't stated one compelling reason yet. The best argument was the quiet issue. I'm not buying the stiffer issue, because if that was true, they'd make us run the strapping in the basements as well as the first floor.The firestopping issues are real, and obiously ignored. Mark claims that he runs his strapping above the partitions. I wonder if he does something to limit the possible drafting?Anyways, strap the hell out of your houses. Just don't try to put that crappy #6 stuff in mine, especially if you aren't going to firestop every joist span. If you try to put that stuff up in my house, you'll be ripping it out if you want to get paid!strapless and happy.blue
*blue , was that you in the strapless gown ?...i did have one inspector who made me firestop the furring.. wanted one cross piece every 4'..he died....Mike
*So Mike, is that what we've been smelling in the dumpster? lol
*I live in Montreal, Quebec where we get some nice cold weather in the winter. All new homes are furred on every ceiling, downstairs included. Furring is also used on the interior and exterior of all insulated walls. This gives a air space that adds to the -value of the walls and top floor ceiling, also keeps the exterior siding off the plywood nice and dry. Our roof trusses are spaced at 24"oc and our floor joist at 19.3"oc. Furring narrows the span to 16"oc for the drywall to stay nice and flat. I've done it both ways, furring seems like a waste of time and wood but in the long run, when the house is completed, it facilitates and speeds up alot operations. Examples: I put 6" wide on perimeter of ceilings for crown moldings, 6" wide bottom of exterior walls for base board, 6" wide on top of windows for hanging blinds, extra for bathroom towel racks, extra on ceiling for fixtures or hangings, extra on walls for picture hangings. It also ties the trusses together making them perfectly space and parallel with each other. Ties ceiling joists together keeping them from twisting... etc..All said and done, it is hard to believe, but the job progresses faster, it has many more pros than cons and around here, where houses are built to strict standards, a house done without furring is amateur work and cheap.
*Kevin, I'll take the amatuer and cheap!blue
*blue, that's fine with me! Without amateur and cheap work people would not have a standard to judge well built homes to poorly built homes.
*Kevin, at least I can sleep at night knowing that I haven't needlessly killed those spotted owls.blue
*As long as you eat 'em then it isn't actually killing them needlessly.
*blue, better start building with steel so you can sleep!
*mark... don't you think the spotted owls taste more like piping plover than chicken?
*Now see Kevin. Instead of finding the middle ground and using the wood as wisely as possible, you want to waste tons of it, then tell me to use steel. If we all built wisely, using as little as possible, there would be plenty of owl habitat left. Instead, we've spent too many generations needlessly wasting a lot of framing lumber. Besides strapping (an entire layer of wasted lumber), many people put bridging (squeaks) and I've seen way too many 2x12 headers used in non-bearing situations. In fact, a lot of the old timers use 2x12 headers on all first floor openings, regardless of loads. They're the same type of carpenter that would call me an amatuer, because I use 2x4 "hillbilly" headers in the non bearing situation. Of course, I always consider the source and keep note that I've never had a callback any of the above "indescretions". Also, Kevin, I've done a lot of steel stud framing. That's one area that I learned a lot on. I learned that a 10 high wall could be adequatly framed with 2x3 metal studs on 24" centers. That fact definitly altered my wood framing idealology. blue
*Ok Mike...enough with the wise cracks. If you want your owls to taste like chicken, why not just eat chicken?blue
*no blue.. you didn't read it correctly...the owls taste like piping plover.... not chicken...actually ... it 's the punch line of a story...kinda like.."he blew a seal...no, no, really ,, it, it was just ice cream!.....hey.. how's the florida plans?ever read "Killing Mr. Watson" ?
*Actually I did get the joke, and I actually thought it was cleverly funny. My reply was a lame attempt to add a little humor.I'mn not too big of a book reader, especially novels. I've never heard of Killing Mr. Watson.My Florida plans are unfolding nicely. My goal was always to avoid another Michigan winter. So far, most of the pieces of the puzzle have fallen into place. I'm still waiting for someone to buy my place here...I've finally gotten it ready for market. My daughter's place next door sold before they got it on the market. They're happy and the buyer is happy. Whoever buys this place will also be happy. It's just a nice place to live, except for winter. blue
*Hey Blue!! What's up with this Florida talk ? Are you planning on moving down there? or just doing the "snowbird thing" for the harsh months ? I just recently returned to the northland from our attempt to beat the wintertime blues via Texas. We lasted three years before the call of the homeland lured us back. (heck, it was even winter time when we moved back. How dopey is that?)
*Mark, i'm as good as gone. I like heat a lot more than ice. Actually I like it when it heats up...my herniated discs feel better.I'm heading to Jupiter Florida (in Palm Beach county). There's a little sub about 1/4 mile from the ocean that I have my eye on. I'd rather be trapped in the air conditioning for 6 months than be trapped in the house trying to avoid the cold. I've already tossed all my ice scrappers and snow shovels.blue
*hey blue.. met the principal of the new charter school in the bloomfield hills area last weekend..is dis a small whirl 'er what?
*Good for you dude! I sincerely wish you all the best ! Are you retireing or do you plan to hang up your shingle down there? Off the top of my head, I can think of three things that you are going to have to do... 1) Learn the art of deep sea fishing. I know I never was able to figure it out! 2) develop an affinity for Jimmy Buffet Music. This shouldn't be difficult. 3) Learn to speak spanish. You'll understand when you get down there. Again I say Good for you! When we moved to Texas, I gave my snowblower to my sister. After we moved back I felt pretty sheepish, so I bought her a new one and took the old one back.
*Mark, 1)I'm not deep sea fishing, but I might do a little duck hunting. 2)Jimmy Buffet? Is he anything like Jimi Hendrix? If so, we'll get along just fine.3)Spanish? NOpe...I'm not leaving the good ole USA. English is still the official language here. When I meet someone that lives in this country and doesn't speak English, I have a great tip for them: "LEARN ENGLISH"!I'm not quite retired but I doubt I'll be running any rough framing crew. I might not do any Carpentry. We'll just have to wait and see. blue
*Charter Principal eh? Bloomfield Hills doesn't need charters. They already have some of the richest private schools in the country. They also have the richest public schools. I hope you didn't tear his (her) head off and impale it on a stake for stealing away public money from the huge, wasteful, governmental monopoly called "public schools".blue
*me ?... i'm a pussycat....
*Hey why if the spotted owl tastes like chicken,And frog legs taste like chicken...How come the McNuggets don't?
*blue, I commend you on your concerns about wood conservation. If you want to get picky about lumber waste why don't you complain about using 2x6s for exterior studs? There are alot of places in a home framing that could be minimized but my clients don't want to live in a pop cycle stick house. They want large, energy efficient, quality homes and I build what they want. Florida a good place to be if you're concerned about wasting wood; they substitute alot of it with concrete.
*Kevin, the use of 2x6's accomplishes something: more space for insulation. It is a valid reason to use the additional lumber. Also, on tall walls, the use of 2x6's is required to provide the needed strength. Again, I see that as necessary and efficient.I still don't see the need to strap ceilings, unless your going to strap everything (floors, walls, partitions, roofs, soffits, etc.) which would be the ultimate in stupidity and waste. Since strapping is such a good idea, please explaing to me why you don't strap walls and floors.blue
*blue,you are perfectly correct when stating that 2x6 do something, ability to add more -value to a wall. As I stated earlier, all exterior walls and insulated ceilings ARE strapped for many reasons but the important one is the ability to add more -value to the system by creating a trapped air space behind the sheetroc. This is very close to your justification of using 2x6 to add more -value except the furring strips also do much more. Our houses are also strapped outside to receive many types of siding, to keep it off the plywood creating an air space keeping everything dry. Strapping on interior walls is only used to bump them out, like any other spacers you might use. We don't strap them because they are not a cold wall and do not require an air space. Strapping on a floor is not needed, the plywood holds the joists straight. Strapping on the ceiling is done because it ties the joists together holding them straight and believe it or not makes putting up the sheathing much faster even if you account for the time to strap. Rockers here will not install if it is not strapped. Also our floor joists are spaced at 19.3" and the roof trusses at 24" so the strapping closes these spans to 16" which is much better for the sheetroc. This technique is not just because we have too much lumber up here in Canada, it is still an extra cost to the contractors and even the ones that build 3, 300, 3000 strip homes a year strap their cheapest homes. It works but change is slow, more so for things that the bennifits are only noticed in the long-term.
*Kevin, I'm afraid that I'm not too clear on why strapping the underside of a floor would speed up the sheathing installation. Could you elaborate on this?Jon
*easier for the rockers to hit a 1x4 than the edge of 2x material, also easier for them to secure butt joints, while you are at it try to put in blocking for trim etc. I am not a big fan of it but do it now and then to help even out ceilings in remodels, always have to provide draft stopping as someone noted earlier.
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Please help to settle this difference in opinion. Say a corner room is 12' by 12' in a home with a hip-truss roof. Since a standard hip-truss system has a girder truss 6 feet off the corner with hip-trusses hanging off it, half the room has ceiling members running one direction, while the other half runs perpendicular to them.
Ok, now it is time to hang the cieling gyp. Would you hang three 4x12 foot sheets of gyp and call it a day, or follow the cieling members and have a butt-joint downn the middle?